Jesus dying on the cross

[quietthinker]

That very well may be true, but why the old testament when there certainly was violence? Jesus and God are the same, why did the time period of the old testament happen? Was it all simply for His glory?

The fall distorted Man's view of God. He now perceived an angry God that needed appeasing. They replaced God's dynamic present self with that of images of all sorts. The way they perceived God is in many respects the way they viewed themselves and others ie, insecure, quick to hate and hold grudges and a long memory of wrongs either done to them or guilt for having done themselves and quick to accuse.

Even Israel from whom the Prophets came who wrote of God had a natural propensity to understand from these presumptions.
Many of the things they attributed to God saying and doing, for instance, violence in both speech and action, are the result of their own misunderstanding of the nature of God. We can deduct this from Jesus and the words of the Apostles who tell us that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

 

[Hiddenthings]

We can deduct this from Jesus and the words of the Apostles who tell us that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

All true, though it would be a mistake to think He doesn’t shape even the darkness according to His own will.

 

[quietthinker]

All true, though it would be a mistake to think He doesn’t shape even the darkness according to His own will.

I think darkness is totally alien to God and that he has nothing to do with it.
If God were to manipulate events in the universe, the word 'free' would be meaningless.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I think darkness is totally alien to God and that he has nothing to do with it.
If God were to manipulate events in the universe, the word 'free' would be meaningless.

He created darkness

 

[quietthinker]

He created darkness

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Hiddenthings]

How do you come to that conclusion?

What was in the beginning?

 

[Hiddenthings]

In the beginning, there was darkness, and God said, "Let there be light."

The foundational truth is this: where God is absent, chaos reigns. Yet God allows this contrast so that humanity might come to understand the true nature and beauty of His light.

The separation of light from darkness is not only an act of creation, it's a foundational principle: a revelation that light and darkness are distinct, and that clarity begins with their division.

These are absolute truths, unquestionable both scripturally and spiritually.

“And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.”

This statement highlights the benefit of light as contrasted with darkness. This is especially true regarding the Truth, for all that is good and noble springs from it (John 3:19–21).

Just as light was essential to bring order from chaos in physical creation, so too is it the first necessary step in the formation of God's spiritual creation. The light of divine truth must first enter the heart of an individual to shape them according to God’s purposes (2 Corinthians 4:6).

Like in the beginning, this light is brought into being through the Word of God. Through this process, a person moves from darkness into “his marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9).

The creative act recorded here likely corresponds to the earth’s rotation, allowing the sun’s rays to gradually penetrate the surrounding mists and clouds. Similarly, the Truth was initially only faintly perceived (Romans 16:25), with the full clarity and significance revealed at the resurrection and glorification of the Lord (Matthew 4:16).

Every natural act of God has a corresponding spiritual fulfillment.

 

[quietthinker]

The foundational truth is this: where God is absent, chaos reigns.

Isn't God omnipresent?

The separation of light from darkness is not only an act of creation, it's a foundational principle: a revelation that light and darkness are distinct, and that clarity begins with their division.

Clarity for ? Didn't the angels have clarity?....clarity about?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Isn't God omnipresent?

What has that got to do with the existence of darkness?

Clarity for ? Didn't the angels have clarity?....clarity about?

It is both a natural and spiritual reality: darkness preceded light. " And the evening (dark) and the morning (light) were the first day"

“The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” — John 1:5

God is the author of both natural and spiritual laws. As I mentioned, these creative principles are absolute truths. In the realm of natural law, you won’t find a single scientist who would deny that light dispels darkness, and the same truth applies spiritually: when divine light shines upon the mind, it illuminates and transforms.

And yes, the Angels have absolute clarity when it comes to these principles.

There are more in Genesis 1.

God not only allowed darkness but he can form and shape it how He Wills.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@quietthinker

What's interesting about darkness which many Christians don't understand is that Darkness is not a physical substance, it's simply the absence of light.

This is a fundamental, observable truth in physics and everyday experience.

If God chooses not to place His Presence in a space, it simply means He has not yet created there, that’s all. And even in that darkness, He remains sovereign, free to act as He wills.

Here is an example.

Jeremiah 4:23“I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.”

What do you see?
What does the Earth represent?
What does the Heavens represent?

 

[quietthinker]

What has that got to do with the existence of darkness?

Im bouncing off your statement in post #27

 

[Hiddenthings]

Im bouncing off your statement in post #27

Are you suggesting that God’s omnipresence cannot coexist with darkness? Everything that exists or doesn't has its origin in Him. So if the universe is, at its core, “nothingness,” is He not present even there?

1 Peter 2:9 “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”

Jeremiah 4:23“I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.”

How can God call his people out of darkness, if darkness did not exist?

It's unfortunate what Christians have done to this subject but one day if He Will's they will know.

Light is divine. Scripture tells us not only that God dwells in unapproachable light (1 Timothy 6:16), but also that “God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all” (1 John 1:5).

So not only does He seperate light from the darkess in our sphere he does so beyond our knowing in a place of light beyond our comprehension.

The very first act of God’s creative power in bringing order out of chaos was to introduce light, specifically, in relation to the earth...and then Israel (Jer 4:23) and then us (1 Peter 2:9).

It’s incredible that He graciously brings light out of darkness, condescending to meet us where we are.

 

[quietthinker]

How can God call his people out of darkness, if darkness did not exist?

The darkness referenced above is ignorance and rebellion. I notice you oscillate between the darkness of night and the darkness of ignorance/ rebellion. I think conflating the two is problematic.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The darkness referenced above is ignorance and rebellion. I notice you oscillate between the darkness of night and the darkness of ignorance/ rebellion. I think conflating the two is problematic.

Darkness is a physical reality, just as ignorance is a spiritual one. Scripture uses the creation account symbolically to illustrate this truth.

Take, for example, Jeremiah 4:23: “I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.”

Here, notice how the prophet uses “earth” to represent the common people or the lower classes, and “heavens” to symbolize rulers and those in high positions of authority.

Problematic? In what way? It sounds like you were about to make a point but didn’t finish.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

Admittedly and not proudly I find myself not getting emotional when others/pastors talk about how Jesus had to die on the cross for us and the suffering He felr...yes it is absolutely terrible, devastating, and I can't imagine...but in my mind I just keep thinking about why did it have to be "set up like that" meaning why out of all the possible ways for us to be saved did it have to be that way? I realize like Paul says who are we mere humans to ask questions.

God said through Moses:

"And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance." (Deuteronomy 21:22-23)

When Christ hung on the cross (the tree), he was made a curse for us, so that he might redeem us from the curse that sin brought into this world.

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" (Galatians 3:13)

This is why the cross was God's chosen means of redemption.

 

[Hiddenthings]

God said through Moses:

"And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance." (Deuteronomy 21:22-23)

When Christ hung on the cross (the tree), he was made a curse for us, so that he might redeem us from the curse that sin brought into this world.

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" (Galatians 3:13)

This is why the cross was God's chosen means of redemption.

Can you see how this goes deeper?

Hebrews 9:28 (ESV): “So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.”

And

Romans 6:10 (ESV): “For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.”

Your above post is close but there is more!

 

[quietthinker]

Darkness is a physical reality, just as ignorance is a spiritual one. Scripture uses the creation account symbolically to illustrate this truth.

Take, for example, Jeremiah 4:23: “I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.”

Here, notice how the prophet uses “earth” to represent the common people or the lower classes, and “heavens” to symbolize rulers and those in high positions of authority.

Problematic? In what way? It sounds like you were about to make a point but didn’t finish.

It is problematic because your presumption that darkness emanates from God is not the foundation of either Jesus or the apostles.

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It is problematic because your assumption that darkness emanates from God is not the foundation of either Jesus or the apostles.

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

Ah, this speaks to the very character and nature of God, not to what He has created. His dwelling place is described as “unapproachable light,” which exists beyond the boundaries of the known universe. Otherwise, you’re left with the dilemma of asking: who created the universe with all its darkness? And deep down, you already know the answer.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@quietthinker

Isaiah 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being (prosperity) and create calamity (disaster), I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Understanding that God created darkness offers profound insight into His loving care and the way He disciplines His children. He places this careful work with no other.

Hebrews 12:11 “For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.”

What’s truly unfortunate is when a Christian believes their suffering or discipline comes from a fallen angel, rather than recognizing its true origin.

It's a tragic reflection on Christianity that so many still do not truly know the character and purpose of God.

 

[quietthinker]

It's a tragic reflection on Christianity that so many still do not truly know the character and purpose of God.

ditto.