Jesus dying on the cross

[Hiddenthings]

ditto.

I should add, Quiet, that my last comment wasn’t directed at you personally, but rather at those who believe a false god is the one bringing trials and discipline into their lives.

 

[quietthinker]

I should add, Quiet, that my last comment wasn’t directed at you personally, but rather at those who believe a false god is the one bringing trials and discipline into their lives.

Jesus was well aware of a false god who masquerades as genuine, in fact he identified him and his purpose.

John 8:41-44
You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

John 10:10
The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Jesus was well aware of a false god who masquerades as genuine, in fact he identified him and his purpose.

John 8:41-44
You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

John 10:10
The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Have you studied John 8?

Who was an actual murderer from the beginning?
In what way did the Serpent speak from his own resources? (clue is "desires")

I'm sure you can piece it together what precisely was in the mind of Christ when speaking to the theme of "whose father"

Jesus uses personification here to describe the spiritual lineage of the "Jews" (v. 22). At the beginning, the serpent spoke the very first lie, "You will not surely die" (Gen 3:4). This lie, accepted and acted upon by Eve, brought sin and death into the world. Thus, the serpent became the “father of liars,” much like Jubal was called “the father of all who play the harp and organ” (Gen 4:21).

According to Jesus, people have only two possible fathers: they can be descendants of Abraham (John 8:33), but only if they do the works of Abraham (v. 39), because mere physical descent isn’t enough; or they can be children of the serpent (vv. 41, 44) if they follow his works that is, lying, deceit, and murder. By seeking to kill the true “seed of Abraham” (v. 40), these Jews were revealing they belonged to the other lineage.

The same applies to us. Simply having the name or outward identity within the Abrahamic covenant is not sufficient. We must live by the works of Abraham to truly be his spiritual descendants, sons of God and heirs of the promise given through Abraham. If we claim to follow Christ but betray or deny Him by our actions, we show that the serpent, the “diabolos”, is our true father, and we will never be truly free.

Now go back and read John 8 with the serpent in mind and see how it comes to life!

"You cannot hear!" - Serpents dont have ears! They can't hear...

John 8:43 "Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say."

The Master is a clever teacher quiet.

 

[quietthinker]

Have you studied John 8?

Who was an actual murderer from the beginning?
In what way did the Serpent speak from his own resources? (clue is "desires")

I'm sure you can piece it together what precisely was in the mind of Christ when speaking to the theme of "whose father"

Jesus uses personification here to describe the spiritual lineage of the "Jews" (v. 22). At the beginning, the serpent spoke the very first lie, "You will not surely die" (Gen 3:4). This lie, accepted and acted upon by Eve, brought sin and death into the world. Thus, the serpent became the “father of liars,” much like Jubal was called “the father of all who play the harp and organ” (Gen 4:21).

According to Jesus, people have only two possible fathers: they can be descendants of Abraham (John 8:33), but only if they do the works of Abraham (v. 39), because mere physical descent isn’t enough; or they can be children of the serpent (vv. 41, 44) if they follow his works that is, lying, deceit, and murder. By seeking to kill the true “seed of Abraham” (v. 40), these Jews were revealing they belonged to the other lineage.

The same applies to us. Simply having the name or outward identity within the Abrahamic covenant is not sufficient. We must live by the works of Abraham to truly be his spiritual descendants, sons of God and heirs of the promise given through Abraham. If we claim to follow Christ but betray or deny Him by our actions, we show that the serpent, the “diabolos”, is our true father, and we will never be truly free.

Now go back and read John 8 with the serpent in mind and see how it comes to life!

"You cannot hear!" - Serpents dont have ears! They can't hear...

John 8:43 "Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say."

The Master is a clever teacher quiet.

I think you are attempting to weave a fabric the which integrity is highly questionable.

 

[Waiting on him]

I don't know. That's a difficult question and I've thought about it a lot. All I can figure is it had to be that way for some reason that hasn't been fully revealed. I'll be curious to see if someone can show if it's been revealed in scripture.

Absolutely revealed in scripture. The veil had to be torn to show the way.

 

[Waiting on him]

Have you studied John 8?

Who was an actual murderer from the beginning?
In what way did the Serpent speak from his own resources? (clue is "desires")

I'm sure you can piece it together what precisely was in the mind of Christ when speaking to the theme of "whose father"

Jesus uses personification here to describe the spiritual lineage of the "Jews" (v. 22). At the beginning, the serpent spoke the very first lie, "You will not surely die" (Gen 3:4). This lie, accepted and acted upon by Eve, brought sin and death into the world. Thus, the serpent became the “father of liars,” much like Jubal was called “the father of all who play the harp and organ” (Gen 4:21).

According to Jesus, people have only two possible fathers: they can be descendants of Abraham (John 8:33), but only if they do the works of Abraham (v. 39), because mere physical descent isn’t enough; or they can be children of the serpent (vv. 41, 44) if they follow his works that is, lying, deceit, and murder. By seeking to kill the true “seed of Abraham” (v. 40), these Jews were revealing they belonged to the other lineage.

The same applies to us. Simply having the name or outward identity within the Abrahamic covenant is not sufficient. We must live by the works of Abraham to truly be his spiritual descendants, sons of God and heirs of the promise given through Abraham. If we claim to follow Christ but betray or deny Him by our actions, we show that the serpent, the “diabolos”, is our true father, and we will never be truly free.

Now go back and read John 8 with the serpent in mind and see how it comes to life!

"You cannot hear!" - Serpents dont have ears! They can't hear...

John 8:43 "Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say."

The Master is a clever teacher quiet.

Don’t forget Moses, and the whole Egyptian thing.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I think you are attempting to weave a fabric the which integrity is highly questionable.

Unlike the ventriloquist story of Genesis 3:1 you mean?

Leave it with you!

 

[Hiddenthings]

@quietthinker

It's a learned skill in being able to not only interpret the Lords words but also understand his exposition and context.

In John 8:38 he is speaking to the them of “Your father”: Symbolically he referred to the serpent (as in verse 44), Cain (verse 49), and Ishmael (verse 35) all representing those who oppose God's purposes through deceit, violence, or rejection of the promised inheritance.

You understand this, right?

Introducing a being with no foundation in the Old Testament is incompatible with Christ’s scriptural understanding, making it impossible to reconcile with the biblical framework he taught from. @Truly

Jesus like Paul understood what the seed of the Serpent truly was!

2 Corinthians 11:3 "But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ."

The wayward followers in John 8 were deceived by their own fleshly nature. In the mind of Christ and the apostles, they were seen as serpents and vipers.

 

[quietthinker]

@quietthinker

It's a learned skill in being able to not only interpret the Lords words but also understand his exposition and context.

In John 8:38 he is speaking to the them of “Your father”: Symbolically he referred to the serpent (as in verse 44), Cain (verse 49), and Ishmael (verse 35) all representing those who oppose God's purposes through deceit, violence, or rejection of the promised inheritance.

You understand this, right?

Introducing a being with no foundation in the Old Testament is incompatible with Christ’s scriptural understanding, making it impossible to reconcile with the biblical framework he taught from. @Truly

Jesus like Paul understood what the seed of the Serpent truly was!

2 Corinthians 11:3 "But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ."

The wayward followers in John 8 were deceived by their own fleshly nature. In the mind of Christ and the apostles, they were seen as serpents and vipers.

It is true that terms like vipers and serpents can be understood as the deceptive nature of men but this does not exclude there being an arch deceiver known as the Devil or Satan. It is this personalised expression that Jesus is referring to in John 8, John 10 and in the visions of John's Revelation.

It is Jesus who dispelled the idea that these expressions (Devil or Satan) were general for wicked men or systems exclusively....and to repeat your words at the outset of your post #48
'It's a learned skill in being able to not only interpret the Lords words but also understand his exposition and context'.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It is true that terms like vipers and serpents can be understood as the deceptive nature of men but this does not exclude there being an arch deceiver known as the Devil or Satan. It is this personalised expression that Jesus is referring to in John 8, John 10 and in the visions of John's Revelation.

It is Jesus who dispelled the idea that these expressions (Devil or Satan) were general for wicked men or systems exclusively....and to repeat your words at the outset of your post #48
'It's a learned skill in being able to not only interpret the Lords words but also understand his exposition and context'.

I understand that you haven’t been part of the in-depth discussions on this topic within the forum these past 2 months, but we certainly have established that there is neither an origin story, nor an identity presented anywhere in the entire Bible for this so-called evil creature.

Try as you might, it is not there.

But what is there...

 

[Waiting on him]

Now go back and read John 8 with the serpent in mind and see how it comes to life!

In John 6 Jesus tells them that the bread Moses gave them didn’t come from God. What was it Moses gave them, a stone, serpent ?

 

[quietthinker]

I understand that you haven’t been part of the in-depth discussions on this topic within the forum these past 2 months, but we certainly have established that there is neither an origin story, nor an identity presented anywhere in the entire Bible for this so-called evil creature.

Try as you might, it is not there.

But what is there...

I don't need to be privy to the collective yada yada of any 'in-depth' discussion in order to arrive at an accurate conclusion as a measure of right or wrong.

 

[Hiddenthings]

In John 6 Jesus tells them that the bread Moses gave them didn’t come from God. What was it Moses gave them, a stone, serpent ?

You speaking of John 6:31-32?

31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven."

 

[Hiddenthings]

I don't need to be privy to the collective yada yada of any 'in-depth' discussion in order to arrive at an accurate conclusion as a measure of right or wrong.

That depends, if the conclusion can't be substantiated with evidence, then the yada yada is yours, not mine.

 

[Waiting on him]

You speaking of John 6:31-32?

31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven."

Correct,

They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
— John 6:30-32

And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
— Mark 1:13

This in Mark isn’t speaking of a mythical creature before Jesus in the dark woods somewhere being all creepy. It’s infact an allegorical reference to what he experienced with the religious dictators during his ministry.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Correct,

They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
— John 6:30-32

And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
— Mark 1:13

This in Mark isn’t speaking of a mythical creature before Jesus in the dark woods somewhere being all creepy. It’s infact an allegorical reference to what he experienced with the religious dictators during his ministry.

Mark notes “with the wild beasts" pointing to the true enemy.

To be carnally mind is death...those who are Christ have crucified the flesh and so on...

 

[Hiddenthings]

A belief in an evil fallen angel stems from a lack of disciplined study and thoughtful reflection on Scripture.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Admittedly and not proudly I find myself not getting emotional when others/pastors talk about how Jesus had to die on the cross for us and the suffering He felr...yes it is absolutely terrible, devastating, and I can't imagine...but in my mind I just keep thinking about why did it have to be "set up like that" meaning why out of all the possible ways for us to be saved did it have to be that way? I realize like Paul says who are we mere humans to ask questions.

Like Abraham and Isaac, it's a partnership grounded in love and sacrifice. We can’t truly appreciate the beauty and hope of the cross without first coming to terms with the reality of sin and the nature we all share.

Christ understood and those in him do also.

"Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." Galatians 5:24

 

[quietthinker]

A belief in an evil fallen angel stems from a lack of disciplined study and thoughtful reflection on Scripture.

I don't think so but your comment does point to a condescending attitude and an inflated ego

 

[Hiddenthings]

I don't think so but your comment does point to a condescending attitude and an inflated ego

I'm simply someone who is well-informed and aware that you don't have the evidence. If you focus on the subject rather than attempting to discredit the person, you preserve your integrity and create a better opportunity for the truth to be revealed. Have you read @WaitingOnHim's posts? They seem to get it, maybe their perspective resonates more with you?