David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I agree, except Saul didn't become Paul. Saul was his Hebrew name, and Paul his Roman name (he had dual nationality). He didn't have a name change like Abram/Abraham, Simon/Peter, etc.
DID THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS SPEAK OF THE MYSTERY?
- Thread starter Doug
- Start date
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Here was this found in the law and prophets..................[Hab 2:4 KJV] 4 Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
[Act 7:38 KJV] 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Israel is a nation. The Bible says the people of Israel made up the church
[Exo 12:3 KJV] 3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house:
A church is a congregation/assembly
The church in this dispensation is the body of Christ. The body of Christ was not formed until Paul was converted in Acts 9.
The church Paul persecuted were in Christ by believing the preaching of Peter and the disciples. They only believed on the name of Jesus (John 20:31)
A church is a congregation/assembly
[Exo 12:6 KJV] 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
As seen above the people of Israel formed the church
[Lev 23:15-16 KJV] 15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
Here in the passage above is where Pentecost was commanded to Israel
Pentecost was a feast commanded the congregation of Israel to keep, so how could it be the start of the church when the church formed back when Israel came out of Egypt
[Act 2:15-17 KJV] 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Peter didnt say the church was formed here, he said it was a fulfillment of the prophet Joel given to Israel.
The church today in this dispensation didnt start here either. The body of Christ was formed after Paul's conversion in Acts 9 as revealed by Jesus.
They only preached the name of Christ, that he was Christ the Son of God
[Act 4:12 KJV] 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
[Jhn 20:31 KJV] 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
[Jhn 11:27 KJV] 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
[Act 8:37-38 KJV] 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Israel is the Land of the Bible where Jesus will return.
Not the Christian Church!
Israel is Home to stay! Jesus said so.
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See Matthew 16.18 where Jesus says:
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Note that Jesus said that he WILL (Future Tense) build his church. The church is said to be a future event from Jesus' ministry on earth.
Be careful not to equivocate on the words Church/Assembly/Gathering/Congregation. The word Church is a technical term for the Bride of Christ in the NT. The word does not appear in the OT. The word "Church" in the context of the nation of Israel of the OT, is the word for Gathering. Israel is not the Church in the NT. That is Replacement Theology, which is non dispensational theology, can not explain Roman 9-11 where Israel is removed from the tree and the Church is grafted in.
Here is the word used for congregation (Church is a bad translation in Ex 12.3), It is not the Greek word for Church. It is a different word altogether. The Ex 12.3 word is SUNAGWGHN, which refers to a 'gathering.' There
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We need to look at the surrounding verses
[Mat 16:15-16 KJV] 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
The acknowledgement that Jesus was Christ the Son of God was necessary to have eternal life (John 20:31). They were to believe on his name, This was the formation of the church of the believing remnant of Israel. This church did begin with the appearance of Christ to Israel.
This is the foundation to build the church which would continue to grow past his resurrection..............................[Act 2:47 KJV] 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
This does not negate that the congregation wasnt the first church, The church formed as stated in Matthew 16:18 was a new church. The body of Christ is another new church.
The bride of Christ is the new Jerusalem composed of believing Israel..........................[Rev 21:9-10 KJV] 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Is this the same place being spoken of here? Since they are come to a mount that is not one that is actually touched, as it speaks
Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched...
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
'And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost,
and prophesied, saying,
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel;
for He hath visited and redeemed His people,
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us
in the house of His servant David;
As He spake by the mouth of His holy prophets,
which have been since the world began:'
(Luk 1:67-70)
Hello @Doug,
* There are two mysteries spoken of in Ephesians 3, 'The Mystery' revealed to Paul alone, and which He was making known while in prison at Rome, and 'The Mystery of Christ' which He refers to, to substantiate his introduction of this further mystery.
'If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery;
(as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read,
ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;'
(Eph 3:2-5)
* 'The Mystery of Christ' was the subject of the Old Testament Prophets, yet a mystery to them, for it required the revelation of God to reveal it.
'And He said unto them,
These are the words which I spake unto you,
while I was yet with you,
.. that all things must be fulfilled,
.... which were written in the law of Moses,
...... and in the prophets,
........ and in the psalms,
......... concerning me.
Then opened He their understanding,
that they might understand the scriptures,
And said unto them, Thus it is written,
and thus it behoved Christ to suffer,
and to rise from the dead the third day:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name
among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things.
And, behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you:
but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem,
until ye be endued with power from on high.'
(Luk 24:44-49)
* Paul also received this revelation concerning 'The Mystery of Christ'. This is what was preached by Himself, and the Twelve throughout the Acts period. It is witnessed by the Old Testament Prophets, and revealed unto the Apostles and Prophets of the New Testament, for them to make known. This is the mystery referred to by Paul in Romans 16:25-26, an echo of Rom. 1:1-4.
Praise God!
* 'The Mystery' made known to Paul concerned The Church which is the Body of Christ, which is the subject of the prison epistles, written by Paul from his confinement at Rome, and ministered by him to those who came to visit him during that period. The epistles of Eph. Phil. Col, 2Tim, Titus and Phile. are those written during that time. This mystery is not to be found anywhere else in Scripture, having been hid in God. The unsearchable riches of Christ (Eph. 3:8-9).
Praise His Holy Name!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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This is speaking of this........................[Exo 19:12 KJV] 12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, [that ye] go [not] up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:........................the people could not come too close to mount Sinai
Hello @Doug
'The Mystery' made known to Paul only, still requires a revelation of God to reveal it, as the prayer of Ephesians 17 shows:-
'Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened;
that ye may know
.. what is the hope of His calling,
.... and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
...... And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe,
........ according to the working of His mighty power,
.......... Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead,
............ and set him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
.............. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion,
................ and every name that is named,
.................. not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'
(Eph 1:15-23)
Praise His Holy Name!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
'The Mystery' made known to Paul only, still requires a revelation of God to reveal it, as the prayer of Ephesians 17 shows:-
'Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened;
that ye may know
.. what is the hope of His calling,
.... and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
...... And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe,
........ according to the working of His mighty power,
.......... Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead,
............ and set him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
.............. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion,
................ and every name that is named,
.................. not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'
(Eph 1:15-23)
Praise His Holy Name!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Can you name two scholars who agree with this? A new church and ANOTHER new church of the body of Christ?
This is the belief of the Jehovah Witnesses or the Mormons, can't remember which one came my house and presented this teaching that I consider bizarre.
Hello @Doug,
With respect, the church which is The Body of Christ did not come into being until Paul made known the revelation of God concerning it, which was following the departure of Israel into unbelief after their final rejection, in the diaspora, of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King. The quotation from Isaiah 6 in Acts 28, by Paul and the sending of salvation to the Gentiles in Acts 28:28, all mark the crises point that took place just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in AD 70, when Israel as a nation ceased to be, and it's people were scattered among the nations.
The establishing of the church which is the Body of Christ was to mend what was broken. To say that it began earlier in the Acts is to deny the truth of Ephesians 3:8-9: That knowledge of the church which is the Body of Christ was hid in God, until it's revelation to Paul, which he subsequently made known in the prison epistles , while the Lord's Prisoner. (see Eph. Phil. Col. 2 Tim. Titus & Philemon).
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Christ did not reveal a mystery
All scripture he opened to them only spoke of his death and resurrection
Only Paul received the mystery that the cross obtained salvation freely to all
It matters only what the scripture says.
There was the church of God that Paul persecuted..................[1Co 15:9 KJV] 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God................this is the church formed during Christ's earthly ministry...................the church in this dispensation is the body of Christ...........the body of Christ was not yet formed when Paul persecuted it
