Elijah shall come before Christ?

[Muna]

Yes, because they're leaders, teachers and lawyers of Israel who know the Old Testament scripture.

Scripturally, 'these' are the prophesied 'individuals' the leaders and Israel are waiting for.

Scripturally, the 'Messiah' is to come, and before the Messiah, Elijah is to come, and that Prophet mentioned by Moses is to come.

Therefore with knowledge the leaders or through their servants, they've approached John and Jesus.

I do know this, that is obvious, but what I mean by all three, is that Jesus is BOTH "the Christ and THAT prophet" (Moses said that would come). Elijah (or Elias) is also being asked about (concerning John the baptist). What I was wondering, is if they were looking at this as three individuals rather than just the two (Christ, who is THAT Prophet) and John (the Elias/Elijah, for to come)

 

[ScottA]

Don't be naive. The above is God offering Israel a CHOICE. It does not mean both are applied together.



Now that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the previous Deuteronomy verse.

In Deuteronomy 28, God warned Israel what He would do to them IF... they fell into idol worship against Him. God gave a list of curses if they made that false worship CHOICE to not obey Him. But IF they instead obeyed Him, God then gave a list of Blessings they would receive for staying in Him.

So it is Israel's CHOICE that decided what they would received, God's Blessings, or God's curses, not both.

"Naive" is forgetting that all since Adam were first cursed.

 

[Zao is life]

You are a universalist....something much much worse.

And as far as having an eschatology view....
I do not and have never given ANY viewpoint, never promoted one, or really discussed much about future prophesies whatsoever.

I have very valid reasons....ones you will never understand.

Christian universalism refers to the idea that every human will eventually receive salvation in a religious or spiritual sense. I don't know what your own personal understanding is of Christian universalism, but everyone who knows me in these forums (and in real life) knows that I'm not a universalist.

What you say about John the Baptist is promoting your own eschatological views because the prophecy the apostles referred to when they asked Jesus why the prophets say John the Baptist should come first - which Jesus answered - is Malachi 4 - an eschatological prophecy about the Day of the LORD.

You're once again grasping at straws. Maybe it would be better for you not to keep telling others they need to do more Bible reading etc and trying to slur them with false accusations in desperate attempts to disqualify them when they disagree with you (as you once again did in your post quoted above) because aside from showing yourself up for your own lack of knowledge and understanding, you won't instigate back-and-forth unnecessary slurs and insults by dishing them out in order to make yourself look good either. Dishing it out doesn't make you look good. It makes you look desperate.​

 

[Zao is life]

I do know this, that is obvious, but what I mean by all three, is that Jesus is BOTH "the Christ and THAT prophet" (Moses said that would come). Elijah (or Elias) is also being asked about (concerning John the baptist). What I was wondering, is if they were looking at this as three individuals rather than just the two (Christ, who is THAT Prophet) and John (the Elias/Elijah, for to come)

They probably were looking at it as three individuals in my opinion. Their question implied that they understood Elijah and "that prophet" to be referring to two different men, and that "that prophet" and the Messiah to be referring to two different men.

 

[Muna]

They probably were looking at it as three individuals in my opinion. Their question implied that they understood Elijah and "that prophet" to be referring to two different men, and that "that prophet" and the Messiah to be referring to two different men.

It says here this

Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. (See also John 12:19)

John had already denied that he was the Christ (In John 1:20)

So then they ask,

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then?

Art thou Elias?

And he saith, I am not.

And then they ask,

Art thou that prophet?

And he answered, No.

John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then,

if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

See the three?

These reccognized Christ as "that prophet"

John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

A specific prophet in Deut 18:18 which is confirmed in Acts 3:22-23 is "that prophet"

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

 

[Zao is life]

It says here this

Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. (See also John 12:19)

John had already denied that he was the Christ (In John 1:20)

So then they ask,

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then?

Art thou Elias?

And he saith, I am not.

And then they ask,

Art thou that prophet?

And he answered, No.

John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then,

if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

See the three?

These reccognized Christ as "that prophet"

John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

A specific prophet in Deut 18:18 which is confirmed in Acts 3:22-23 is "that prophet"

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yes. I agree. If you are aware of the importance of Moses' prophecy and Acts 3:22, then automatically you will understand that the people in John 6:14 ("those men" - not the apostles) were acknowledging Jesus as "that prophet", but not necessarily as the Messiah.

I don't know since what point in time in my Christian faith I have understood the messengers of the Pharisees to have Moses' prophet (Deut 18:18), Elijah and the Messiah as three separate men in their understanding. The people in John 6:14 obviously did not have Moses' prophet and the Messiah linked either, otherwise they would not have said "This is that prophet" but instead they would have said, "This is the Messiah".

IMO you are 100% correct, and it's well spotted

- and it shows that you pay attention to detail when you read scripture, and you understand that every word is vital to read carefully and correctly - and it also shows that you actually do read your Bible enough for it to be in your memory
- and it also shows that you are always comparing scripture with scripture as you read (probably without even realizing it)
- and it also shows that the Holy Spirit is helping you by bringing other scriptures to your mind that are pertinent to verses like John 1:21, 25; John 6:14; Acts 3:22 and Deut 18:18.

The Holy Spirit would not be helping you if you were not interested enough to be making the effort yourself. So well spotted!​

 

[Muna]

They did the same thing with Jesus too

Matt 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Matt 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: (as Herod thought Matt 14:1-2) some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Matt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

There sure was alot of confusion without the Father revealing His Son to them

I wonder why some thought Jeremiah now, like what were they reading that led them to name him?

 

[Muna]

Yes. I agree. If you are aware of the importance of Moses' prophecy and Acts 3:22, then automatically you will understand that the people in John 6:14 ("those men" - not the apostles) were acknowledging Jesus as "that prophet", but not necessarily as the Messiah.

I don't know since what point in time in my Christian faith I have understood the messengers of the Pharisees to have Moses' prophet (Deut 18:18), Elijah and the Messiah as three separate men in their understanding. The people in John 6:14 obviously did not have Moses' prophet and the Messiah linked either, otherwise they would not have said "This is that prophet" but instead they would have said, "This is the Messiah".

IMO you are 100% correct, and it's well spotted

- and it shows that you pay attention to detail when you read scripture, and you understand that every word is vital to read carefully and correctly - and it also shows that you actually do read your Bible enough for it to be in your memory
- and it also shows that you are always comparing scripture with scripture as you read (probably without even realizing it)
- and it also shows that the Holy Spirit is helping you by bringing other scriptures to your mind that are pertinent to verses like John 1:21, 25; John 6:14; Acts 3:22 and Deut 18:18.

The Holy Spirit would not be helping you if you were not interested enough to be making the effort yourself. So well spotted!​

I had overposted you, thank you for the kind words Zao is life our God richly bless you, it is so fun to dig through these and see what we can spot in there, after so many years and I still amazed at what I have overlooked and its always brand new once again (or at least thats how it feels).

 

[Zao is life]

They did the same thing with Jesus too

Matt 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Matt 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: (as Herod thought Matt 14:1-2) some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Matt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

There sure was alot of confusion without the Father revealing His Son to them

I wonder why some thought Jeremiah now, like what were they reading that led them to name him?

[Strongs Hebrew 3414] Yirmyah yir-meh-yaw' or Yirmyahuw {yir-meh-yaw'-hoo};

from 7311 and 3050; Jah will rise; Jirmejah, the name of eight or nine Israelites:--Jeremiah. see HEBREW for 07311 see HEBREW for 03050

"YHVH will rise"

Christians today do not understand the Hebrew mindset. So (possibly, and only IMO) they would have meant "Jeremiah" in the same way as "in the zeal and anointing of Jeremiah" - just like the zeal and anointing of Elijah.

- but the Jews of Jesus's day were just as confused in their understanding as the Christians of today are, so why some thought that Jesus was another Jeremiah is anyone's guess.​

 

[Muna]

[Strongs Hebrew 3414] Yirmyah yir-meh-yaw' or Yirmyahuw {yir-meh-yaw'-hoo};

from 7311 and 3050; Jah will rise; Jirmejah, the name of eight or nine Israelites:--Jeremiah. see HEBREW for 07311 see HEBREW for 03050

"YHVH will rise"

Christians today do not understand the Hebrew mindset. So (possibly, and only IMO) they would have meant "Jeremiah" in the same way as "in the zeal and anointing of Jeremiah" - just like the zeal and anointing of Elijah.

- but the Jews of Jesus's day were just as confused in their understanding as the Christians of today are, so why some thought that Jesus was another Jeremiah is anyone's guess.​

You know, I forgot to check in Luke, and this might help answer it maybe

Luke 9:19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again

They seem to believe in the resurrection of the dead in both John and the older prophets because, speaking of Jesus here it says of him

Mark 6:16 But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.

So it appears when they believed Jesus could be John the baptist Herod was attaching the resurrection of John in Jesus Christ. As being one and the same. But then others were saying some of the old prophets have risen again. Kind of weird I guess.

 

[Zao is life]

I had overposted you, thank you for the kind words Zao is life our God richly bless you, it is so fun to dig through these and see what we can spot in there, after so many years and I still amazed at what I have overlooked and its always brand new once again (or at least thats how it feels).

It's good when people don't accuse one another of something that would apparently disqualify them from knowing what they're talking about.

I learned something from you in the process because you made me realize something to a deeper extent now than I realized it before: Just how veiled Jesus's true identity was to everyone who met Him:

There sure was a lot of confusion without the Father revealing His Son to them

Peter knew by the witness he received from God directly.

The masses were "told" indirectly by the miracles He did. But Jesus's true identity was completely veiled in a human body.

 

[Zao is life]

You know, I forgot to check in Luke, and this might help answer it maybe

Luke 9:19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again

They seem to believe in the resurrection of the dead in both John and the older prophets because, speaking of Jesus here it says of him

Mark 6:16 But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.

So it appears when they believed Jesus could be John the baptist Herod was attaching the resurrection of John in Jesus Christ. As being one and the same. But then others were saying some of the old prophets have risen again. Kind of weird I guess.

Not really weird, considering that they did not have the hindsight of the death and resurrection of Jesus that we have, and the knowledge we have been given about how the resurrection of the dead works - Jesus the firstfruits and then when He comes, those who belong to Him etc. Each in his own order.

They had none of that knowledge. They only knew there was such a thing as a resurrection from the dead promised in scripture.

 

[Muna]

It's good when people don't accuse one another of something that would apparently disqualify them from knowing what they're talking about.

I learned something from you in the process because you made me realize something to a deeper extent now than I realized it before: Just how veiled Jesus's true identity was to everyone who met Him:

We are both being taught then because I am sitting and learning right beside you as I am digging through these pictures, its like 3 AM and I dont want to go to bed I want to dig through some more lol

Peter knew by the witness he received from God directly.

The masses were "told" indirectly by the miracles He did. But Jesus's true identity was completely veiled in a human body.

Yeah, he walked in the flesh and he also say, If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (John 10:37-38)

There would no veiling the works that he did in their midst

I think I am going to call it a night (or a morning) try to get in bed before my husband gets up for work lol

Good night Zao is life

 

[David Lamb]

Quit being and reacting like a 'kid'.

Mark 12:
35. And Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the Temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36. For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I makethine enemies thy footstool.
37. David therefore himself calleth Him Lord, and whence is He then his son? And the common people heard Him galdly.
38. And He said unto them in His doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces.

Looks like i have to beware of you, no thank you.

Will David meet Jesus and say, 'You are my son and I am your father'?

But Jesus was not denying that He was the son of David. He was saying rather that He was not merely one of David's physical descendants. He is also Son of God, which explains why David called Him Lord. But He was by natural descent Son of David. The New Testament opens with these words:

“The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:” (Mt 1:1 NKJV)

 

[JohnDB]

Christian universalism refers to the idea that every human will eventually receive salvation in a religious or spiritual sense. I don't know what your own personal understanding is of Christian universalism, but everyone who knows me in these forums (and in real life) knows that I'm not a universalist.

What you say about John the Baptist is promoting your own eschatological views because the prophecy the apostles referred to when they asked Jesus why the prophets say John the Baptist should come first - which Jesus answered - is Malachi 4 - an eschatological prophecy about the Day of the LORD.

You're once again grasping at straws. Maybe it would be better for you not to keep telling others they need to do more Bible reading etc and trying to slur them with false accusations in desperate attempts to disqualify them when they disagree with you (as you once again did in your post quoted above) because aside from showing yourself up for your own lack of knowledge and understanding, you won't instigate back-and-forth unnecessary slurs and insults by dishing them out in order to make yourself look good either. Dishing it out doesn't make you look good. It makes you look desperate.​

You have three times ignored what I've said and falsely accused me of crap I specifically have not done.

I did not seek engagement with you and now you are going on ignore.

 

[rwb]

Friends as David Lamb quoted, Jesus himself said John the Baptist is Elijah, and the prophecy is 'fulfilled'.

But why John the Baptist himself said he's not Elijah?

The answer is found when we understand that John the Baptist was not Elijah who was to physically come again, but was the SPIRIT of Elijah (Elias).

Luke 1:13-17 (KJV) But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

 

[Zao is life]

You have three times ignored what I've said and falsely accused me of crap I specifically have not done.

I did not seek engagement with you and now you are going on ignore.

 

[Muna]

Matt 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Matt 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: (as Herod thought Matt 14:1-2) some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Okay, I was looking at this this morning, and I think I might have found the reason why some might have thought Jesus could have been Jeremiah (As supposed in Matt 16:14). I am guessing some thought that in some sort of prophetic sense of things since it is written here (in Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Jeremiah 1:4-5 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Looking for other proofs of this particular understanding, I thought maybe (although not sure) that this might be the reason they also said this?

John 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

Since there was a belief that Jesus could have been Jeremiah as expressed by the disciples in Matt 16:14 ( according to what understanding men had of him). So I am curious if it was because of what was written in Jeremiah 1:4-5 (and how some at the time understood it) which is where we also see the mention of the same being ordained as a prophet unto the nations (or the Gentiles). Because we also have some of the Jews in John 7:35 misunderstanding where Jesus was going and fell back on supposing he would be going among the Gentiles (or the nations) as it speaks in Jeremiah 1:5 there.

 

[Davy]

"Naive" is forgetting that all since Adam were first cursed.

You trying to change the subject does not make your previous statements correct.

 

[ScottA]

You trying to change the subject does not make your previous statements correct.

Nice try.

I was not changing the subject, but explaining it according to the greater truth from God in its continuity--as He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That is called confirmation (from God).