24 elders in Heaven

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Hiddenthings

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You are trying to be SLY!

You intentionally disregard that above phrase, "if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved...".
Correct, meaning is you perished, and your hope remains with God in Heaven
That phrase sets the CONDITION of that "building of God" being manifest in the heavenly.

That building of course is the "spiritual body" which Paul covered back in the 1 Corinthians 15 Chapter.
The building is Christ - "an house not made with hands"...it's not you Davy!

Look up Mark 14:58 & Hebrews 9:11 - I'm certain you will agree.
 
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Davy

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This belief is false - agree

After the sealing is completed, and at the return of Christ!

Pre-tribbers wrongly interpret the Rev.7 passage about the "great multitude" having come out of great tribulation to mean their false pre-trib rapture. It is not about that, as future forward timeline events for after Christ's return are given within those Scriptures.
 

Hiddenthings

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Pre-tribbers wrongly interpret the Rev.7 passage about the "great multitude" having come out of great tribulation to mean their false pre-trib rapture. It is not about that, as future forward timeline events for after Christ's return are given within those Scriptures.
John's attention is directed to a vast, uncountable multitude of the redeemed. They are seen honoring the Lamb in gratitude for the victory they have gained. This group is portrayed as joyfully celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles, offering praise to the Lamb for the salvation they have received. These intermittent visions are given for the Saints throughout the ages to gain strength and confidence during their sufferings for Christ. All Visions concern those events post Christ's return.
 

Davy

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Correct, meaning is you perished you hope remains with God in Heaven

Nope! It means if your flesh is suddenly dissolved, LITERALLY gone, like in a war, you STILL have ANOTHER BODY, the "image of the heavenly", the "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15. Just saying all that remains is a 'hope' to God in heaven is a SPIRITUALIZATION of a literal heavenly body that Paul clearly revealed.

The building is Christ - "an house not made with hands"...it's not you Davy!

That above is just ANOTHER... SPIRITUALIZATION!

No, the other body Paul revealed in 2 Cor.5 is about a HEAVENLY IMAGE BODY, one not made with hands (non-material). Paul was NOT talking about the idea of the Temple of The SPIRIT. He was talking LITERALLY about the spirit body that God also created us with! Per Hebrews 4:12 God made us with a soul, a spirit, and a flesh body of joints and marrow. Our spirit part is about the "spiritual body" Paul taught there in 2 Cor.5. That is why Paul spoke of whether here (on earth) or in the heavenly, to be absent from the body (flesh) is to be with Christ.

Look up Mark 14:58 & Hebrews 9:11 - I'm certain you will agree.

Jesus was only giving a metaphor about His dead body being in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights. He was not talking about His flesh body being 'dissolved' like Paul was speaking in 2 Cor.5.

Did you not know that Lord Jesus' flesh body was QUICKENED by The Spirit to a Spirit body?? (1 Peter 3:18; 1 Cor.15:45)

Lord Jesus' flesh body was transfigured, or quickened, to a Spirit body, and kept the marks of His crucifixion. THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENS TO THE REST OF US.

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV


So either you believe what Paul taught, or you default to men's doctrines.
 

Davy

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John's attention is directed to a vast, uncountable multitude of the redeemed. They are seen honoring the Lamb in gratitude for the victory they have gained. This group is portrayed as joyfully celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles, offering praise to the Lamb for the salvation they have received. These intermittent visions are given for the Saints throughout the ages to gain strength and confidence during their sufferings for Christ. All Visions concern those events post Christ's return.

Right, that is a future-foward timeline view about that "great multitude" of Rev.7. They represent the sealed Gentiles in Christ.
 
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keithr

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Due to a babe's inability to understand the spiritual teachings of the New Covenant, they will fall prey to Satan and will become apostate.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

Falling away has happened to all the babes who have entered the church since Paul's departing. (Acts 20:29-31).
So all Christians have become apostate and no Christians will be saved - we're all doomed! Wrong! Paul warned, verse 30, "Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them". That doesn't mean that everybody will be deceived. You're "speaking perverse things", but you're not deceiving me! You have misunderstood Isaiah 28. The "another language" is simply the language of another nation. God was alluding to how he would cause the Israelites to be taken into captivity into Babylon. Albert Barnes' Notes for verse 11 says:

For - This verse is to be understood as a response to what the complaining and dissatisfied people had said, as expressed in the previous verse. God says that he will teach them, but it should be by another tongue - a foreign language in a distant land. Since they refused to hearken to the messages which he sent to them, and which they regarded as adapted only to children, he would teach them in a manner that should be “much more” humiliating; he would make use of the barbarous language of foreigners to bring them to the true knowledge of God.​
With stammering lips - The word which is used here is derived from a verb (לעג lâ‛âg), which means to speak unintelligibly: especially to speak in a foreign language, or to stammer; and then to mock, deride, laugh at, scorn (compare Isa_33:19; Pro_1:26; Pro_17:5; Psa_2:4; Psa_59:9; Job_22:19). Here it means in a foreign or barbarous tongue; and the sense is, that the lessons which God wished to teach would be conveyed to them through the language of foreigners - the Chaldeans. They should be removed to a distant land, and there, in hearing a strange speech, in living long among foreigners, they should learn the lesson which they refused to do when addressed by the prophets in their own land.​

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In Christ's conversation with Martha, Martha is speaking of the bodily resurrection from the grave. However, when Christ responds to her, He is speaking about the spiritual resurrection (the First Resurrection).

Here is how I know this:

<snipped>

In verse 26, Christ says to Martha that after a person has been made spiritually alive and believes, the person will never die. That is true because a converted person can never spiritually die again after having been converted due to Christ's sacrifice on the cross. If Christ was speaking of being "physically" alive and believing, His statement about the person never dying would be false. Why? Because all believers who make a confession of faith are going to still physically die someday.
You have misunderstood what Jesus was saying, and it seems that you have invented your so called "spiritual resurrection" as a way of understanding what he said. What Jesus meant by "Whoever believes in Me, even if he dies, shall live" (TLV), is that even though faith doesn't save us from dying, even if we do die (and all will die except those that are raptured - 1 Thessalonians 4:17) then we will still have eternal life after we are restored to life in the resurrection, when Jesus returns. By "Whoever lives and believes in me will never die" he meant that just like those that believed in him and are now dead, yet they shall live after their resurrection, likewise those that are alive and believe in him will also be resurrected to eternal life ("will never die"). Those that believe in Jesus shall not come into eternal death. The Greek that is translated as "shall never die" is more literally translated as "Shall by no means die forever".

Jesus said "Whoever believes in Me", not "whoever has been made spiritually alive and believes in me" - you're once again adding to and corrupting Scripture.

Since you no longer want to continue our discussion, there is no need for you to respond.
I'm trying to resist the temptation, because this is not part of the "24 elders" topic of this thread!
 

Hiddenthings

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Nope! It means if your flesh is suddenly dissolved, LITERALLY gone, like in a war, you STILL have ANOTHER BODY, the "image of the heavenly", the "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15. Just saying all that remains is a 'hope' to God in heaven is a SPIRITUALIZATION of a literal heavenly body that Paul clearly revealed.
I like to very much see your Scripture to prove this Davy!
No, the other body Paul revealed in 2 Cor.5 is about a HEAVENLY IMAGE BODY, one not made with hands (non-material). Paul was NOT talking about the idea of the Temple of The SPIRIT. He was talking LITERALLY about the spirit body that God also created us with! Per Hebrews 4:12 God made us with a soul, a spirit, and a flesh body of joints and marrow. Our spirit part is about the "spiritual body" Paul taught there in 2 Cor.5. That is why Paul spoke of whether here (on earth) or in the heavenly, to be absent from the body (flesh) is to be with Christ.
The body as you refer to it is being kept until the appearing of Christ.

1 Peter 1:4: “To an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.”

2 Timothy 4:8 “Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day...”


Jesus was only giving a metaphor about His dead body being in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights. He was not talking about His flesh body being 'dissolved' like Paul was speaking in 2 Cor.5.

His literal body was destroyed - completely dead! No different to the Literal Temple in AD70!

Did you not know that Lord Jesus' flesh body was QUICKENED by The Spirit to a Spirit body?? (1 Peter 3:18; 1 Cor.15:45)
Made immortal - correct! Jesus became Immortal dangerous topic Davy - still no one in this forum could answer the questions!
Lord Jesus' flesh body was transfigured, or quickened, to a Spirit body, and kept the marks of His crucifixion. THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENS TO THE REST OF US.

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV


So either you believe what Paul taught, or you default to men's doctrines.
Yes, the raised body must be clothed with immortality!

This is the Gospel Davy!

Romans 1:1-4 1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,

What is the difference between the Son of Man and the Son of God with power?

I'm sure you will work it out!
 

keithr

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If the First Resurrection which is being taught in Rev 20:5-6 is the bodily resurrection from the grave, then what do you believe is the resurrection that is shown in verses 11-15 of that same chapter?
Verses 5-6, the first resurrection, is the referring to the resurrection of the Christian Church. They (we) are all changed to be part of a new creation and are resurrected as immortal spirit beings, like Jesus:

2 Corinthians 5:17 WEB
(17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.​

1 John 3:2 WEB
(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​

Verse 11-15 is referring to the second resurrection of the rest of mankind, who are restored to human life and are reigned over by Jesus and the resurrected Christians for a 1,000 year period. They will be taught righteousness during this ample time, and at he end of the 1,000 years they will be judged according to how they live during their trial period. Christians have their trial period during our current lives - the narrow, or more difficult, way - whereas the rest of mankind have their trial during the 1,000 years when Satan is bound up and cannot deceive anyone - the broad, or easier, way. Those that fail the final test will be judged unworthy of eternal life and they will perish - the second, and permanent, death.
 

keithr

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There's no scripture to support such 'twisted version' claim that those like Enoch and Elijah taken up to Heaven, will have a change of body nor had, like Jesus.
Hebrews 11:5 WEB
(5) By faith, Enoch was taken away, so that he wouldn’t see death, and he was not found, because God translated him. For he has had testimony given to him that before his translation he had been well pleasing to God.​

Albert Barnes Notes on this verse says:

By faith Enoch was translated - The account of Enoch is found in Gen_5:21-24. It is very brief, and is this, that “Enoch walked with God, and was not, for God took him.” There is no particular mention of his “faith,” and the apostle attributes this to him, as in the case of Abel, either because it was involved in the very nature of piety, or because the fact was communicated to him by direct revelation. In the account in Genesis, there is nothing inconsistent with the belief that Enoch was characterized by eminent faith, but it is rather implied in the expression, “he walked with God.” Compare 2Co_5:7. It may also be implied in what is said by the apostle Jude Jud_1:14-15, that “he prophesied, saying, Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousand of his saints,” etc. From this it would appear that he was a preacher: that he predicted the coming of the Lord to judgment, and that he lived in the firm belief of what was to occur in future times. Moses does not say expressly that Enoch was translated. He says “he was not, for God took him.” The expression “he was not,” means he was no more among people; or he was removed from the earth. “This” language would be applicable to any method by which he was removed, whether by dying, or by being translated. A similar expression respecting Romulus occurs in Livy (i. 16), Nec deinde in terris Romulus fuit. The translation of the Septuagint on this part of the verse in Genesis is, οὐχ εὑρίσκετο ouch heurisketo - “was not found;” that is, he disappeared. The authority for what the apostle says here, that he “was translated,” is found in the other phrase in Genesis, “God took him.” The reasons which led to the statement that he was transported without seeing death, or that show that this is a fair conclusion from the words in Genesis, are such, as these:

(1) There is no mention made of his death, and in this respect the account of Enoch stands by itself. It is, except in this case, the uniform custom of Moses to mention the age and the death of the individuals whose biography he records, and in many cases this is about all that is said of them. But in regard to Enoch there is this remarkable exception that no record is made of his death - showing that there was something unusual in the manner of his removal from the world.

(2) The Hebrew word used by Moses, found in such a connection, is one which would rather suggest the idea that he had been taken in some extraordinary manner from the world. That word - לקח laaqach - means “to take” - with the idea of taking “to oneself.” Thus, Gen_8:20, “Noah took of all beasts and offered a burnt-offering.” Thus, it is often used in the sense of “taking a wife” - that is, to oneself Gen_4:19; Gen_6:2; Gen_12:19; Gen_19:14; and then it is used in the sense of “taking away;” Gen_14:12; Gen_27:35; Job_1:21; Job_12:20; Psa_31:13; Jer_15:15. The word, therefore, would naturally suggest the idea that he had been taken by God to himself, or had been removed in an extraordinary manner from the earth. This is confirmed by the fact that the word is not used anywhere in the Scriptures to denote a “removal by death,” and that in the only other instance in which it (לקח laaqach) is used in relation to a removal from this world, it occurs in the statement respecting the translation of Elijah. “And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel, came forth to Elisha, and said to him, Knowest thou that the Lord “will take away” (לקח laaqach) thy master from thy head today?” 2Ki_2:3, 2Ki_2:5; compare Heb_11:11. This transaction, where there could be no doubt about the “manner” of the removal, shows in what sense the word is used in Genesis.

(3) It was so understood by the translators of the Septuagint. The apostle has used the same word in this place which is employed by the Seventy in Gen_5:24 - μετατίθημι metatithēmi. This word means to transpose, to put in another place; and then to transport, transfer, translate; Act_7:16; Heb_7:12. It properly expresses the removal to another place, and is the very word which would he used on the supposition that one was taken to heaven without dying.

(4) This interpretation of the passage in Genesis by Paul is in accordance with the uniform interpretation of the Jews. In the Targum of Onkelos it is evidently supposed that Enoch was transported without dying. In that Targum the passage in Gen_5:24 is rendered, “And Enoch walked in the fear of the Lord, and was not, for the Lord did not put him to death” - לּה lo’ - ‘amiyt yityeh Yahweh. So also in Ecclesiasticus or the Son of Sirach (49:14), “But upon the earth was no man created like Enoch; for he was taken from the earth.” These opinions of the Jews and of the early translators, are of value only as showing that the interpretation which Paul has put upon Gen_5:2 is the natural interpretation. It is such as occurs to separate writers, without collusion, and thus shows that this is the meaning most naturally suggested by the passage.

That he should not see death - That is, that he should not experience death, or be made personally acquainted with it. The word “taste” often occurs in the same sense. Heb_2:9, “that he should taste death for every man;” compare Mat_16:28; Mrk_9:1; Luk_9:27.

And was not found - Gen_5:24, “And he was not.” That is, he was not in the land of the living. Paul retains the word used in the Septuagint.

He had this testimony, that he pleased God - Implied in the declaration in Gen_5:22, that he “walked with God.” This denotes a state of friendship between God and him, and of course implies that his conduct was pleasing to God. The apostle appeals here to the sense of the account in Genesis, but does not retain the very “words.” The meaning here is not that the testimony respecting Enoch was actually “given” before his translation, but that the testimony relates to his having “pleased God” before he was removed. “Stuart.” In regard to this instructive fragment of history, and to the reasons why Enoch was thus removed, we may make the following remarks:

(1) The age in which he lived was undoubtedly one of great wickedness. Enoch is selected as the only one of that generation signalized by eminent piety, and he appears to have spent his life in publicly reproving a sinful generation, and in warning them of the approaching judgment; Jud_1:14-15. The wickedness which ultimately led to the universal deluge seems already to have commenced in the earth, and Enoch, like Noah, his great-grandson, was raised up as a preacher of righteousness to reprove a sinful generation.

(2) It is not improbable that the great truths of religion in that age were extensively denied, and probably among other things the future state, the resurrection, the belief that man would exist in another world, and that it was maintained that death was the end of being - was an eternal sleep. If so, nothing could be better adapted to correct the prevailing evils than the removal of an eminent man, without dying, from the world. His departure would thus confirm the instructions of his life, and his removal, like the death of saints often now, would serve to make an impression which his living instructions would not.

(3) His removal is, in itself, a very important and instructive fact in history. It has occurred in no other instance except that of Elijah; nor has any other living man been transported to heaven except the Lord Jesus. That fact was instructive in a great many respects:

(a) It showed that there was a future state - another world.​
(b) It showed that the “body” might exist in that future state - though doubtless so changed as to adapt it to the condition of things there.​
(c) It prepared the world to credit the account of the ascension of the Redeemer. If Enoch and Elijah were removed thus without dying, there was no intrinsic improbability that the Lord Jesus would be removed after having died and risen again.​
(d) It furnishes a demonstration of the doctrine that the saints will exist hereafter, which meets all the arguments of the sceptic and the infidel. One single “fact” overturns all the mere “speculations” of philosophy, and renders nugatory all the objections of the sceptic. The infidel argues against the truth of the resurrection and of the future state from the “difficulties” attending the doctrine. A single case of one who has been raised up from the dead, or who has been removed to heaven, annihilates all such arguments - for how can supposed difficulties destroy a well-authenticated “fact?”​
(e) It is an encouragement to piety. It shows that God regards his friends; that their fidelity and holy living please him; and that “in the midst of eminent wickedness and a scoffing world it is possible so to live as to please God.” The conduct of this holy man, therefore, is an encouragement to us to do our duty though we stand alone; and to defend the truth though all who live with us upon the earth deny and deride it.​
etc.

There's no scripture to support such 'twisted version' claim that Jesus had a change of body.
How about 1 John 3:2 WEB:

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​
 

FaithWillDo

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What a waste of 'quotes'?

Just quote the scripture where Enoch and Elijah died and buried, thank you.
Dear Fred J,
God's Word is NEVER a waste. This is a blasphemous statement.

Concerning Elijah, when he was transported into the heavens in a chariot of fire, he did not die nor did he leave the earth. He was transported to another location. How do we know? Because of what chapter 21 of 2Chronicles says:

2Ch 21:4 Now when Jehoram had taken over the kingdom of his father [Jehoshaphat] and made himself secure, he killed all his brothers with the sword, and some of the rulers of Israel also.

2Ch 21:14 Then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying, “Thus says the LORD God of your father David, ‘Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah…”


Elijah sent a letter to Jehoram several years after he was transported to another location on earth in the chariot. This was also well after Elisha had taken up Elijah's ministry. Elijah was not taken up to heaven in a chariot nor did he die at that time. Though no specific scripture states when Elijah did die, he obviously lived for many more years after his chariot ride.

As for when Elijah appeared with Christ and Moses on the mountain, that event was only a vision. Moses and Elijah were not really there.

Concerning Enoch, here are the verses:

Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

You have to read into this scripture things it does not say to believe that Enoch did not die when God took him. The reason why many people do though is because of what is said in Heb 11:5:

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated (G3346) that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated (G3346) him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

However, the verse above is poorly translated. The translation of the Greek phrase "metatithēmi" (G3346) is where the misunderstanding occurs.

Heb 11:5 is the only place in scripture that translates the Greek phrase "metatithemi" as "translated". In English, it seems to mean that Enoch was changed from a physical body into a spiritual body, and therefore, did not ever die. But this understanding cannot be true because it is contradicted by many other scriptures - some of which I presented to you in my previous post.

Let's look now at another place in scripture where the Greek phrase "metatithemi" is used and where it is translated better:

Acts 7:16 And were carried over (G3346) into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.

In Heb 11:5 concerning Enoch, the writer was only saying that Enoch was transported by God to another location so that he could avoid being killed. God did this for Enoch because He was pleased with Enoch's testimony that he made to a certain group of people. But evidently, this group of people was offended by Enoch's testimony and sought to kill him as a result.

If you look at the statements about the other OT faithful in that chapter, it is common for the writer of Hebrews to mention certain significant events in their lives, too. The statement about Enoch is no different.

This correct understanding of verse 5 is confirmed eight verses later in Hebrews.

In verse 13, it clearly says they the OT faithful who were mentioned in verses 4-12 "all died in faith". This includes Enoch. Enoch died just as all men eventually do.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Enoch was not translated to heaven and never died as you and others believe.

Everyone who has ever lived & died (except for Christ) is still dead in the grave waiting for the bodily resurrection that will occur at the literal end of this present age. To believe otherwise conflicts with many scriptures.

Joe
 
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FaithWillDo

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So all Christians have become apostate and no Christians will be saved - we're all doomed! Wrong! Paul warned, verse 30, "Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them". That doesn't mean that everybody will be deceived. You're "speaking perverse things", but you're not deceiving me! You have misunderstood Isaiah 28. The "another language" is simply the language of another nation. God was alluding to how he would cause the Israelites to be taken into captivity into Babylon. Albert Barnes' Notes for verse 11 says:

For - This verse is to be understood as a response to what the complaining and dissatisfied people had said, as expressed in the previous verse. God says that he will teach them, but it should be by another tongue - a foreign language in a distant land. Since they refused to hearken to the messages which he sent to them, and which they regarded as adapted only to children, he would teach them in a manner that should be “much more” humiliating; he would make use of the barbarous language of foreigners to bring them to the true knowledge of God.​
With stammering lips - The word which is used here is derived from a verb (לעג lâ‛âg), which means to speak unintelligibly: especially to speak in a foreign language, or to stammer; and then to mock, deride, laugh at, scorn (compare Isa_33:19; Pro_1:26; Pro_17:5; Psa_2:4; Psa_59:9; Job_22:19). Here it means in a foreign or barbarous tongue; and the sense is, that the lessons which God wished to teach would be conveyed to them through the language of foreigners - the Chaldeans. They should be removed to a distant land, and there, in hearing a strange speech, in living long among foreigners, they should learn the lesson which they refused to do when addressed by the prophets in their own land.​


You have misunderstood what Jesus was saying, and it seems that you have invented your so called "spiritual resurrection" as a way of understanding what he said. What Jesus meant by "Whoever believes in Me, even if he dies, shall live" (TLV), is that even though faith doesn't save us from dying, even if we do die (and all will die except those that are raptured - 1 Thessalonians 4:17) then we will still have eternal life after we are restored to life in the resurrection, when Jesus returns. By "Whoever lives and believes in me will never die" he meant that just like those that believed in him and are now dead, yet they shall live after their resurrection, likewise those that are alive and believe in him will also be resurrected to eternal life ("will never die"). Those that believe in Jesus shall not come into eternal death. The Greek that is translated as "shall never die" is more literally translated as "Shall by no means die forever".

Jesus said "Whoever believes in Me", not "whoever has been made spiritually alive and believes in me" - you're once again adding to and corrupting Scripture.


I'm trying to resist the temptation, because this is not part of the "24 elders" topic of this thread!
Dear keithr,
You said:
So all Christians have become apostate and no Christians will be saved - we're all doomed! Wrong! Paul warned, verse 30, "Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them". That doesn't mean that everybody will be deceived. You're "speaking perverse things", but you're not deceiving me! You have misunderstood Isaiah 28. The "another language" is simply the language of another nation. God was alluding to how he would cause the Israelites to be taken into captivity into Babylon.

Nearly all the NT teachings on the pathway to salvation include a time of falling away prior to an Elect person's conversion. The time that every Elect person spends as a "man of sin" is called a time of "great tribulation" and it occurs during Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought. This time of drought occurs between the times a person receives the Early and Latter Rains.

When the Latter Rain eventually falls on an Elect babe, they will have their spiritual blindness healed so that they can see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (Mat 24:15). This truth is confirmed by many scriptures. Here is one of them:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/a man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Since the death of Paul, all babes in the church will experience a time of being deceived by Satan. No babe can avoid it.

As for your comments on Christ's "another language", Christ spoke His teachings to the Jews in Hebrew and not some other nation's language. But since Christ's words were "spirit", they carried meanings that were different than how man's wisdom defines them. This usage of spirit words made Christ's Hebrew into "another language" - a language that mankind (including babes) cannot understand. Only converted believers who have the Spirit of Truth are given the ability to understand Christ's spiritual language. This truth is taught by Paul's conversion when the scales fell from his eyes. This healing only occurs when a person receives the Latter Rain (the baptism). This truth is also taught in Mark 8:15-25.

I have sufficiently explained the truth about how Christ saves His Elect in my previous posts. If you can't receive what I posted there, you are not going to be able to accept other scriptures that teach the same truth. There is no point in continuing our discussion. Christ has not removed the scales from your eyes yet - but He will someday because scripture proclaims that he will.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I am not going to respond to your other post to me.

Joe
 
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Davy

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I like to very much see your Scripture to prove this Davy!

1. Eccl.12:5-7 -- mentions if the "silver cord" is loosed (severed), then the flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, but the spirit goes back to God Who gave it.

2. 1 Corinthians 15:44 -- there is a "natural body", and there is (present tense) a "spiritual body."

3. 1 Corinthians 15:49 -- as we have borne the "image of the earthy", we shall also bear the "image of the heavenly". This does NOT mean to assume... that "image of the heavenly" doesn't exist until the resurrection. By this verse Paul simply reveals the existence of 2 separate dimensions of existence, this earthly dimension of material flesh, and the heavenly dimension of Spirit.

4. 2 Corinthians 5 -- Paul revealed that our spirit body already exists with us at present while in the flesh.

5. Matthew 10:28 -- Jesus said to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul. That means our soul continues on to God along with our 'spirit' of Eccl.12. Both soul and spirit are attached together, and are of the heavenly dimension.

6. John 3:6 -- Jesus revealed that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. That means our flesh body is of one type of order, and our spirit body with soul is of another type of order. We cannot mix up the two as if they both are of the same order. Eccl.12 with the idea of the "silver cord" reveals how our spirit body with soul is attached to our flesh body while alive on earth. If that "silver cord" is severed, or loosed as the KJV says, then the flesh goes back to the earth, but the spirit goes back to God in the heavenly dimension. It's that simple.

7. 1 Corinthians 15:50 -- Paul said that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (spiritual body). This means NO new flesh body for the future kingdom of God. Jesus said in the resurrection they are "as the angels of God in heaven". He meant that literally about the heavenly image body state.

8. 1 Kings 17 -- Elijah prayed that the soul of the child would RETURN to the child's flesh body, showing a separation between the soul and the flesh.

9. 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:5-6 -- Jesus preached The Gospel to the "spirits in prison" which was about those who had died back to the time of Noah. 1 Peter 4:5-6 reveals He preached The Gospel to the dead so they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. That Jesus would go to those in darkness at Satan's pit prison and lead the prisoners out was Old Testament prophecy for His 1st coming, per Isaiah 42:7.

10. Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man -- a story Jesus gave that is accurate about which place we go when we die, both are in Paradise, one side is hell where the rich man's spirit was taken to, and to the bosom of Abraham on the other side across a great fixed gulf is where the poor beggar Lazarus was taken to. The unbelieving Jews treat that story by Lord Jesus as some sort of parable when Jesus was telling it like it actually is.


The body as you refer to it is being kept until the appearing of Christ.

That's what I used... to believe a long, long time ago, before I studied all the Scripture evidences I listed above.

1 Peter 1:4: “To an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.”

2 Timothy 4:8 “Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day...”




His literal body was destroyed - completely dead! No different to the Literal Temple in AD70!


Made immortal - correct! Jesus became Immortal dangerous topic Davy - still no one in this forum could answer the questions!

Yes, the raised body must be clothed with immortality!

This is the Gospel Davy!

Romans 1:1-4 1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,

What is the difference between the Son of Man and the Son of God with power?

I'm sure you will work it out!

I suggest you look up the 4 Greek words Apostle Paul used in 1 Corinthians 15:53 & 54. To have eternal Life through Christ Jesus it involves TWO CHANGES, not just one. The first change will happen to all that are still alive on earth on the day of Jesus' future coming, and is about the change from the flesh body to a "spiritual body". The spirit body is not... glorious state of Salvation in Christ, it is just a heavenly type body for the soul to dwell in. The "resurrection of damnation" will have that spiritual body too. The 2nd change is "this mortal" (soul) must put on "immortality" through Faith on Jesus Christ. The wicked will NOT go through that 2nd change, but their souls will still be in a 'liable to die' condition throughout Christ's future "thousand years" reign. One of those 4 Greek words Paul used about "this mortal" part means exactly that, liable to die (at the "second death").

The "second death" of Rev.20 is the casting of one's spiritual body with soul into the "lake of fire". When Lord Jesus returns, this present flesh world will be over. Everyone will be in spirit bodies, and that includes the wicked, for even the wicked dead will be resurrected to the "spiritual body", which is the type body of the resurrection. Their souls will still be 'dead' without Christ though, and still liable to perish in the later "lake of fire".
 
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Hiddenthings

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1. Eccl.12:5-7 -- mentions if the "silver cord" is loosed (severed), then the flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, but the spirit goes back to God Who gave it.
Wow Davy are you for real man! That's a crack up! :jest:

The image is that of a golden lamp hanging from a beam by a long silver cord. When the cord snaps, the lamp crashes to the ground, shattering into pieces—its oil spilled, its light extinguished forever. No amount of effort, however skilled or prolonged, can restore it. Like Humpty Dumpty, it cannot be put back together again, not by human hands. (Speaks to the need for resurrection!)

It's a poetic description of death and the irreversible end of life.

If you interpret Scripture like this what is the point of reading the remainder of your post?

Ecclesiastes ONLY teaches that at death, the breath of life returns to God who gave it, not an eternal, conscious spirit or divine essence. It emphasizes the return of the life force, not the continuation of a separate, immortal soul.

But thanks for the laugh!
 

Hiddenthings

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@Davy can I suggest next time you quote one Scripture (just one!) that you feel supports your immortal soul, body in heaven theology.
 

Hiddenthings

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For others here who hold to the false teaching of immortal soulism Ecclesiastes goes on in the same verse to make it abundantly clear!

“Before the pitcher is shattered at the spring”

refers to a vessel taken to collect water. As it is carried home, it slips and falls onto the pavement, breaking into pieces and spilling its contents beyond recovery. It can no longer carry the life-sustaining water.

“Or the wheel broken at the well”

Alludes to the mechanism used to draw water, often a wheel that lifts a bucket or skin from the well. Once the wheel is broken, the process of drawing water must stop!

These vivid metaphors symbolize the human body. More specifically, the imagery may be interpreted as follows:
  • The silver cord represents the spinal cord
  • The golden bowl symbolizes the head or skull
  • The pitcher may represent the kidneys
  • The wheel is suggestive of the heart, which draws and circulates blood, much like lifting water from a well.
The message is clear: when any of these essential parts of the body fail, the entire system quickly breaks down and life ends.

@Davy, here's a free lesson for you: Always read Scripture in context, and consider the original audience, who often understood the poetic imagery far better than we do today.

Whatever you do, don’t impose false ideas onto the Word, because when the true interpretation comes to light, it makes the error painfully obvious and deeply unconvincing.
 
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Hiddenthings

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It’s ironic how some Christians weaken the impact of Scripture by promoting misleading interpretations. Take, for example, Davy’s unfortunate use of the image of the lamp hanging from the ceiling.

Let’s imagine, for a moment, that the writer’s intent was to portray an immortal soul ascending to Heaven to dwell peacefully with God.

Sounds lovely, doesn’t it?

But what does the Preacher go on to say?

“Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher. “Everything is meaningless.” Eccl 12:8

It is only in the complete cessation of life that the author confronts us with the stark reality: a life that ends, breath returned to God, and then nothing, is, indeed, meaningless.

Yet, the ultimate conclusion of the book is this: serve God while you live, holding on to the hope of being raised to newness of life.

@Davy if you can erase the use of Ecclesiastes from your mind and never do that again I think a lot of people would be thankful!
 

Fred J

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You are only following a doctrine of men, and it looks like its man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY that you are following, which wrongly believes those 24 elders are already reigning with Christ today in Heaven, and having already received their rewards! That's where your idea comes from, NOT from those Scriptures. And it's EASY to know I speak the Truth by the following...

Rev 5:9-13
9 And they sung
a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

WHEN are Christ's faithful servants to be made kings and priests, to reign with Jesus? At Jesus' FUTURE COMING. That hasn't happened yet today! Anyone that says it has is telling a huge LIE.

These Scriptures about the 24 elders around the throne are in that same group singing that "new song". I wonder just WHAT song that will be? Most likely the "song of Moses" written of in Deuteronomy 31-32 and mentioned in the Revelation 15 Chapter, which contains yet ANOTHER FUTURE FORWARD TIMELINE VIEW LIKE THIS ONE.


11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
KJV


But go ahead, be a SUCKER for men's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY that you have believed and that is teaching you those 24 elders are ruling in Heaven right now with Lord Jesus.

Here's the icing on the cake...

Heb 11:39-40
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith,
received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
KJV

Hebrews 11 is especially about the Old Testament saints. That would supposedly... be half of the 24 elders of Rev.4 & 5. They are NOT to be "made perfect" without us. That means they still have NOT yet received their rewards. Rev.4 & 5 is giving a FUTURE-FORWARD TIMELINE VIEW.
No need to 'babble' a lot, stretching it to even judge me on things i've not said.

Now you think you know about the 'rapture' excellently, therefore quote the scripture where the 'patriarchs of Israel' are included in the rapture?

When Enoch and Elijah are part of the 'patriarch of Israel', who were already 'taken up' to Heaven, to you are they 'asleep' still waiting for the rapture?

Stop 'ranting' and 'railing' about things that are not 'relevant', no scripture 'quotes' to refute me, but judge about things i've not said.

Calling me 'SUCKER', seriously very Christian of you?
 

Fred J

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You are wrong about that. 1 Cor.15:45 reveals that Jesus' body was made "a quickening spirit",
To you Jesus was made 'a quickening spirit', meaning, He did not have truly a human body?
as does 1 Peter 3:18-19 reveals also. Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This flesh and blood as to men of sin, and death have power, is 'mortal', besides Jesus' without sin, and death have no power, is 'immortal'.
 

Fred J

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Hebrews 11:5 WEB
(5) By faith, Enoch was taken away, so that he wouldn’t see death, and he was not found, because God translated him. For he has had testimony given to him that before his translation he had been well pleasing to God.​
This quote, 'GOD translated him', is not referring to at all Enoch had 'a change of body'.

But rather, 'GOD moved him from one place or condition to another'.

In other words, 'Enoch had been translated from the earthly realm to the Heavenly realm.
How about 1 John 3:2 WEB:

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​
So 'shortsighted' for you to refute me with this quote, add to your faith knowledge and wisdom and not 'folly', thank you.

Apostle John said, 'It is not yet revealed what we will be', this is because they haven't received the 'change of body'.

And, He will be revealed on His second coming in the 'clouds', and the dead in Christ shall rise. Then we which are alive and remain, together will be 'changed' from this 'mortal' to 'immortality', and 'raptured'.

So, 'we will be like Him', and 'not' He will be like us, when we meet Him in the 'clouds'.

Therefore, 'we will see Him just as He is', in the same body with 'wounds' and 'scars' as 'proof', likewise how Apostle John and the others 'saw' Him after the 'resurrection'.
 
M

Muna

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What do you think about how these worded

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not **see death**? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Jesus answer and how its worded

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep **my saying**, he shall never **see death**.

Same shown in Enoch and how its worded

Heb 11:10 **By faith** Enoch was translated that he should not **see death**; and was** not found**, because God had translated him: for **before** "his translation" he had this testimony, that he pleased God.