None of these verses speak about the church the body of Christ. They speak of Gentile salvation. That God would save the Gentiles was not a secret. What was a secret was that Gentiles along with Israel would be in the body of Christ.
DID THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS SPEAK OF THE MYSTERY?
- Thread starter Doug
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'For though I preach the gospel,
I have nothing to glory of:
for necessity is laid upon me;
yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation (an Administration) of the gospel is committed unto me.
What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel,
I may make the gospel of Christ without charge,
that I abuse not my power in the gospel.'
(1Cor. 9:16-18)
'If ye have heard of the dispensation (administration or stewardship)
of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:'
(Eph 3:2)
Hello @Davy.
Two dispensations (i,e., stewardships or administrations) were committed to Paul. The later one necessitated that he become. 'The Lord's Prisoner'.
* How does the Holy Spirit (Who is the Author of the Scriptures) employ the word 'Gospel'?
The Gospel
The Gospel of the Kingdom
The Gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God
The Gospel of the Grace of God
The Gospel of God
The Gospel of His Son
The Gospel of Christ
The Gospel of Peace
My gospel (Paul)
Our gospel ..
The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
The Everlasting Gospel
* Each needs to be looked at within it's context: for if we assume that they are all referring to the same 'good news' of God, without checking, we could be doing despite to the word of God.
'But contrariwise, when they saw
that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me,
as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
(For He that wrought effectually in Peter
to the apostleship of the circumcision,
the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)'
(Gal 2:7-8)
Just thoughts
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Nah... you've only decided to listen to charlatans LIE to you. Don't tell me you've been giving them your money too.
You might want to read Paul's preaching The Gospel in the Jew's synagogue per Acts 13:16-46. So even Apostle Paul FIRST WENT AND PREACHED THE GOSPEL TO THE JEWS, even though the majority of the Jews rejected The Gospel Paul preached to them.
You might want to read Acts 15:13-19 too where Apostle James declared how Simeon (Peter) remarked that God did at the first visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His name. And how the prophets wrote in agreement with that, with James quoting Old Testament prophecy from Amos 9:11-12 about the Gentiles who The Gospel would also go to.
Then note in Acts 17 Paul preached The Gospel in the Jewish synagogue at Thessalonica to JEWS. Then in Acts 14:22 Paul preached the "kingdom of God". Per Acts 20:25 Paul said he preached the "kingdom of God". And per Acts 28:23, when Paul was prisoner in his own house in Rome, Paul preached the "kingdom of God" to the Jews who still rejected it, so Paul said it would then go to the Gentiles. Then Paul's mention of the "kingdom of God" when preaching The Gospel is found throughout his Epistles.
So the men you wrongly... listen to, are pushing LIES about The One Gospel and who all Apostle Paul preached to. The Gospel of Jesus Christ includes the preaching of the "kingdom of God".
Thus I find men's ignorance on the false doctrine you are on runs to new levels of height, taking short phrases from The Bible and creating a whole 'other' doctrine with it!
Davy
Well-Known Member
You are speaking with a forked tongue now!
You well KNOW what Jesus was saying there in that verse about Paul...
Acts 9:15
15 But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
KJV
The priest Ananias which Jesus was speaking to asked Lord Jesus if He was sure about Saul (Paul), that he was a great persecutor of the Church. The above was Jesus' answer.
But YOU already know that, but evidently TRY to rewrite that above phrase of Jesus saying He chose Paul to bear His name ALSO to "the children of Israel"!
Davy
Well-Known Member
In reality as written though, the IDEA of Greek oikonomia ("dispensation") is actually about the idea of 'administration'. What men's false doctrines are calling more than one Gospel is actually the idea of 'administrations' of The ONE Gospel. Apostle Paul was chosen to preach The Gospel also to Israel, and not just the Gentiles only, and this is easily shown in Acts. So if Paul had a different Gospel that was for the Gentiles, then how is it that he preached the Gospel to Israel?
Thus the Galatians 2:7-8 Scripture by Paul explains 2 different 'administrations', or 'apostleships' of the One Gospel of Jesus Christ. It does NOT mean two different Gospels, it means two different ADMINISTRATIONS of the One Gospel.
The kingdom which Jesus preached is the SAME kingdom of God which all... the Apostles preached, including Apostle Paul. Likewise with the SAME Gospel of Jesus Christ. You trying to use phrase separations to try and isolate them into unrelated subjects is what I was warning Doug about.
Davy
Well-Known Member
YES THEY DID speak of the 'mystery', it's silly to not recognize that FACT which even Apostle JAMES admitted!
Apostle James speaking, and quoting from Old Testament Book of Amos 9:11-12...
Acts 15:14-19
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom My name is called, saith the Lord, Who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
KJV
James speaks of Peter's experience back in Acts 10 with the Gentiles. Then James says the Old Testament prophets agree with Peter who first experienced the 'mystery', with his preaching The Gospel to the Gentiles, and God using Peter's dream of unclean animals to represent the Gentiles, to not call them unclean. I mean, this is basic New Testament Bible 101 stuff!
What then is the real issue about the 'mystery' Paul spoke of? The mystery is that back in Old Testament times, the prophets and Israel did not yet know the Gentiles were to also receive Salvation, and that even though God had given them to prophesy about it and write it down!
How could that be? It is because God's Word is The Living Word; God does not always reveal everything The Holy Spirit gave His servants to write down, but that His servants must at times wait until it's time for its fulfillment, or close to when it is to be fulfilled, or has already been fulfilled. Yet like God said, He tells us of things before they happen (Isaiah 42:9).
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[Rom 12:4-5 KJV] 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Paul was talking about the body of Christ
'But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
to make thee a minister and a witness
both of these things which thou hast seen,
and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from The People,
and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
.. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light,
.... and from the power of Satan unto God,
...... that they may receive forgiveness of sins,
........ and inheritance among them which are sanctified
.......... by faith that is in Me.
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
.. But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem,
... and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles,
...... they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
........ For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
Having therefore obtained help of God,
.. I continue unto this day,
.... witnessing both to small and great,
...... saying none other things
........ than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
............ That Christ should suffer,
.............. and that He should be the first that should rise from the dead,
................. and should shew light unto The People (Israel), and to the Gentiles.
(Act 26:16-23)
Hello Davy,
Whenever the words, 'The People' are written, it refers to the people of Israel. Yes, all through his ministry during the Acts period, in which the epistles were written to the Galatians, 1& 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Hebrews and Romans, He always went to the Jew first. They had priority every time, because it was important that they come to repentance, to carry out God's plan for them as a nation, to become priests unto God among the nations. This is why Paul preached to the men of Israel assembled at Pentecost, saying,
'But those things, which God before had shewed
.. by the mouth of all His prophets,
.... that Christ should suffer,
...... He hath so fulfilled.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
.. that your sins may be blotted out,
.... when the times of refreshing shall come
...... from the presence of the Lord;
........ And He shall send Jesus Christ,
.......... which before was preached unto you:
............ Whom the heaven must receive
............. until the times of restitution of all things,
................ which God hath spoken
.................. by the mouth of all His holy prophets
.................... since the world began'.
(Act 3:18-21)
* As we know, they did not come to repentance at that time, and it now awaits a future day for it's fulfillment.
* Paul did preach the Kingdom of God right up until the end of the Acts period of approx. forty years.
'And when they had appointed him a day,
there came many to him into his lodging;
to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God,
persuading them concerning Jesus,
both out of the law of Moses,
and out of the prophets,
from morning till evening.'
(Act 28:23 )
'Preaching the kingdom of God,
and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ,
with all confidence, no man forbidding him.'
(Act 28:31 )
* He was talking to the Jew here, and as he says elsewhere :-
'And unto the Jews I became as a Jew,
that I might gain the Jews;
to them that are under the law, as under the law,
that I might gain them that are under the law;
To them that are without law, as without law,
(being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,)
that I might gain them that are without law.'
(1Co 9:20-21)
* He adjusted his message to whom he was speaking at the time, in order to gain some of them for Christ. That was Paul's goal.
This is now long, I'm sorry,
But I could see no other way to respond
There is more that must be said to complete the picture,
but I must leave this here.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Davy
Well-Known Member
Wait a minute, IF... your bottom statement is trying to refer to the verse you put above it, then that is definitely false what you are saying, because the 2 years that Paul was prisoner in his house at Rome, he did not preach only... to Jews , but mostly to Gentiles. And in Acts 26 Paul is speaking to king Agrippa, of Idumean (Esau) birth.
And Paul still did not lie to gain followers, one must be careful with that one, because it can lead to blasphemy against the written Bible Scripture, concerning Paul. For example, Paul never claimed he was a Gentile, but instead born a Jew, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Hello @Davy,
They did not recognise what they were saying as a mystery, they simply spoke the words which the spirit of Christ gave them to say: that is why I said 'No'. They simply spoke the words that God gave them to speak, and they did not always understand what was being said, as the reference from 1 Peter 1:10 that I quoted, said.
* 'The Mystery of Christ' is best understood by reading Ephesians 3:4-5:-
'Whereby, when ye read,
ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;'
(Eph 3:4-5)
* This is where I close, for I am tired.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hello @Davy,
If your intention is to twist my every word, then you can speak to someone else, for I am not interested in playing games.
I spoke to you in good faith, but your intention is obviously not honest.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Davy
Well-Known Member
Nah... not what you were saying in your post #62. There you tried to insert the idea of TWO mysteries in the Scripture, one you called "The Mystery", and the other you called "The Mystery of Christ". They are both the same thing. You are only doing what those on man's Hyperdispensationalist doctrines teach you. Because that Salvation would go also to the Gentiles was first written of in the Old Testament prophets, Hyper-dispensationalists have to... account for that. That's all you are doing, following their theory to account for the Old Testament writings about the same... "mystery" which was revealed to Apostle Paul, yet was actually revealed to Apostle Peter first!
Acts 11:1-18
11 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3 Saying, "Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them."
4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
5 "I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, "Arise, Peter; slay and eat."
8 But I said, "Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth."
9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."
10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12 And the spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, "Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, "John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as He did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."
KJV
Davy
Well-Known Member
If you think I'm twisting YOUR words, and playing games with you, then you are a lot further deceived by men's doctrines than I had first thought. You need to REPENT and get back to what the actual Bible Scripture declare 'as written', instead of heeding those Hyper-dispensationalist doctrines of men.
Davy
Well-Known Member
BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
The Hyper-Dispensationalist, or Hyper-Grace movement (both same thing), vainly attempts to separate Apostle Paul's Epistles from the rest of The Bible with claiming ONLY Paul's Epistles are for Christ's Church. That is their main pipeline theory, everything else based on that, especially Paul's "mystery".
They may claim that the rest of The Bible is for our learning, but it is not specifically written to the Church.
Thus the actual name of their GAME is ISOLATIONISM. That meaning a false isolation of Apostle Paul's Epistles from the rest of The Bible, including isolation from The Four Gospel Books!
That is why THEY PLAY GAMES with The Bible Scripture, REJECTING the Biblical fact that Apostle Peter was actually first given to understand Salvation going also to the Gentiles, with Peter having preached The Gospel to those Gentiles (Acts 10 & 11).
Likewise they make the false claim that there exists TWO Gospels, and not just one Gospel of Jesus Christ. They create a FALSE SEPARATION of The ONE GOSPEL into two when the Galatians 2:7-8 Scripture Paul spoke of simply means two different apostleships of The One Gospel of Jesus Christ.
It's actually very SILLY what their false doctrine does, dividing up Bible phrases and creating unwritten doctrines with those phrases. I fault men's false Pre-trib Rapture doctrines with that, because that false doctrine actually creates ANOTHER COMING by Christ that is nowhere written of in all of God's Word! That is a violation of the Revelation 22 warning against ADDING to the Bible Scripture.
The Hyper-Dispensationalist, or Hyper-Grace movement (both same thing), vainly attempts to separate Apostle Paul's Epistles from the rest of The Bible with claiming ONLY Paul's Epistles are for Christ's Church. That is their main pipeline theory, everything else based on that, especially Paul's "mystery".
They may claim that the rest of The Bible is for our learning, but it is not specifically written to the Church.
Thus the actual name of their GAME is ISOLATIONISM. That meaning a false isolation of Apostle Paul's Epistles from the rest of The Bible, including isolation from The Four Gospel Books!
That is why THEY PLAY GAMES with The Bible Scripture, REJECTING the Biblical fact that Apostle Peter was actually first given to understand Salvation going also to the Gentiles, with Peter having preached The Gospel to those Gentiles (Acts 10 & 11).
Likewise they make the false claim that there exists TWO Gospels, and not just one Gospel of Jesus Christ. They create a FALSE SEPARATION of The ONE GOSPEL into two when the Galatians 2:7-8 Scripture Paul spoke of simply means two different apostleships of The One Gospel of Jesus Christ.
It's actually very SILLY what their false doctrine does, dividing up Bible phrases and creating unwritten doctrines with those phrases. I fault men's false Pre-trib Rapture doctrines with that, because that false doctrine actually creates ANOTHER COMING by Christ that is nowhere written of in all of God's Word! That is a violation of the Revelation 22 warning against ADDING to the Bible Scripture.
I really dont get what you find significant here...........Paul was sent to the children of Israel.......so????
I posted this to you, did you miss it?
Saying the mystery of Christ is type and shadow does not prove they are speaking of the mystery of Christ......please give me some verses........for example show me in the old testament prophets where they speak about the body of Christ being a new creature.(2 Cor 5:17)......show me where the prophets say how God forgives sin.(Rom 3:25).........show me where they said Jesus would shed his blood for all not just Israel(Rom 5:9}.........show me where they say believers will be caught up in the air to be with Christ forever(1 Thes 4:17)
You say the mystery pertained to secret revelations given Paul in prison as opposed to the mystery of Christ given to the prophets to write down, even if they didnt understand what they were writing
So my point is, what I asked you to show me were the scriptures in the prophets that spoke of the above mysteries......all of these mysteries were not from the prison epistles
This is the verse about the cross..........................[Act 10:39 KJV] 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Nothing about salvation
