Question for Premils (Amils welcome to answer): How many times are the dead judged?

[grafted branch]

BUT the rest of the dead, those who have NOT yet been born again with the Spirit of Christ, their bodies rot in the grave AND in their spirit, they live not again (don't have life) UNTIL they are raised to stand before the throne and be judged at the end of millennial kingdom, when Christ returns! Read the text.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

When do you think Daniel 12:2 takes place? If dead believers are currently reigning with Christ in His eternal kingdom, when did or will some resurrect to eternal life at the same time as those who resurrect to eternal contempt? Do you see this taking place at the final judgment?

 

[IndianaRob]

Where does it say that? Nowhere. You make it up as you go to support your heresy.

Hebrews 12:22-24 says, “But ye are come (plural perfect active indicative) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”

These highlighted references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

Interestingly, we see “the spirits of just men made perfect,” who I believe correlate with “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.” The beast is simply this world, and his mark is that final mark of reprobation which the damned ultimately receive.

You know it’s a pretty serious offense to call a biblical doctrine a heresy even it it is in ignorance.

According to those verses there are three options for life in heaven:

1. Live in heaven in the old body - No
2. Live in heaven naked (no body) - No
3. Live in heaven in the heavenly house(glorified body). I say yes.

Are there any other options that I missed? Which option do you say it is?

 

[WPM]

You know it’s a pretty serious offense to call a biblical doctrine a heresy even it it is in ignorance.

According to those verses there are three options for life in heaven:

1. Live in heaven in the old body - No
2. Live in heaven naked (no body) - No
3. Live in heaven in the heavenly house(glorified body). I say yes.

Are there any other options that I missed? Which option do you say it is?

You are an expert at avoidance. You are ducking around several posts above that refute your heresy.

 

[IndianaRob]

You are an expert at avoidance. You are ducking around several posts above that refute your heresy.

You post stuff not even related to the subject. Do you know how to debate a single bible verse. Maybe not, I’ll try to show your hard head how it works.

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Debater 1 - grammatically this verse CAN NOT point to a future “second coming”.

Debater 2 - debater 1, you’re wrong because that verse was mistranslated or because the definition of “come again” is - the second coming.

Debater 1 - show me the dictionary definition you got that from.

Debater 2 - I didn’t get it from a dictionary I just know what that means.

This verse requires no other verses to define what this verse is talking about. We can actually debate this verse on what IT IS SAYING without the need to go to other verses.

Not all verses are that way, some verses do not contain enough information to define itself so you have to go to other verses for clarification.

THIS IS NOT ONE OF THOSE VERSES.

Now see if you conduct an actual debate rather than name calling and deflections to 50 other out of context UN-NEEDED verses for the subject at hand.

If you can’t do that then how about not responding to my posts.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There seems to be only one judgment of the dead mentioned in the New Testament and in the Revelation:

The door that had been opened in heaven for John (immediately before he was made aware of the scroll's existence), allowed John to be able to see the throne of God, and he saw "lightnings and thunderings and voices" coming out from the throne (Revelation 4:5).

We read of "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" at the time of the receiving of the testimony (Exodus 20:18),

and we see it again in the scroll when the seventh trumpet sounds, and again when the seventh plague or bowl of wrath is poured out. The events of both the seventh trumpet and the seventh plague or "bowl of wrath" symbolize God's judgment.

Exodus 20:18: Receiving of the testament:

"And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off."

7th TRUMPET

"And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament, and occurred lightnings and voices, and thunders and an earthquake, and a great hail." (Revelation 11:19).

7th PLAGUE

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done! And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And there was a great earthquake, such as has not been since men were on the earth, so mighty and so great an earthquake." (Revelation 16:17-18).

7th SEAL (Note: a scroll is only sealed after the scroll has been written in order to seal its contents):

"And the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar, and cast it into the earth. And voices and thunderings and lightnings and an earthquake occurred."

The scroll unrolled after the 7th seal was loosened, so we could view its contents - which were in place BEFORE the scroll was sealed:

"And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." (Revelation 8:5-6).

This is not an end-times chart. Just a summary of what the passages are talking about that use the symbolism of lightnings and thunderings:

View attachment 68854

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx​

In Joshua chapter 6 there were seven priests blowing seven trumpets announcing the decree of Jericho's impending judgment, and the walls of Jericho fell when the 7th trumpet sounded, the 7th time the Israelite tribes marched around the city, on the 7th of 7 days.

In the Revelation there are seven angels with seven trumpets announcing to the nations the decree of God regarding their impending judgment; and the cities of the nations are said to fall when the seventh of the seven angels pours out his bowl of wrath.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx​

Revelation 15: The temple of the tabernacle of the testimony was opened in Heaven (verse 5):

* Four beasts
* sea of glass
* those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 4:

* 24 elders.
* clothed in white raiment.
* crowns of gold on their heads.
* sea of glass.
* Four beasts.
* Out of the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices.

* The earthly tabernacle was a pattern of the 'tabernacle' in heaven.

* The testament that was in the ark of the testament in the earthly tabernacle consisted of the 10 Commandments representing all the law - and it's a testimony against us - see Jeremiah 31:31-33.

The nations seen being judged in the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19) are judged by the 10 commandments because without the blood of Christ covering "the mercy seat" there is no forgiveness for sins - which is the transgression of the law.

Revelation 11 (7th trumpet)

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

How many times are the dead judged? (there seems to be only one judgment of the dead mentioned in the New Testament and in the Revelation).

The dead are judged once and their judgment is described in Revelation 20:11-15. The seventh trumpet signals "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". This strongly supports amillennialism.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you really think dead Christians are allowed into to heaven BEFORE the judgement? Are dead lost people “hibernating” in the ground waiting to be judged?

Seriously is that how you believe it works?

Passages like John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 have all people, including all Christians (resurrected and living) being judged at the same time. The souls and spirits of dead Christians are in heaven and Christian martrys are there waiting for their deaths to be avenged (Revelation 6:9-11). After the resurrection of the dead when Jesus returns then all people will have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves, as depicted in Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[IndianaRob]

Passages like John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 have all people, including all Christians (resurrected and living) being judged at the same time. The souls and spirits of dead Christians are in heaven and Christian martrys are there waiting for their deaths to be avenged (Revelation 6:9-11). After the resurrection of the dead when Jesus returns then all people will have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves, as depicted in Matthew 25:31-46.

The Old Testament saints went to Abraham’s bosom without glorified bodies. As soon as Christ was resurrected, they were given heavenly bodies. Nobody goes to heaven without a heavenly body.

 

[Davidpt]

The dead are judged once and their judgment is described in Revelation 20:11-15. The seventh trumpet signals "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". This strongly supports amillennialism.

How does Revelation 11 possibly support Amil, in light of these things below throughout my post here? Look what all happens after the 7th trumpet has already sounded. You don't do those things to someone already dead, such as what is recorded in verse 15 and 19 below.

And the seventh angel sounded(Revelation 11:15)

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come---and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth(Revelation 11:15)

and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail(Revelation 11:19)

Look how the ch ends. You seriously want us to believe that Revelation 20:11-15 is what is in view rather than Revelation 16 and the vials of wrath? What do you think it means in verse 15 when the text says--and thy wrath is come? You don't think that has anything to do with the vials of wrath recorded in Revelation 16?

Not to mention, until all of the lost dead are all dead first, in the meantime how can there be a resurrection of the lost dead if they are not even all dead after the 7th trumpet has sounded?

Does this sound like all of the lost are all dead at this point---And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come---and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth(Revelation 11:15)?

Does this sound like all of the lost are all dead at this point---and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail(Revelation 11:19)?

I'm certin it makes perfect sense that Revelation 20:11-15 involves an earthquake, and great hail during the great white throne judgment---not.

You insist context matters, right? Nothing per the context pertaining to Revelation 11:19 supports that Revelation 20:11-15 is in view, though.

Just because this is recorded in verse 15---and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great---that doesn't mean all of the dead, both saved and lost, are meant here. How can it mean the lost is meant here as well when Revelation 11:19 does not support that? Obviously, an earthquake and great hail is only relevant if there is still someone physically alive at the time.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


This seems to be where Revelation 11:19 left off. Then look at verse 19. the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell--which then might explain why the nations are angry at the time--Revelation 11:15.

Why does the great city get divided into three parts, which causes the cities of the nations to fall, after the 7th trump has sounded if after the 7th trump it is immediately the time pertaining to Revelation 20:11-15?

Not to mention, how are we to make any sense out of Revelation 16:19 in regards to the great city being divided into 3 parts when you per your ultra literal interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12 have the entire planet literally engulfed in flames at the time? Assuming your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12 is correct, though clearly it is not, it makes verses like 19 in Revelation 16 redundant, since cities, in any sense, make zero sense if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time.

Not to mention, Revelation 16:21, as if it makes sense, that if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time, let's do this as well--And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Wonder why they are not blaspheming God because they are literally being burned to a crisp(your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12) because the planet is engulfed in flames? Obviously, you don't even recognize a contradiction when it is staring you straight in the face. Revelation 16:21 alone contradicts your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12. No one would be complaining about great hail out of heaven at the time, if at the time the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames.

I have you all figured out after all these years. You have your theology all mapped out and that you keep it in this box of yours. That's what you argue from. You are unable and or unwilling to argue outside of that box you have your mapped out theology placed in. That's why you have quick answers for everything. I'm not saying you don't think outside of the box generally speaking. I'm saying you don't think outside of the box you have your mapped out theology placed in.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Old Testament saints went to Abraham’s bosom without glorified bodies. As soon as Christ was resurrected, they were given heavenly bodies. Nobody goes to heaven without a heavenly body.

False teaching.

Where does it say in Scripture that the "old testament saints" went to a holding place called "abraham's bosom" without "glorified bodies? You made it up.

Think about it carefully, what bodies did Moses and Elijah have when they appeared with the glorified Christ at the Transfiguration, even before the resurrection, humm?

 

[IndianaRob]

False teaching.

Where does it say in Scripture that the "old testament saints" went to a holding place called "abraham's bosom" without "glorified bodies? You made it up.

Think about it carefully, what bodies did Moses and Elijah have when they appeared with the glorified Christ at the Transfiguration, even before the resurrection, humm?

Good point I’ll have to dig into that. I may believe that because I’m still carrying dispensational baggage. I’ll report back after I study it a little bit.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We won’t be naked in heaven we’ll have our glorified bodies. Which is what Paul is talking about here:

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Yes I read your earlier post and we are too far apart in beliefs to have a discussion.

How can that be talking about having glorified bodies when just after that Paul said this...

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul indicated that while we are at home in the body (physically/bodily alive) on the earth then we are absent from the Lord who is in heaven. Because of that, he said we would rather be absent from the body (physically/bodily dead) so that we can be present with the Lord. So, Paul clearly indicated that departing from the body results in being present with the Lord without a body. Our souls and spirits go to heaven when we die. What believers who are physically/bodily dead are clothed with while waiting for the resurrection of their bodies is heaven itself. It's not until the last trumpet sounds that our bodies will be changed to put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-52) and the last trumpet hasn't sounded yet.

 

[Zao is life]

So does that mean we are in naked in heaven, unclothed, until the judgement that you say is future?

How do you reconcile us being naked in heaven with 2 Corinthians 5?

2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

God created human beings with one body, soul and spirit. Your soul and spirit don't grow limbs of their own when your body dies.

The part of what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5 which you omitted from your quote is this:

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

When we become absent from the body, we will be present with Christ until the resurrection of the body when Christ returns - which is also the time of the regeneration of all things, as Paul also taught:

Romans 8
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope
21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.
23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?
25 But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience.

It will be seen at the time of the resurrection of the dead when Christ returns. This is why John saw a vision of souls without their bodies asking God how long it would be before He avenges their blood:

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.​

 

[Davidpt]

Good point I’ll have to dig into that. I may believe that because I’m still carrying dispensational baggage. I’ll report back after I study it a little bit.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

As to John 14:3 that has been brought up. There is another option besides your proposed interpretation and the typical interpretation.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?


One thing that is undeniable, He was clearly meaning Thomas, for one. So let's insert Thomas into the text and see if we can make any sense out of it.

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me, Thomas.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you, Thomas. I go to prepare a place for you, Thomas.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, Thomas, I will come again, and receive you, Thomas, unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also, Thomas.

What should we logically conclude from the text in regards to Thomas? Any and all doctrinal bias' aside.

A) Thomas is already in heaven with Jesus as we speak.

B) Thomas is not already with Jesus in heaven as we speak since Thomas can't be with Jesus to begin with until Jesus comes again, therefore, Thomas is not in heaven as we speak since Jesus hasn't come again yet.

 

[IndianaRob]

False teaching.

Where does it say in Scripture that the "old testament saints" went to a holding place called "abraham's bosom" without "glorified bodies? You made it up.

Think about it carefully, what bodies did Moses and Elijah have when they appeared with the glorified Christ at the Transfiguration, even before the resurrection, humm?

I don’t recall and I can’t find any thing in the Bible that says they had bodies or that they didn’t have bodies.

I think a concensus can be made from various scriptures to say that they didn’t but that’s just my opinion and not something I would want to dive into right now.

 

[TribulationSigns]

As to John 14:3 that has been brought up. There is another option besides your proposed interpretation and the typical interpretation.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?


One thing that is undeniable, He was clearly meaning Thomas, for one. So let's insert Thomas into the text and see if we can make any sense out of it.

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me, Thomas.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you, Thomas. I go to prepare a place for you, Thomas.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, Thomas, I will come again, and receive you, Thomas, unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also, Thomas.

What should we logically conclude from the text in regards to Thomas? Any and all doctrinal bias' aside.

A) Thomas is already in heaven with Jesus as we speak.

B) Thomas is not already with Jesus in heaven as we speak since Thomas can't be with Jesus to begin with until Jesus comes again, therefore, Thomas is not in heaven as we speak since Jesus hasn't come again yet.

Tell me when did the thief on the cross go upon his death?

Luk 23:42-43
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

And how about this:

Php 1:23
(23) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul wrote that he expected to be with Christ at death. He also wrote:

2Co 5:8
(8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Clearly, Paul did not talk about centuries of unconscious waiting, unlike the unbelievers (the rest of the dead) per Revelation 20. He expected death to mean instant presence with Christ for the believers. This applies to all Saints from the Old and New Testament, regardless of when Christ resurrected. Remember God is outside time, seeing from beginning to end.

The same way God did not bring end to Adam and Eve in a thunderclap when they first sinned, is becasue he saw his son on the Cross in the distant future, which applied His salvation to them, right there! Ie. put clothing on them with sheep skin as an example.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I don’t recall and I can’t find any thing in the Bible that says they had bodies or that they didn’t have bodies.

I think a concensus can be made from various scriptures to say that they didn’t but that’s just my opinion and not something I would want to dive into right now.

Come on. How did the disciples see Moses and Elijah in bodily form, talking with Christ? Read carefully:

Mat 17:1-3
(1) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
(2) And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
(3) And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Clearly, this implies some visible, perceptible form, not just a vision. And their form have been glorified, since it is the "transfiguration" - Jesus' own body was radiantly glorified.

And the disciples "saw" and "heard" the conversation with Jesus. Not as a ghost or "bodyless" as you want to believe based on man-made "consensus" LOL!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How does Revelation 11 possibly support Amil, in light of these things below throughout my post here?

Do you agree that the seventh trumpet signals "the time of the dead that they should be judged" or not? That's what it says. When are the dead judged? After the thousand years, as shown in Revelation 20:11-15. What is hard to understand about this? You make simple things convoluted for no reason.

Look what all happens after the 7th trumpet has already sounded. You don't do those things to someone already dead, such as what is recorded in verse 15 and 19 below.

The earth is destroyed just before the dead are judged. You believe that the dead are judged right after Revelation 20:9 occurs, don't you? If a trumpet sounded just before the fire comes down, as described in Revelation 20:9, couldn't it be considered a trumpet that signals the destruction of those who destroy the earth as well as signaling the time for the dead to be judged? Of course it could.

Look how the ch ends. You seriously want us to believe that Revelation 20:11-15 is what is in view rather than Revelation 16 and the vials of wrath? What do you think it means in verse 15 when the text says--and thy wrath is come? You don't think that has anything to do with the vials of wrath recorded in Revelation 16?

It's the final wrath that will occur when Jesus returns. The seventh vial is parallel to the seventh trumpet. Do you not think that Jesus returns at the seventh and last trumpet? Do you not think that the seventh trumpet is the same as the last trumpet referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54?

Not to mention, until all of the lost dead are all dead first, in the meantime how can there be a resurrection of the lost dead if they are not even all dead after the 7th trumpet has sounded?

LOL. Things will happen quickly once Jesus comes, so that's why the seventh trumpet can signal both the destruction of those who destroy the earth and their judgment.

Does this sound like all of the lost are all dead at this point---And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come---and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth(Revelation 11:15)?

Is that what I said? You are making yet another strawman argument here. Why do you never tire of making strawman arguments?

I'm certin it makes perfect sense that Revelation 20:11-15 involves an earthquake, and great hail during the great white throne judgment---not.

That's not what I said. You are misrepresenting what I believe for the thousandth time (but, not literally...probably been more times than that).

You insist context matters, right? Nothing per the context pertaining to Revelation 11:19 supports that Revelation 20:11-15 is in view, though.

The context of the verse is in relation to Christ's enemies being destroyed and then believers being rewarded and unbelievers being judged. How can you not see how climactic the verse is? It says the kingdom(s) of the world become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and the Son at that point. How can you think a bunch of other stuff still happens after that? You are the one not seeing the context.

Just because this is recorded in verse 15---and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great---that doesn't mean all of the dead, both saved and lost, are meant here.

Why not?

How can it mean the lost is meant here as well when Revelation 11:19 does not support that? Obviously, an earthquake and great hail is only relevant if there is still someone physically alive at the time.

Hello? You understand that many unbelievers will be judged shortly after being physically destroyed, right? You do believe that the judgment described in Revelation 20:11-15 takes place right after Revelation 20:9 occurs, don't you?

Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

This seems to be where Revelation 11:19 left off. Then look at verse 19. the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell--which then might explain why the nations are angry at the time--Revelation 11:15.

Why does the great city get divided into three parts, which causes the cities of the nations to fall, after the 7th trump has sounded if after the 7th trump it is immediately the time pertaining to Revelation 20:11-15?

Goodness sakes. I am not saying that Revelation 20:11-15 happens immediately after the seventh trumpet sounds. What I'm saying is that living unbelievers are destroyed at the seventh trumpet and then judged right after that. The seventh trumpet signals both the physical destruction of living unbelievers and the judgment of all resurrected unbelievers, including the ones who had just been destroyed.

Not to mention, how are we to make any sense out of Revelation 16:19 in regards to the great city being divided into 3 parts when you per your ultra literal interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12 have the entire planet literally engulfed in flames at the time? Assuming your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12 is correct, though clearly it is not, it makes verses like 19 in Revelation 16 redundant, since cities, in any sense, make zero sense if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time.

Once again, you fail to differentiate between symbolic and literal text. Amazingly, you interpret the text from Revelation literally and the text from 2 Peter 3 symbolically. That is just unbelievable. Somehow, you decide to interpret the text from the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible literally and the text in 2 Peter 3 symbolically, despite there being no indication whatsoever that 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meant to be interpreted symbolically rather than literally.

Not to mention, Revelation 16:21, as if it makes sense, that if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time, let's do this as well--And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Wonder why they are not blaspheming God because they are literally being burned to a crisp(your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12) because the planet is engulfed in flames? Obviously, you don't even recognize a contradiction when it is staring you straight in the face. Revelation 16:21 alone contradicts your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12. No one would be complaining about great hail out of heaven at the time, if at the time the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames.

LOL. You are truly hilarious. You once again are failing to recognize symbolism. The weight of a talent is about 70-75 pounds. If taken literally, hail stones that size would immediately destroy anyone they landed on. So, that isn't meant to be taken literally. Look at the verse just before that one.

Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

If this happened literally, no one on earth could survive. So, the idea that anyone would still be literally alive after this and blaspheming God is ridiculous. Also, how can it be said that Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night if a bunch of major destruction is going on even before the day He comes? Surely, if things like this were happening literally before He comes with people surviving it then people would know He is about to come at any time and it wouldn't be unexpected as a thief in the night in that case.

How about you put your money where your mouth is for once and tell me exactly how you think 2 Peter 3:10-12 should be understood.

I have you all figured out after all these years. You have your theology all mapped out and that you keep it in this box of yours. That's what you argue from.

LOL. My theology doesn't cause scripture to contradict itself like yours does. You act so sure about things like this, but you can't even tell me how 2 Peter 3:10-12 should be interpreted. All you can say is that it shouldn't be interpreted literally. Why not?

You are unable and or unwilling to argue outside of that box you have your mapped out theology placed in. That's why you have quick answers for everything.

I have studied these things for a long time now, so I don't need to apologize for knowing what I believe by now and being able to quickly have answers ready. I didn't just start studying these things yesterday.

I'm not saying you don't think outside of the box generally speaking. I'm saying you don't think outside of the box you have your mapped out theology placed in.

Whatever. If you're going to insist that I'm not interpreting 2 Peter 3:10-12 correctly, then tell me how it should be interpreted. And tell me how else I should understand Revelation 11:18 saying that the seventh trumpet is signaling the time of the dead being judged? What do you think, that it says it's the time of the dead being judged but then they aren't actually judged until 1,000+ years later?

 

[IndianaRob]

How can that be talking about having glorified bodies when just after that Paul said this...

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul indicated that while we are at home in the body (physically/bodily alive) on the earth then we are absent from the Lord who is in heaven. Because of that, he said we would rather be absent from the body (physically/bodily dead) so that we can be present with the Lord. So, Paul clearly indicated that departing from the body results in being present with the Lord without a body. Our souls and spirits go to heaven when we die. What believers who are physically/bodily dead are clothed with while waiting for the resurrection of their bodies is heaven itself. It's not until the last trumpet sounds that our bodies will be changed to put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-52) and the last trumpet hasn't sounded yet.

The first verse would help. If our earthly house were dissolved we HAVE (present tense) a heavenly house.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Chargpt question - Based on grammar alone, no cbiblical commentary, does this verse say the house is already built or does it say the house isn’t built yet.

Grammatically, yes — the verse says the house is already built and possessed.

• The verb “we have” is present tense, indicating current possession.
• The conditional (“if our earthly house… were dissolved”) does not change the tense of “have”; it only sets up the situation in which this possession is realized or experienced.
• Nothing in the sentence grammar indicates the house must be built in the future.

Conclusion: according to the grammar alone, the house of God exists now, even if we don’t yet experience it.

 

[IndianaRob]

Come on. How did the disciples see Moses and Elijah in bodily form, talking with Christ? Read carefully:

Mat 17:1-3
(1) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
(2) And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
(3) And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Clearly, this implies some visible, perceptible form, not just a vision. And their form have been glorified, since it is the "transfiguration" - Jesus' own body was radiantly glorified.

And the disciples "saw" and "heard" the conversation with Jesus. Not as a ghost or "bodyless" as you want to believe based on man-made "consensus" LOL!

I’m not arguing against what you’re saying but right now that’s not something I want to invest time deep diving into.

 

[IndianaRob]

As to John 14:3 that has been brought up. There is another option besides your proposed interpretation and the typical interpretation.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?


One thing that is undeniable, He was clearly meaning Thomas, for one. So let's insert Thomas into the text and see if we can make any sense out of it.

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me, Thomas.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you, Thomas. I go to prepare a place for you, Thomas.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, Thomas, I will come again, and receive you, Thomas, unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also, Thomas.

What should we logically conclude from the text in regards to Thomas? Any and all doctrinal bias' aside.

A) Thomas is already in heaven with Jesus as we speak.

B) Thomas is not already with Jesus in heaven as we speak since Thomas can't be with Jesus to begin with until Jesus comes again, therefore, Thomas is not in heaven as we speak since Jesus hasn't come again yet.

If what you propose were true, that would mean that Thomas is in heaven right now. That means that Thomas would have to come to earth and be present when Jesus comes again.

Is this not correct?