Question for Premils (Amils welcome to answer): How many times are the dead judged?

[Spiritual Israelite]

The first verse would help. If our earthly house were dissolved we HAVE (present tense) a heavenly house.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Chargpt question - Based on grammar alone, no cbiblical commentary, does this verse say the house is already built or does it say the house isn’t built yet.

Grammatically, yes — the verse says the house is already built and possessed.

• The verb “we have” is present tense, indicating current possession.
• The conditional (“if our earthly house… were dissolved”) does not change the tense of “have”; it only sets up the situation in which this possession is realized or experienced.
• Nothing in the sentence grammar indicates the house must be built in the future.

Conclusion: according to the grammar alone, the house of God exists now, even if we don’t yet experience it.

The house of God is heaven. The souls and spirits of the dead in Christ are clothed with heaven itself while they await the redemption of their bodies. Why did you not respond to what I said about 2 Corinthians 5:6-8? Do you not care that your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 contradicts what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8? You are basically arguing that you need a body to be present with the Lord in contrast to Paul saying that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So, why are you willing to contradict what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8?

 

[IndianaRob]

The house of God is heaven. The souls and spirits of the dead in Christ are clothed with heaven itself while they await the redemption of their bodies. Why did you not respond to what I said about 2 Corinthians 5:6-8? Do you not care that your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 contradicts what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8? You are basically arguing that you need a body to be present with the Lord in contrast to Paul saying that to be absent from the body is to be pre with the Lord. So, why are you willing to contradict what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8?

Either you refuse to read verses or your reading comprehension is terrible.

The house is the TABERANCLE the soul lives in, the house isn’t heaven. The house is IN heaven waiting for this earthly house to be dissolved.

Grammatically, yes — the verse says the house is already possessed.

• The verb “we have” is present tense, indicating current possession.
• The conditional (“if our earthly house… were dissolved”) does not change the tense of “have”; it only sets up the situation in which this possession is realized or experienced.
• Nothing in the sentence grammar indicates the house must be built in the future.

Conclusion: according to the grammar alone, the house of God exists now, even if we don’t yet experience it.

 

[Zao is life]

The dead are judged once and their judgment is described in Revelation 20:11-15. The seventh trumpet signals "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". This strongly supports amillennialism.

My question (note: my question, not my statement) is:

Bearing in mind that chapter divisions were only added to scripture circa 1227 A.D and verse divisions even later, during the 16th century,

is the judgment of the dead (Revelation 20:11-15) meant to be part of the same chapter?

You agree with me that Revelation 20:11-15 is concluding the subject introduced in Revelation 11:18-19 regarding the judgment of the dead, which takes place at the time of the return of Christ;

and Revelation 11 tells us that it is at this time when the kingdoms of this world will have become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Messiah, and He shall reign to the ages of the ages. Revelation 21 follows Revelation 20:11-15.

The resurrection, the judgment of the just and of the unjust, the judgment of the dead, death being swallowed up in victory, "no more death", the tree of life, immortality, etc - they are all talking about the same things, and 1 Corinthians 15:19-28 & 51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 leave us in no doubt as to the timing of it.

But here's the loose spoke in the wheel:

The fact remains, something is written about a thousand years in the first verses of Revelation 20, and where it's written, there's no mention of 'the beast and false prophet' existing during that thousand years

- but there is indeed a mention of those who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands:

They had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and they lived [zao - they were alive] and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

QUESTION: Are we then supposed to date the commencement of that thousand years before or after the ascension of the beast from the abyss and the appearance of the false prophet?

It won't be uncommon in prophetic scripture - or even in the Revelation, to close with a conclusion of something that had been introduced earlier,

so IF Revelation 20:11-15 were included as the first verses of chapter 21 when chapter divisions were added to the text in 1227 AD, then it would be clear that Revelation 20:1-10 are talking about a separate thing.​

THE BEGINNING AND THE END WRITTEN INTO
THE FIRST THREE AND THE LAST THREE CHAPTERS OF THE BIBLE

Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end,
the first and the last."
(Revelation 22:13).​

Open: Beginning of time - God's creation (Genesis 1:1-31).
Close: Christ makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

Open: Perfectly good (Genesis 1:31).
Close: Only righteousness dwells in it (Revelation 21:27).

Open: Tree of life (Genesis 2:9, 16-17).
Close: Tree of life (Revelation 21:6; Revelation 22:1-2, 14, 17).

Open: Adam given dominion (Genesis 1:26-28).
Close: The dominion of the last Adam (Revelation 3:21; 20:4).

Open:

(a) Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

(b) Death becomes the experience of the created humans.

(c) Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24).

(d) Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years (Genesis 5:5).
​

Jesus said, "I am the Resurrection [anastasis]
and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25).​

Close (7th and final trumpet):

(a) The Resurrection and the judgement of the dead:

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." (Revelation 11:17-19).

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15).​

THIS SEEMS OUT OF PLACE:

(a) Saints reigning with Christ a thousand years (who had not worshiped the beast or his image)

(b) Satan's deception of the nations at the close of a thousand years (Revelation 20:7-10).

(c) Gog-Magog host devoured by fire coming down from God out of heaven (Revelation 20:9).​

 

[Zao is life]

No Premil has answered the question directly yet. I'm hoping a Premil will answer the question:

How many times are the dead judged? (there seems to be only one judgment of the dead mentioned in the New Testament and in the Revelation).

 

[Davidpt]

Do you agree that the seventh trumpet signals "the time of the dead that they should be judged" or not?

I agree it means that in regards to the saved. I already argued why I disagree that the lost are meant as well. For one thing, if some of the lost are raised and judged before all of the lost are even dead first, what about the lost that die afterwards? What resurrection event are they raised in?

This is not true of the saved, that there can't be a resurrection of the saved until all of the saved are dead first. The same is not true of the lost. There cannot be a resurrection of the lost until all of the lost are dead first.

The earth is destroyed just before the dead are judged. You believe that the dead are judged right after Revelation 20:9 occurs, don't you? If a trumpet sounded just before the fire comes down, as described in Revelation 20:9, couldn't it be considered a trumpet that signals the destruction of those who destroy the earth as well as signaling the time for the dead to be judged? Of course it could.

This is one of these deals, and I have mentioned it in this past, what you bring up here is problematic for both Amil and Premil not just Amil, or not just Premil. Both views believe Revelation 20:11-15 pretty much immediately follows the deaths of all the lost.

It's the final wrath that will occur when Jesus returns. The seventh vial is parallel to the seventh trumpet. Do you not think that Jesus returns at the seventh and last trumpet? Do you not think that the seventh trumpet is the same as the last trumpet referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54?

Of course I do. But the point is, once the 7th trumpet sounds, a resurrection event occurs at that time, except it can't be a resurrection event involving the lost since not all of the lost are even dead yet. If Revelation 11:19 alone doesn't prove that, nothing does.

LOL. Things will happen quickly once Jesus comes, so that's why the seventh trumpet can signal both the destruction of those who destroy the earth and their judgment.

In your world, maybe so, but not in mine.

Is that what I said? You are making yet another strawman argument here. Why do you never tire of making strawman arguments?

You are not unintelligent, therefore, why are you unable to discern the difference between someone making a point in general vs someone saying someone said something they never said? Show me where I ever said that you said any of that? I was just making a point in general not making strawman arguments. Is there a law against me doing that? Yet, there should be a law against someone falsely accusing someone of something they did not do nor even came to mind. You are not me. You don't have the ability to get inside of my head and speak for what I was doing or not doing, period. If you having reading comprehension in some cases, don't take that out on me by falsely accusing me of doing things I'm not doing nor even even came to mind. And what is ironic about it, you are the one making the strawmans about me making the strawmans. Too funny. I needed a good laugh for the day. Thanks for the good laugh if nothing else.

That's not what I said. You are misrepresenting what I believe for the thousandth time (but, not literally...probably been more times than that).

Here we go yet again, and so soon on top of that. It never ends with you, you obviously enjoy falsely assuming things that are not even remotely true in regards to what you insist someone is doing. Refer to my last paragraph prior to this one. It equally applies here as well.

This is all I care to address for now.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Either you refuse to read verses or your reading comprehension is terrible.

The house is the TABERANCLE the soul lives in, the house isn’t heaven. The house is IN heaven waiting for this earthly house to be dissolved.

Grammatically, yes — the verse says the house is already possessed.

• The verb “we have” is present tense, indicating current possession.
• The conditional (“if our earthly house… were dissolved”) does not change the tense of “have”; it only sets up the situation in which this possession is realized or experienced.
• Nothing in the sentence grammar indicates the house must be built in the future.

Conclusion: according to the grammar alone, the house of God exists now, even if we don’t yet experience it.

Is there something you don't understand about Paul saying to be ABSENT from the BODY is to be PRESENT with the LORD? Why are you contradicting that by saying you need to have a body to be present with the Lord? Why are you not understanding that you are BLATANTLY contradicting 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 with your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5:1-5? You also blatantly contradict 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 which says our bodies will be changed to be immortal at the seventh trumpet. So, all of our bodies will be changed at the same time when the seventh trumpet sounds, but you say they are changed immediately upon death. Why are you so comfortable with contradicting so much scripture?

 

[Davidpt]

No Premil has answered the question directly yet. I'm hoping a Premil will answer the question:

How many times are the dead judged? (there seems to be only one judgment of the dead mentioned in the New Testament and in the Revelation).

What point are you trying to make over all? That maybe Amil is true Premil isn't?

 

[Davidpt]

If what you propose were true, that would mean that Thomas is in heaven right now. That means that Thomas would have to come to earth and be present when Jesus comes again.

Is this not correct?

What do you think I am proposing? I already mentioned two things, your proposed interpretation and the typical interpretation, and that I said there is yet another option. Can't be either of those if there is another option. Except this other option is not a view I currently hold, yet it is the only thing I can think of that doesn't contradict John 14:3.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree it means that in regards to the saved. I already argued why I disagree that the lost are meant as well. For one thing, if some of the lost are raised and judged before all of the lost are even dead first, what about the lost that die afterwards? What resurrection event are they raised in?

Good grief. Talking to you is painful. I never said that anyone is judged before all of the lost are dead first. What is the name of the strawman you're talking to? I said that all of the lost dead will be judged after the lost living are all killed. Why can't the seventh trumpet signal both of those things if they happen one right after the other, as I believe? That's what you believe in relation to what is described in Revelation 20:9 and what is described after that, isn't it?

This is not true of the saved, that there can't be a resurrection of the saved until all of the saved are dead first. The same is not true of the lost. There cannot be a resurrection of the lost until all of the lost are dead first.

Strawman argument. If you take away all of your strawman arguments, what is left? Not much. You never understand what anyone else believes for whatever reason.

Let me ask you a few questions for clarification. Do you believe that Jesus will return at the last trumpet? If so, don't you believe that the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet? Why wouldn't you believe that the lost dead will be resurrected and judged when Jesus returns when we see a description of lost people (referred to as the goats) being judged and cast into everlasting fire when Jesus returns in Matthew 25:31-46?

This is one of these deals, and I have mentioned it in this past, what you bring up here is problematic for both Amil and Premil not just Amil, or not just Premil. Both views believe Revelation 20:11-15 pretty much immediately follows the deaths of all the lost.

Then why are you having a problem with me seeing Revelation 11:15-18 as describing the seventh trumpet as describing the destruction of living unbelievers (the time to destroy those who destroy the earth) followed closely after by the rewards for believers and judgment (condemnation) of unbelievers (the time of the dead, that they should be judged)?

Of course I do. But the point is, once the 7th trumpet sounds, a resurrection event occurs at that time, except it can't be a resurrection event involving the lost since not all of the lost are even dead yet. If Revelation 11:19 alone doesn't prove that, nothing does.

Wait a minute here. If you agree that Jesus returns at the seventh trumpet, then why do you try to insist that a bunch of stuff happens after that, like all of the vials of God's wrath and so on? Once He returns, we will be caught up to Him and He will take vengeance on His enemies. There's no reason to think that will take much time.

In your world, maybe so, but not in mine.

LOL. All of our bodies will be changed in a moment, but you somehow have a problem with me believing that other things that will happen on the day Christ returns (resurrection of the dead, destruction of Christ's enemies) will happen quickly, also.

You are not unintelligent, therefore, why are you unable to discern the difference between someone making a point in general vs someone saying someone said something they never said?

I don't think it requires intelligence to figure out what in the world you are saying here. If it does, then I guess I am unintelligent because I have no idea what you're saying here.

Show me where I ever said that you said any of that? I was just making a point in general not making strawman arguments.

You're talking to me. Why would you say things that don't pertain to me and what I believe? How would I know that you're doing that when it doesn't even make any sense for you to do that while talking to me?

Is there a law against me doing that?

No, but I don't see any reason why you would do that. You're talking to me here, so why not say things that pertain to what I believe?

Yet, there should be a law against someone falsely accusing someone of something they did not do nor even came to mind. You are not me. You don't have the ability to get inside of my head and speak for what I was doing or not doing, period. If you having reading comprehension in some cases, don't take that out on me by falsely accusing me of doing things I'm not doing nor even even came to mind. And what is ironic about it, you are the one making the strawmans about me making the strawmans. Too funny. I needed a good laugh for the day. Thanks for the good laugh if nothing else.

I'm the one laughing. You are the one talking to me, but for some inexplicable reason saying things that don't pertain to me. Yeah, I'm the one laughing here because that makes no sense.

Here we go yet again, and so soon on top of that. It never ends with you, you obviously enjoy falsely assuming things that are not even remotely true in regards to what you insist someone is doing. Refer to my last paragraph prior to this one. It equally applies here as well.

This is all I care to address for now.

Don't bother addressing anything else I ever say. It's not worth it. It's impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What point are you trying to make over all? That maybe Amil is true Premil isn't?

Why can't you just answer his question first before finding out why he is asking it? Do you have an answer to the question? It's interesting how he is asking Premils that question, but mostly what we've had in this thread so far is a lot of nonsense from a full preterist and no answers from Premils.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My question (note: my question, not my statement) is:

Bearing in mind that chapter divisions were only added to scripture circa 1227 A.D and verse divisions even later, during the 16th century,

is the judgment of the dead (Revelation 20:11-15) meant to be part of the same chapter?

You agree with me that Revelation 20:11-15 is concluding the subject introduced in Revelation 11:18-19 regarding the judgment of the dead, which takes place at the time of the return of Christ;

and Revelation 11 tells us that it is at this time when the kingdoms of this world will have become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Messiah, and He shall reign to the ages of the ages. Revelation 21 follows Revelation 20:11-15.

The resurrection, the judgment of the just and of the unjust, the judgment of the dead, death being swallowed up in victory, "no more death", the tree of life, immortality, etc - they are all talking about the same things, and 1 Corinthians 15:19-28 & 51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 leave us in no doubt as to the timing of it.​

I agree so far. If death being swallowed up in victory isn't a description of no more death, then I don't know what is. And, I don't see any basis for there being more than one judgment of the dead.

But here's the loose spoke in the wheel:

The fact remains, something is written about a thousand years in the first verses of Revelation 20, and where it's written, there's no mention of 'the beast and false prophet' existing during that thousand years​

There's also no mention of the beast and false prophet not existing during that thousand years, so we can't conclude anything one way or another relating to that just from Revelation 20 alone.

- but there is indeed a mention of those who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands:

They had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and they lived [zao - they were alive] and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

QUESTION: Are we then supposed to date the commencement of that thousand years before or after the ascension of the beast from the abyss and the appearance of the false prophet?​

Obviously, as an Amil, my answer is before. The beast gets its power from the dragon (Satan - Rev 13:4), so it makes perfect sense to me that if the beast is in the abyss, then so is the dragon (Satan) since they are codependent.

It won't be uncommon in prophetic scripture - or even in the Revelation, to close with a conclusion of something that had been introduced earlier,​

I agree.

so IF Revelation 20:11-15 were included as the first verses of chapter 21 when chapter divisions were added to the text in 1227 AD, then it would be clear that Revelation 20:1-10 are talking about a separate thing.​

THE BEGINNING AND THE END WRITTEN INTO
THE FIRST THREE AND THE LAST THREE CHAPTERS OF THE BIBLE

Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end,
the first and the last."
(Revelation 22:13).​

Open: Beginning of time - God's creation (Genesis 1:1-31).
Close: Christ makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

Open: Perfectly good (Genesis 1:31).
Close: Only righteousness dwells in it (Revelation 21:27).

Open: Tree of life (Genesis 2:9, 16-17).
Close: Tree of life (Revelation 21:6; Revelation 22:1-2, 14, 17).

Open: Adam given dominion (Genesis 1:26-28).
Close: The dominion of the last Adam (Revelation 3:21; 20:4).

Open:

(a) Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

(b) Death becomes the experience of the created humans.

(c) Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24).

(d) Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years (Genesis 5:5).
​

Jesus said, "I am the Resurrection [anastasis]
and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25).​

Close (7th and final trumpet):

(a) The Resurrection and the judgement of the dead:

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." (Revelation 11:17-19).

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15).​

THIS SEEMS OUT OF PLACE:

(a) Saints reigning with Christ a thousand years (who had not worshiped the beast or his image)

(b) Satan's deception of the nations at the close of a thousand years (Revelation 20:7-10).

(c) Gog-Magog host devoured by fire coming down from God out of heaven (Revelation 20:9).​

I'm not clear on what you were intending to say here. I think the only way to make sense of the book of Revelation is to understand that it is a series of recapitulations or parallel sections that all account for the time period between the first and second coming of Christ (and all the things related to that) while showing His second coming from different angles. At least, I see that as being the case up until Revelation 21 at which point the new heavens and new earth are described.

 

[Zao is life]

What point are you trying to make over all? That maybe Amil is true Premil isn't?

You never answered the question in your reply, and assumed that I've been trying to make a point.

If you read my reply to (Post # 43) @Spiritual Israelite you will understand that I'm not trying to make the point you ask if I'm trying to make.

I'm not trying to make any point.

I always understood the judgment of the dead mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15 to be something which would come at the close of the (literal) thousand years, but when I read someone - I don't even remember who now - quoting Revelation 11:18 and I read the scripture, the Spirit (I believe) brought Revelation 20:11-15 to mind and I compared the two, and the Spirit (I believe) caused me to understand that the dead are only judged once.

Then once more when @Spiritual Israelite quoted the words in Revelation 11:18 "and the time of the judging of the dead" I got the same sense of the Spirit's witness to the truth of his argument about that once again.

I don't necessarily assume that what I think is the Spirit giving me the understanding of something, is always or necessarily the Spirit - it could be my own though-processes.

So I put the question up here not to make a point but to see what Premils would say about it, and what Amils would say about it in their replies to the question.

But so far no Premil has replied to the question. Your response isn't a reply to the question, brother.

 

[Zao is life]

I agree so far. If death being swallowed up in victory isn't a description of no more death, then I don't know what is. And, I don't see any basis for there being more than one judgment of the dead.


There's also no mention of the beast and false prophet not existing during that thousand years, so we can't conclude anything one way or another relating to that just from Revelation 20 alone.


Obviously, as an Amil, my answer is before. The beast gets its power from the dragon (Satan - Rev 13:4), so it makes perfect sense to me that if the beast is in the abyss, then so is the dragon (Satan) since they are codependent.


I agree.


I'm not clear on what you were intending to say here. I think the only way to make sense of the book of Revelation is to understand that it is a series of recapitulations or parallel sections that all account for the time period between the first and second coming of Christ (and all the things related to that) while showing His second coming from different angles. At least, I see that as being the case up until Revelation 21 at which point the new heavens and new earth are described.

Well, when people begin refusing to worship the beast or the image of the beast or receive his mark or the number of his name,

depends on at which point the image of the beast appeared in history - and the saints in Revelation 20:4 are said to be those who did not worship the beast or the image of the beast or receive his mark or the number of his name.​

 

[Zao is life]

Either you refuse to read verses or your reading comprehension is terrible.

The house is the TABERANCLE the soul lives in, the house isn’t heaven. The house is IN heaven waiting for this earthly house to be dissolved.

Grammatically, yes — the verse says the house is already possessed.

• The verb “we have” is present tense, indicating current possession.
• The conditional (“if our earthly house… were dissolved”) does not change the tense of “have”; it only sets up the situation in which this possession is realized or experienced.
• Nothing in the sentence grammar indicates the house must be built in the future.

Conclusion: according to the grammar alone, the house of God exists now, even if we don’t yet experience it.

IndianaRob,

When the TABERNACLE that the soul lives in is the body, then the souls of those who died in Christ go to be with Christ - and so they are IN the tabernacle in heaven, clothed UPON with the heavenly tabernacle.

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The tabernacle is eternal in the heavens.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle (our bodies) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life [zoe].

The zoe (life) that is being spoken about is the eternal life [zoe] that only God possesses in Himself, but which is given to us in Christ, who alone among human beings possesses life [zoe] in Himself.

When we are clothed upon with this eternal life [zoe] then (OUR) mortality has been swallowed up of (CHRIST'S) life [zoe].
​

Source of life [zoe]: God. God exists and has always existed. He exists from eternity unto eternity. The life [zoe] that is in God, which God alone possesses in Himself, is eternal life.

The Bible tells us the following about Him:

"In the beginning was the Logos (Word), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] is the light of men." (John 1:1-4).

"And the Logos (Word) became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we (John the apostle and his companions) beheld his glory (the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.)" (John 1:14).

Regarding Himself, Jesus, the Son of God, said:

"For as the Father has life [zoe] in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life [zoe] within Himself" (John 5:26).

It is good news indeed to us that "God hath given to us eternal life [zoe], and this life [zoe] is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life [zoe]; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life [zoe]." (1 John 5:11-12).

For the soul that is no longer in the tabernacle of the body to be clothed upon with the tabernacle in heaven is to be clothed upon by this life [zoe]. When we are clothed upon with this eternal life [zoe] then (OUR) mortality has been swallowed up of (CHRIST'S) eternal life [zoe].
​

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you,

the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." Romans 8:10-11.

"If then ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:1-4).

The resurrection of the body from the dead will come when Christ returns, as the scriptures say.

 

[IndianaRob]

IndianaRob,

When the TABERNACLE that the soul lives in is the body, then the souls of those who died in Christ go to be with Christ - and so they are IN the tabernacle in heaven, clothed UPON with the heavenly tabernacle.

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The tabernacle is eternal in the heavens.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle (our bodies) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life [zoe].

The zoe (life) that is being spoken about is the eternal life [zoe] that only God possesses in Himself, but which is given to us in Christ, who alone possesses life [zoe] in Himself.

When we are clothed upon with this eternal life [zoe] then (OUR) mortality has been swallowed up of (CHRIST'S) life [zoe].
​

In the New Testament a distinction is made between life [zoe] and living | being alive [zao]:

Zoe: Life.
Zao: To live | to be alive.

In the Greek New Testament eternal life [aionios zoe] is never called aionios zao [eternally alive].

Source of life [zoe]: God.

God exists and has always existed. He exists from eternity unto eternity. The life [zoe] that is in God, which God alone possesses in Himself, is eternal life.

The Bible tells us the following about Him:

"In the beginning was the Logos (Word), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] is the light of men." (John 1:1-4).

"And the Logos (Word) became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we (John the apostle and his companions) beheld his glory (the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.)" (John 1:14).

Regarding Himself, Jesus, the Son of God, said:

"For as the Father has life [zoe] in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life [zoe] within Himself" (John 5:26).

It is good news indeed to us that "God hath given to us eternal life [zoe], and this life [zoe] is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life [zoe]; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life [zoe]." (1 John 5:11-12).

zao (living | alive): The Bible often calls God "the living God" (the God who is zao: alive) - but scripture NEVER refers to a human being whose body has died as someone who is "zao" (as someone who is alive | living).

For the soul that is no longer in the tabernacle of the body to be clothed upon with the tabernacle in heaven is to be clothed upon by this life [zoe]. When we are clothed upon with this eternal life [zoe] then (OUR) mortality has been swallowed up of (CHRIST'S) eternal life [zoe].
​

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you,

the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you."

"If then ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:1-4).

The resurrection of the body from the dead will come when Christ returns, as the scriptures say.

Zao are you saying that the house in this verse is a temporary covering until the future resurrection?

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

 

[Zao is life]

Zao are you saying that the house in this verse is a temporary covering until the future resurrection?

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Clothed upon with Christ's life forever:

G1902 ἐπενδύομαι ejpenduvomai ependuomai
middle voice from 1909 and 1746; to invest upon oneself:--be clothed upon. see GREEK for 1909 see GREEK for 1746

"For as the Father has life [zoe] in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life [zoe] within Himself" (John 5:26).

It is good news indeed to us that "God hath given to us eternal life [zoe], and this life [zoe] is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life [zoe]; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life [zoe]." (1 John 5:11-12).

"If then ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:1-4).

For the soul that is no longer in the tabernacle of the body to be clothed upon with the tabernacle in heaven is to be clothed upon by this life [zoe]. When we are clothed upon with this eternal life [zoe] then (OUR) mortality has been swallowed up of (CHRIST'S) eternal life [zoe].

And because of this, when Christ returns our dead bodies will be raised immortal, spiritual bodies:

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,
1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.
2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." Romans 8:10-11.

 

[Davidpt]

You never answered the question in your reply, and assumed that I've been trying to make a point.

If you read my reply to (Post # 43) @Spiritual Israelite you will understand that I'm not trying to make the point you ask if I'm trying to make.

I'm not trying to make any point.

I always understood the judgment of the dead mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15 to be something which would come at the close of the (literal) thousand years, but when I read someone - I don't even remember who now - quoting Revelation 11:18 and I read the scripture, the Spirit (I believe) brought Revelation 20:11-15 to mind and I compared the two, and the Spirit (I believe) caused me to understand that the dead are only judged once.

Then once more when @Spiritual Israelite quoted the words in Revelation 11:18 "and the time of the judging of the dead" I got the same sense of the Spirit's witness to the truth of his argument about that once again.

I don't necessarily assume that what I think is the Spirit giving me the understanding of something, is always or necessarily the Spirit - it could be my own though-processes.

So I put the question up here not to make a point but to see what Premils would say about it, and what Amils would say about it in their replies to the question.

But so far no Premil has replied to the question. Your response isn't a reply to the question, brother.

Here is maybe a way to look at it, and that it seems to maybe support Amil not Premil unless you can think of a way it could support Premil instead. I seriously don't care which view is actually Biblical, whether it be Premil or Amil. The issue is this. In my mind, if Amil is Biblical I then can not make sense out of numerous passages in both the OT and NT. That's one reason I keep sticking with Premil. Not because I'm anti-Amil, it's just that I can't make sense out of numerous passages if Amil is the correct position. That aside.

This verse right here might be the key in determining how many judgments there are. Do you have any thoughts on this verse?

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

I somewhat do. For example. I tend to take this to ultimately mean, that on judgment day everyone will then know everything about everyone. That only makes sense if everyone is present at the same time, both the saved and the lost, and that everything is being revealed about what both the saved and the lost did during their lifetime, every deed, every thought.

Suppose, for example, a spouse cheated on a spouse, numerous times even, but this spouse never found out before they died. Suppose in the end the spouse that cheated gets saved, except by that time the other spouse already died and was in a lost state when they died. Unless both spouses are present during the revealing of all things, how is the lost spouse supposed to find out what the other spouse did during their marriage if there is more than one judgment, one involving the saved, one involving the lost later on?

Per this scenario it would be during the judging of the saved when it is being revealed what this spouse did during their marriage prior to being saved. The other spouse is still dead, hasn't even been resurrected yet. The point being, it makes no sense to reveal every hidden thing about everyone unless all of the parties involved are all present at the time. Is this alone enough to debunk Premil? Maybe so, I'm not sure.

Something else this proves about everyone, is this, no exceptions. That just because one ends up saved that hardly means any bad deeds they did before and after being saved, that these things are not ever brought up again. Per the scenario above, unless these things are brought to light, that one spouse cheated on the other spouse numerous times, we then have to assume Jesus lied when He said what He said in Luke 12:2 if the other spouse never finds out that their spouse cheated on them numerous times before that spouse was saved, and that the lost spouse died before the other spouse was saved.

The point is, per this scenario above, the fact it is revealed that one spouse cheated on another spouse prior to that spouse being saved, undeniably proves that being saved does not mean any bad deeds a person did prior to being saved is never brought up again. I'm not suggesting that they lose their salvation at this point. I'm only saying that it is impossible that everything can be revealed about everyone if some of the things the saved did prior to being saved are never brought up again. That does not equal what Jesus said in Luke 12:2.

 

[WPM]

Here is maybe a way to look at it, and that it seems to maybe support Amil not Premil unless you can think of a way it could support Premil instead. I seriously don't care which view is actually Biblical, whether it be Premil or Amil. The issue is this. In my mind, if Amil is Biblical I then can not make sense out of numerous passages in both the OT and NT. That's one reason I keep sticking with Premil. Not because I'm anti-Amil, it's just that I can't make sense out of numerous passages if Amil is the correct position. That aside.

This is simply not true. Every time you claim this you are actually saying the opposite. You are totally anti-Amil. There is no reasoning with you. There is no objectivity in your arguments. You have zero corroboration for your view of Revelation 20. You also spiritualize away multiple literal passages in order to let your premillennialism fit.

 

[Earburner]

There seems to be only one judgment of the dead mentioned in the New Testament and in the Revelation:

The door that had been opened in heaven for John (immediately before he was made aware of the scroll's existence), allowed John to be able to see the throne of God, and he saw "lightnings and thunderings and voices" coming out from the throne (Revelation 4:5).

We read of "voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake" at the time of the receiving of the testimony (Exodus 20:18),

and we see it again in the scroll when the seventh trumpet sounds, and again when the seventh plague or bowl of wrath is poured out. The events of both the seventh trumpet and the seventh plague or "bowl of wrath" symbolize God's judgment.

Exodus 20:18: Receiving of the testament:

"And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off."

7th TRUMPET

"And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament, and occurred lightnings and voices, and thunders and an earthquake, and a great hail." (Revelation 11:19).

7th PLAGUE

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done! And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And there was a great earthquake, such as has not been since men were on the earth, so mighty and so great an earthquake." (Revelation 16:17-18).

7th SEAL (Note: a scroll is only sealed after the scroll has been written in order to seal its contents):

"And the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar, and cast it into the earth. And voices and thunderings and lightnings and an earthquake occurred."

The scroll unrolled after the 7th seal was loosened, so we could view its contents - which were in place BEFORE the scroll was sealed:

"And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." (Revelation 8:5-6).

This is not an end-times chart. Just a summary of what the passages are talking about that use the symbolism of lightnings and thunderings:

View attachment 68854

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In Joshua chapter 6 there were seven priests blowing seven trumpets announcing the decree of Jericho's impending judgment, and the walls of Jericho fell when the 7th trumpet sounded, the 7th time the Israelite tribes marched around the city, on the 7th of 7 days.

In the Revelation there are seven angels with seven trumpets announcing to the nations the decree of God regarding their impending judgment; and the cities of the nations are said to fall when the seventh of the seven angels pours out his bowl of wrath.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx​

Revelation 15: The temple of the tabernacle of the testimony was opened in Heaven (verse 5):

* Four beasts
* sea of glass
* those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 4:

* 24 elders.
* clothed in white raiment.
* crowns of gold on their heads.
* sea of glass.
* Four beasts.
* Out of the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices.

* The earthly tabernacle was a pattern of the 'tabernacle' in heaven.

* The testament that was in the ark of the testament in the earthly tabernacle consisted of the 10 Commandments representing all the law - and it's a testimony against us - see Jeremiah 31:31-33.

The nations seen being judged in the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19) are judged by the 10 commandments because without the blood of Christ covering "the mercy seat" there is no forgiveness for sins - which is the transgression of the law.

Revelation 11 (7th trumpet)

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

How many times are the dead judged? (there seems to be only one judgment of the dead mentioned in the New Testament and in the Revelation).

And here is THAT ONE judgment that was enacted by God the Father 2000+ years ago:
John 3
[18] He that believeth on him [Jesus] IS NOT condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned ALREADY,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

THE RESULTS of John 3:18:
Rev. 20
[15] And whosoever WAS NOT found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[grafted branch]

And here is THAT ONE judgment that was enacted by God the Father 2000+ years ago:
John 3
[18] He that believeth on him [Jesus] IS NOT condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned ALREADY,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

THE RESULTS of John 3:18:
Rev. 20
[15] And whosoever WAS NOT found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In both Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 20:12 the books are opened. In Daniel 7:10 the judgment is set and the books are opened, while in Revelation 20:12 people are judged out of what is written in the books.

Are you saying these are both the same event and happened at the cross, or do you see the books being opened more than once?