Rock Peter

[Hiddenthings]

i would say in those situations thats the decisions made by the leader. the one with the highest authority.
James was also leader of the Jerusalem church, wouldnt that be the church with the highest authority at the time?

All had autonomy.

 

[quietthinker]

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”

(Matthew 16:18, NET)

”There can be no higher tribute than to call a man a rock.”

(William Barclay, The Mind of Jesus, p. 173)

or there can be no greater foolishness than to attribute that which is a metaphor and apply it to the wrong person

The Greek name Petros (Πέτρος) means "stone" or "rock"and is the original form of the name Peter, given to Saint Peter by Jesus. It originates from the Aramaic word Kefa, meaning "stone" or "rock". While the related Greek word petra refers to a massive rock, Petros specifically signifies a smaller stone or pebble.

It is Jesus who is the Rock upon which the church is built, not Peter. We all know Peter's history when it came to his bold statement, “Even if I have to die with You, I will never deny You.” Matthew 26:35

 

[Matthias]

i would say in those situations thats the decisions made by the leader. the one with the highest authority.
James was also leader of the Jerusalem church, wouldnt that be the church with the highest authority at the time?

The Jerusalem church hosted the Council meeting, circa AD 50. The apostles had left Jerusalem years earlier on their missionary trips. James, as you pointed out, was the head of the poor Jerusalem church. I don’t think it was so much that the Jerusalem church had the highest authority of the established churches at the time as it was simply that James, as the host, was running the meeting.

It wasn’t James whom Jesus called “rock”. James was an apostle but he wasn’t an apostle at the level that Peter (and the others) were.

 

[Matthias]

or there can be no greater foolishness than to attribute that which is a metaphor and apply it to the wrong person

The Greek name Petros (Πέτρος) means "stone" or "rock"and is the original form of the name Peter, given to Saint Peter by Jesus. It originates from the Aramaic word Kefa, meaning "stone" or "rock". While the related Greek word petra refers to a massive rock, Petros specifically signifies a smaller stone or pebble.

It is Jesus who is the Rock upon which the church is built, not Peter. We all know Peter's history when it came to his bold statement, “Even if I have to die with You, I will never deny You.” Matthew 26:35

The foundation of the church, as Paul pointed out in Ephesians 2:19-20, is the apostles and prophets, with the Messiah being the cornerstone.

 

[jaybird]

The Jerusalem church hosted the Council meeting, circa AD 50. The apostles had left Jerusalem years earlier on their missionary trips. James, as you pointed out, was the head of the poor Jerusalem church. I don’t think it was so much that the Jerusalem church had the highest authority of the established churches at the time as it was simply that James, as the host, was running the meeting.

It wasn’t James whom Jesus called “rock”. James was an apostle but he wasn’t an apostle at the level that Peter (and the others) were.

which church had higher authority than Jerusalem?

 

[Matthias]

“And upon this rock … - This passage has given rise to many different interpretations. Some have supposed that the word ‘rock’ refers to Peter’s confession, and that Jesus meant to say, upon this rock, this truth that thou hast confessed, that I am the Messiah and upon confessions of this from all believers, I will build my church. Confessions like this shall be the test of piety, and in such confessions shall my church stand amid the flames of persecution, the fury of the gates of hell. Others have thought that Jesus referred to himself. Christ is called a rock, Isaiah 28:16; 1 Peter 2:8. And it has been thought that he turned from Peter himself, and said, ‘Upon this rock, this truth that I am the Messiah and- upon myself as the Messiah, I will build my church.’ Both these interpretations, though plausible, seem forced upon the passage to avoid the main difficulty in it. Another interpretation is, that the word ‘rock’ refers to Peter himself.

This is the obvious meaning of the passage; and had it not been that the Church of Rome has abused it, and applied it to what was never intended, no other interpretation would have been sought for. ‘Thou art a rock. Thou hast shown thyself firm, and suitable fir the work of laying the foundation of the church. Upon thee will I build it. Thou shalt be highly honored; thou shalt be first in making known the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles.’ This was accomplished. See Acts 2:14-36, where he first preached to the Jews, and Acts 10, where he preached the gospel to Cornelius and his neighbors, who were Gentiles. Peter had thus the honor of laying the foundation of the church aming the Jews and Gentiles; and this is the plain meaning of this passage. See also Galatians 2:8. But Christ did not mean, as the Roman Catholics say he did, to exalt Peter to supreme suthority above all other apostles, or to say that he was the only one upon whom he would rear his church. Ser Acts 15, where the advice of James, and not that of Peter, was followed. See also Galatians 2:11, whete Paul withstood Peter to his face, because he was to be blamed - a thing which could not have happened if Christ (as the Roman Catholics say) meant that Peter was absolute and infallible. Mire than all, it is not said here, or anywhere else in the Bible, that Peter would be the viceregents of Christ and the head of the church. The whole meaning of the passage is this: ‘I will maje you the honored instrument of making known my gospel first to Jews and Gentiles, and I will make you a firm and distinguished preacher in building my church.’”

(Barnes’ Notes on the Bible)

Matthew 16 Barnes' Notes

 

[Matthias]

which church had higher authority than Jerusalem?

None. All of the churches established by the apostles were of equal authority. A hierarchy came later in church history.

 

[JohnDB]

No......just no.

The geography and topography and history OF THE LOCATION are crucial for understanding what Jesus and ALL the apostles were told.

This is literally a proverbial elephant in a tiny room that everyone is ignoring and talking around.

Cesarea Phillipi, the "gateway to hades", and the final 6 months of Jesus's ministry tour.
There's a location that fits all these contextual elements.....giving the rest of the passage context.

Cesarea Philipi was a second city renamed after Caesar after Phillip remodeled it (other was south and west)
At every spring or water source Roman's would build a statue to one of their gods....saying "See? The gods gives us water." At this particular spring it was thought to be fed by the River Styx itself as it came out with such force. There are a total of three springs that feed the Jordan before it reaches the Sea of Galilee.
One of the three springs towards the eastern side of the base of Mt Hermon was famous. Herod had a Temple to a Baal like god....they used to sacrifice prostitutes unwanted babies at the location. Phillip changed it to a fertility class of god called Pan.

Fertility class gods needed sexual activity to arouse them and gain their attention. First the goats were brought out to begin mating....then the dancing girls doing seductive dancing....then "audience participation time". This was the famous world's largest outdoor orgy.

However....none of this "Pan worship" or "Baal worship" that makes the water ceremonially unclean is discussed.

This "rock" that Jesus declares his "church" will be built upon is not just Jesus.....His whole life, death, resurrection, his miracles and loving kindness and His personal relationship with us is the Rock. And also importantly not calling out the obvious sin and corruption going on around them.

The keys are the access to the storerooms where money, valuables, and power of Heaven to accomplish anything are kept. The second "you" is neuter and not male....meaning Jesus was talking to all the apostles at that time.

The binding and loosing is a reference to sin.....Because if you truly get and have the first part....you get to declare what actions are sin and what is not sin. What things give you a relationship with Jesus and what does not.

When later Paul writes, "Therefore, there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus" it is one of the biggest understatements of all time.

 

[Matthias]

“So they came to Caesarea Philippi, and it was against the background of Caesarea Philippi that Jesus asked the most important of all questions and received the greatest of all answers. That background makes the question of Jesus and the answer of Peter all the more astonishing. There could have been few areas with more vivid associations than the area around Caesarea Philippi.

(i) In the ancient days the whole area had been intimately connected with the worship of Baal. It had been, as Sir George Adam Smith says in The Historical Geography of the Holy Land, one of the chief dwellings of the Baalim, and may well have been the Baal-gad of which Joshua speaks (Josh. 11.17; 12.7; 13.5). Thomson in The Land and the Book enumerates no fewer than fourteen sites of ancient temples of Baal in the near neighborhood of Caesarea Philippi. Caesarea Philippi was a place where the ancient gods of Canaan brooded over the scene.”

(William Barclay, The Mind of Jesus, p. 167-168)

 

[jaybird]

None. All of the churches established by the apostles were of equal authority. A hierarchy came later in church history.

i dont think they thought of Jerusalem as just another city

 

[JohnDB]

“So they came to Caesarea Philippi, and it was against the background of Caesarea Philippi that Jesus asked the most important of all questions and received the greatest of all answers. That background makes the question of Jesus and the answer of Peter all the more astonishing. There could have been few areas with more vivid associations than the area around Caesarea Philippi.

(i) In the ancient days the whole area had been intimately connected with the worship of Baal. It had been, as Sir George Adam Smith says in The Historical Geography of the Holy Land, one of the chief dwellings of the Baalim, and may well have been the Baal-gad of which Joshua speaks (Josh. 11.17; 12.7; 13.5). Thomson in The Land and the Book enumerates no fewer than fourteen sites of ancient temples of Baal in the near neighborhood of Caesarea Philippi. Caesarea Philippi was a place where the ancient gods of Canaan brooded over the scene.”

(William Barclay, The Mind of Jesus, p. 167-168)

So then just maybe EVERYTHING I said in the post preceeding yours is true.

 

[Matthias]

i dont think they thought of Jerusalem as just another city

I don’t think they did either.

 

[Matthias]

So then just maybe EVERYTHING I said in the post preceeding yours is true.

Barclay has much more to say which I think you’ll find and appreciate supports much of what you wrote.

 

[JohnDB]

Barclay has much more to say which I think you’ll find and appreciate supports much of what you wrote.

Never read Barclay....heard the name....but I just am not familiar with his work.

I just went from the point of the conversation of Peter and Jesus not making sense.
It made me ask questions....because at this point Peter saying that Jesus was the Messiah was a "no brainer"....
But paper and ink were precious commodities...and this was written. Obviously I'm missing something here.

So I began digging into everything. And it was finally the discovery about the location that gave me the clues I needed to understand the importance.

 

[amigo de christo]

All had autonomy.

And not a one of them Ever decked themselves up in fancy robes
giving themselves flattering titles such as MOST HOLY FATHER , MOST HOLY REVERAND .
Nor had men kissing their rings and kneeling before them .
FOR JESUS had told them , the servant is not greater than HIS LORD .
WHO is greater HE who sits at meat or he who serves .
AND YET I AM AMONGST YOU AS HE who serves .
Beware of men who wear long robes and desire to be seen of men and love flattering titles
and to be seen of men .
From peter to the other eleven , NOT A ONE would have supported
what I SEE being done in much of christendom .
Men have for years Sought not the welfare of this people
but rather the wealth of said people .
They lay up for themselves and not rich TOWARD GOD .
Crying TOUCH not GODS annointed , any time a sheep tries to expose their false leader .
and this people just sits blindly under such hirelings who have done naught
but to BLASPHEME that WORTHY NAME and have turned christendom into a business .
Not gonna bode well on the day of the LORD .

 

[Matthias]

“(ii) In Caesarea Philippi the ancient gods of Greece also had their dwelling place. On the hillside there was a grotto or cave with a fountain of waters within it which was said to have been the birthplace of Pan, the god of nature. To this day the inscription ‘To Pan and the Nymphs’ can be traced in the stone of the grotto. So closely associated was this place with the worship of Pan that its ancient name was Panias, which still survives in the name Banias which is the modern name for the area. The hill, the grotto and the fountain of waters were called Paneion, which means the shrine of Pan. Even to this day the atmosphere of the old Greek gods broods over the place, so that the modern traveller H.V. Morton speaks of the ‘eerie grotto’. Sir George Adam Smith describes the place: ‘You come to the edge of a deep gorge through which there roars a headlong stream, half stifled by bush. An old Roman bridge takes you over, and then through a tangle of trees, brushwood and fern you break into sight of a high cliff of limestone, reddened by the water that oozes over its face from the iron soil above. In the cliff is a cavern … The place is a very sanctuary of waters, and from time immemorial men have drawn near it to worship. As you stand within the charm of it … you understand why the early Semites adored the Baalim of the subterranean waters even before they raised their gods to heaven, and thanked them for the rain.’ Around Caesarea Philippi there gathered the mystery of the old Greek gods of nature, who were still served and worshipped when Jesus and his disciples came there.”

(William Barclay, The Mind of Jesus, p. 168)

 

[Matthias]

“(iii) Still further, it was within this cavern that the River Jordan was said to have its source and origin. Josephus describes it: ‘There is a very fine cave in a mountain, under which there is a great cavity in the earth; and the cavern is abrupt, and prodigously deep, and full of still water. Over it hangs a vast mountain, and under the cavern arise the springs of the River Jordan.’ Much of the history of Israel centered around the Jordan and the Jordan valley, and, therefore, Caesarea Philippi was compassed about with memories of the great things which God had done for his people Israel.”

(William Barclay, The Mind of Jesus, pp. 168-169)

 

[jaybird]

acts 12 16
you have Peter leaving, on his way out he says “Tell these things to James and to the brothers.” of all the brothers only one is mentioned by name.
Gal 2 when Peter does something controversial its "men of James" that come to see him.
combined with James giving final judgment which i already mentioned, its basic common sense to see James had a higher level of authority, and IMO a much greater argument than Peter being called "rock" which has to be "interpreted" to mean leader and if your using interpretations it could mean all kind of things.

 

[JohnDB]

“(ii) In Caesarea Philippi the ancient gods of Greece also had their dwelling place. On the hillside there was a grotto or cave with a fountain of waters within it which was said to have been the birthplace of Pan, the god of nature. To this day the inscription ‘To Pan and the Nymphs’ can be traced in the stone of the grotto. So closely associated was this place with the worship of Pan that its ancient name was Panias, which still survives in the name Banias which is the modern name for the area. The hill, the grotto and the fountain of waters were called Paneion, which means the shrine of Pan. Even to this day the atmosphere of the old Greek gods broods over the place, so that the modern traveller H.V. Morton speaks of the ‘eerie grotto’. Sir George Adam Smith describes the place: ‘You come to the edge of a deep gorge through which there roars a headlong stream, half stifled by bush. An old Roman bridge takes you over, and then through a tangle of trees, brushwood and fern you break into sight of a high cliff of limestone, reddened by the water that oozes over its face from the iron soil above. In the cliff is a cavern … The place is a very sanctuary of waters, and from time immemorial men have drawn near it to worship. As you stand within the charm of it … you understand why the early Semites adored the Baalim of the subterranean waters even before they raised their gods to heaven, and thanked them for the rain.’ Around Caesarea Philippi there gathered the mystery of the old Greek gods of nature, who were still served and worshipped when Jesus and his disciples came there.”

(William Barclay, The Mind of Jesus, p. 168)

I've seen the place....its on a tour if you want to see it or you can just take a cab. (We took a taxi)

They did build a church there a long time ago....its in ruins today. Still, a nice couple hours.

Other fun fact....
Pan had a HUGE nose....bulging eyes too with a pointy chin. Kinda ugly imho. But I guess if you were ugly like Pan you had a chance at "family resemblance " so you too could get rich. However, most likely the only thing you got from the place was an STD.

Been more archeology since Barclay.....Roman's built a little shrine at EVERY spring....not just at Cesarea....part of the Hellenisation process.

 

[JohnDB]

My church is desperately wanting to take a tour and want me to somewhat lead it....

I'm no tour guide....but whatever. The current fighting is giving me a stay of execution. (Not a fan of public speaking)
But they cant fight forever....so we'll see how long this reprieve lasts.