Question for Premils (Amils welcome to answer): How many times are the dead judged?

[Bruce-Leiter]

Where is it required to put @ when communicating with someone?
Are you saying Full Preterism is not heresy?

First, @WPM, I don't know where it's required, but a forum member told me about it, when I wasn't doing it, and I thought that I would pass that insight on to you. I find it handy, because I get several emails from the Forum about people's responses. When I click on the link, it takes me to that very response.
Second, please refresh my memory about Full Preterism and what they say about the end time. The way you have talked about it, I too disagree with it, but I'm not sure whether I would slap the label of "heresy" on it. If they don't believe in the Trinity, the divine and human natures of Jesus, his blood sacrifice on the cross for our redemption, or his bodily resurrection to give us his powerful new life, then I would call them a heresy like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses. The end time events are a different set of beliefs about the meaning of prophecy, which aren't central to the Christian faith. But as you say, if they actually believe that Jesus will never come back to complete his salvation with our perfection, then it would qualify as a heresy.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I do understand that belief but it’s not something I agree with. The new heavenly body is built and waiting for us to enter into it.

@IndianaRob, I'm surprised that you didn't try to deal with the fact that Jesus refers to our bodily resurrection in the previous verses, which tell us his meaning in 2 Corinthians 5 as a result.

 

[IndianaRob]

@IndianaRob, I'm surprised that you didn't try to deal with the fact that Jesus refers to our bodily resurrection in the previous verses, which tell us his meaning in 2 Corinthians 5 as a result.

That verse is actually the verse that proves that our heavenly homes (bodies) are already available in heaven for us just a as soon as we die.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

If we are already in possession of the heavenly bodies and they are waiting on us to get there, why wouldn’t we put them on?

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I agree with you, I think most of us would agree that the dead believers are clothed in white robes and those robes were made possible by the work Christ did on the cross.

If there is still one final judgment then that final judgment wouldn’t include the white robe wearing believers, right? I mean I’ve never heard anyone argue that a person can have their white robe stripped off of them at a final judgment.

The final judgment will include all humans, including believers. The difference will be in that public setting, God will declare believers, who will have their resurrection bodies after being raised from the dead, "not guilty"; but unbelievers will sadly be declared "guilty" because of their lifelong active or passive rebellion. However, Jesus has transferred his "not guilty" verdict to us (called justification) and he took on himself our "guilty" verdict by dying on the cross. No true believers will have their "white robes" of righteousness taken from them, because Jesus transferred the "robes" to them.

 

[WPM]

First, @WPM, I don't know where it's required, but a forum member told me about it, when I wasn't doing it, and I thought that I would pass that insight on to you. I find it handy, because I get several emails from the Forum about people's responses. When I click on the link, it takes me to that very response.
Second, please refresh my memory about Full Preterism and what they say about the end time. The way you have talked about it, I too disagree with it, but I'm not sure whether I would slap the label of "heresy" on it. If they don't believe in the Trinity, the divine and human natures of Jesus, his blood sacrifice on the cross for our redemption, or his bodily resurrection to give us his powerful new life, then I would call them a heresy like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses. The end time events are a different set of beliefs about the meaning of prophecy, which aren't central to the Christian faith. But as you say, if they actually believe that Jesus will never come back to complete his salvation with our perfection, then it would qualify as a heresy.

It doesn't matter what we deem heresy. It matters what Scripture deems heresy. Most orthodox believers consider the denial of the future physical return of Christ as heresy, including the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked and the judgment of both.

1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[grafted branch]

We who will have been made perfect in our resurrection bodies will be judged after the second coming and as believers will be declared "not guilty" in that judgment, even though our sins will be exposed in that judgment. Sadly, unbelievers will have the "guilty" verdict. Look at Matthew 25:31-34 and Revelation 20:11-12 for the same final judgment, which happens, I believe, after the symbolic 1,000 years, which is a complete number representing the present age and all its tribulation, which intensifies before Jesus' second coming:

Ok, thanks for your thoughts on that. It looks like you’re saying not everything we do in the body gets judged.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.

An interesting thing about Revelation 20:11 is that it describes what someone traveling faster than the speed of light would observe, earth and sky fleeing away and no place found for them. That supports the idea that the GWT doesn’t take place at any one single point in time.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

That verse is actually the verse that proves that our heavenly homes (bodies) are already available in heaven for us just a as soon as we die.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

If we are already in possession of the heavenly bodies and they are waiting on us to get there, why wouldn’t we put them on?

@IndianaRob, do you deny that Jesus will visibly come again to judge the living and the dead on the clouds of heaven, as the Bible clearly says? Someone on the forum told me that you are a Full Preterist and that, therefore, you don't believe in Jesus' visible second coming. I thought I'd ask you.

 

[IndianaRob]

It doesn't matter what we deem heresy. It matters what Scripture deems heresy. Most orthodox believers consider the denial of the future physical return of Christ as heresy, including the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked and the judgment of both.

1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Your error is the same error as Humenaus and Philetus. They saw the dead bodies rise with Christ and thought the resurrection was over. Because they thought the resurrection involved raising dead earthly bodies just like you do.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

It doesn't matter what we deem heresy. It matters what Scripture deems heresy. Most orthodox believers consider the denial of the future physical return of Christ as heresy, including the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked and the judgment of both.

1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Okay, @WPM, I have asked IndianaRob what he believes about the end time events, and I'll see what he says. That last verse is very convincing.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Your error is the same error as Humenaus and Philetus. They saw the dead bodies rise with Christ and thought the resurrection was over. Because they thought the resurrection involved raising dead earthly bodies just like you do.

Mat 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

@IndianaRob, these resurrections are just like others that Jesus raised from the dead like Jairus' daughter, the widow of Nain's son, and Lazarus. They all died again, or they would be alive today.

The final resurrection when Jesus will return will be permanent, as Paul says in revealing our spiritual bodies, that is, filled and directed by the Holy Spirit, the way Paul uses the word "spiritual":

1Cor 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Cor 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Coe 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.

Notice that his language in comparing our present bodies to seeds and our resurrection bodies with a resulting plant says that our resurrection bodies will be these bodies that will be perfected and glorified. Jesus showed the perfection of our future bodies in revealing himself to the disciples after his bodily resurrection. Ours will be perfect too.

Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

 

[grafted branch]

Jesus showed the perfection of our future bodies in revealing himself to the disciples after his bodily resurrection. Ours will be perfect too.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.



If our bodies will be perfect why will the leaves be needed for healing?

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.



If our bodies will be perfect why will the leaves be needed for healing?

@grafted branch, in the context, God the Father with Jesus, the Lamb, occupy the new Jerusalem; lifelong rebels are excluded from the city; and the nations have to be believers who are not kept out of the city. Notice that the verb "were" is in the past tense. It had already happened in the symbolism of actual spiritual events. Always check the context for the meaning of a verse, in this case, about who the nations are in Revelation 21:24-27. Remember that the chapter divisions were added much later and are not inspired.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.
Rev 21:26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
Rev 22:2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.

 

[IndianaRob]

Mat 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

@IndianaRob, these resurrections are just like others that Jesus raised from the dead like Jairus' daughter, the widow of Nain's son, and Lazarus. They all died again, or they would be alive today.

The final resurrection when Jesus will return will be permanent, as Paul says in revealing our spiritual bodies, that is, filled and directed by the Holy Spirit, the way Paul uses the word "spiritual":

1Cor 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Cor 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Coe 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.

Notice that his language in comparing our present bodies to seeds and our resurrection bodies with a resulting plant says that our resurrection bodies will be these bodies that will be perfected and glorified. Jesus showed the perfection of our future bodies in revealing himself to the disciples after his bodily resurrection. Ours will be perfect too.

Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

You’re definitely in the right area to understand the resurrection.

Let’s look at Paul’s seed analogy. A seed carries life inside of it (this is analogous to our soul). That life is enclosed, wrapped up in the body of the seed (this is analogous to our earthly body). But when the seed body falls into the ground and dies, the life that was held inside is released. And that life does not stay formless — it is given a new body, a body far greater and more glorious than the seed that went into the ground.

Notice that the old seed body is not transformed into the glorious new body, it rots in the ground and is finished.

The soul now is given a new glorious body totally unrelated and unconnected with the old seed body.

 

[grafted branch]

@grafted branch, in the context, God the Father with Jesus, the Lamb, occupy the new Jerusalem; lifelong rebels are excluded from the city; and the nations have to be believers who are not kept out of the city. Notice that the verb "were" is in the past tense. It had already happened in the symbolism of actual spiritual events. Always check the context for the meaning of a verse, in this case, about who the nations are in Revelation 21:24-27. Remember that the chapter divisions were added much later and are not inspired.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.
Rev 21:26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
Rev 22:2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.

Ok, well Revelation 22:2 is also seen in Ezekiel 47:12.

Ezekiel 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Would you say Ezekiel 47:12 is a current reality while Revelation 22:2 only takes place in the future?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is maybe a way to look at it, and that it seems to maybe support Amil not Premil unless you can think of a way it could support Premil instead. I seriously don't care which view is actually Biblical, whether it be Premil or Amil. The issue is this. In my mind, if Amil is Biblical I then can not make sense out of numerous passages in both the OT and NT. That's one reason I keep sticking with Premil. Not because I'm anti-Amil, it's just that I can't make sense out of numerous passages if Amil is the correct position. That aside.

This verse right here might be the key in determining how many judgments there are. Do you have any thoughts on this verse?

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

I somewhat do. For example. I tend to take this to ultimately mean, that on judgment day everyone will then know everything about everyone. That only makes sense if everyone is present at the same time, both the saved and the lost, and that everything is being revealed about what both the saved and the lost did during their lifetime, every deed, every thought.

Suppose, for example, a spouse cheated on a spouse, numerous times even, but this spouse never found out before they died. Suppose in the end the spouse that cheated gets saved, except by that time the other spouse already died and was in a lost state when they died. Unless both spouses are present during the revealing of all things, how is the lost spouse supposed to find out what the other spouse did during their marriage if there is more than one judgment, one involving the saved, one involving the lost later on?

Per this scenario it would be during the judging of the saved when it is being revealed what this spouse did during their marriage prior to being saved. The other spouse is still dead, hasn't even been resurrected yet. The point being, it makes no sense to reveal every hidden thing about everyone unless all of the parties involved are all present at the time. Is this alone enough to debunk Premil? Maybe so, I'm not sure.

Something else this proves about everyone, is this, no exceptions. That just because one ends up saved that hardly means any bad deeds they did before and after being saved, that these things are not ever brought up again. Per the scenario above, unless these things are brought to light, that one spouse cheated on the other spouse numerous times, we then have to assume Jesus lied when He said what He said in Luke 12:2 if the other spouse never finds out that their spouse cheated on them numerous times before that spouse was saved, and that the lost spouse died before the other spouse was saved.

The point is, per this scenario above, the fact it is revealed that one spouse cheated on another spouse prior to that spouse being saved, undeniably proves that being saved does not mean any bad deeds a person did prior to being saved is never brought up again. I'm not suggesting that they lose their salvation at this point. I'm only saying that it is impossible that everything can be revealed about everyone if some of the things the saved did prior to being saved are never brought up again. That does not equal what Jesus said in Luke 12:2.

It seems that Matthew 25:31-46 is quite clear that the saved and lost will be judged at the same time, but if it takes Luke 12:2 for you to figure that out, so be it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your error is the same error as Humenaus and Philetus. They saw the dead bodies rise with Christ and thought the resurrection was over. Because they thought the resurrection involved raising dead earthly bodies just like you do.

The resurrection of those who belong to Christ will be the same type of resurrection as Christ had (1 Corinthians 15:22-23). So, are you saying you think that Christ's resurrection didn't involve His dead earthly body?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.



If our bodies will be perfect why will the leaves be needed for healing?

That isn't talking about healing illnesses. You are missing the symbolism there. Why do you try to interpret the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible so literally? That's symbolically referring to the continued nourishment given by God to His people so that they maintain perfect health for eternity in the eternal new heavens and new earth. That verse isn't talking about a literal street, a literal river, a literal tree of life or literal fruits. It's all symbolism. Think about what fruits do for you in a literal way. Do you eat fruit to heal your body? No, you eat it to nourish your body and keep it healthy.

 

[grafted branch]

It's all symbolism. Think about what fruits do for you in a literal way. Do you eat fruit to heal your body? No, you eat it to nourish your body and keep it healthy.

Currently people do use leaves for healing. Aloe Vera is used for burns and skin conditions, peppermint leaves are used for digestive issues, and countless other leaves are made into tea and consumed for all kinds of health reasons.

Maybe you need to reconsider your view so it matches what the Bible says, “the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

You’re definitely in the right area to understand the resurrection.

Let’s look at Paul’s seed analogy. A seed carries life inside of it (this is analogous to our soul). That life is enclosed, wrapped up in the body of the seed (this is analogous to our earthly body). But when the seed body falls into the ground and dies, the life that was held inside is released. And that life does not stay formless — it is given a new body, a body far greater and more glorious than the seed that went into the ground.

Notice that the old seed body is not transformed into the glorious new body, it rots in the ground and is finished.

The soul now is given a new glorious body totally unrelated and unconnected with the old seed body.

@IndianaRob, you're adding meaning the analogy that Paul doesn't add. His point is that the seed is the perishable, temporary, earthy body and that it ends up being an imperishable, eternal, spiritual (Spirit-endowed) body. His illustration shows that these imperfect bodies will become our perfect, resurrection bodies. Our souls go to heaven when we die and come back with Jesus; our bodies, thus, are dead but are given the life of our eternal soul and will live forever. That's what Paul says, "

Ok, well Revelation 22:2 is also seen in Ezekiel 47:12.

Ezekiel 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Would you say Ezekiel 47:12 is a current reality while Revelation 22:2 only takes place in the future?

No, @grafted branch, many symbolic pictures in Revelation expand on those Old Testament Hebrew and poetic pictures. Look at the whole Ezekiel 47 chapter and notice the future tenses and the lush imagery that Palestine has never had consistently. Notice the verses that describe the abundance of water, a symbolic picture of God's many blessings on the future new earth. Revelation 22 merely provides more details of that figurative, future picture, when God will be on his throne on the new earth. Notice, again, Paul's use of "it," referring to our human body and its resurrection:

1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

God can, without any effort, re-assemble our earthly bodies and transform them into spiritual bodies with his unlimited, creative power, even from scattered molecules. Jesus showed his resurrection body with his scars to the disciples but could go through walls but hid his glory. Why should we be any different but with God's glory shining from us?

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

That isn't talking about healing illnesses. You are missing the symbolism there. Why do you try to interpret the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible so literally? That's symbolically referring to the continued nourishment given by God to His people so that they maintain perfect health for eternity in the eternal new heavens and new earth. That verse isn't talking about a literal street, a literal river, a literal tree of life or literal fruits. It's all symbolism. Think about what fruits do for you in a literal way. Do you eat fruit to heal your body? No, you eat it to nourish your body and keep it healthy.

I agree with you here, @Spiritual Israelite, that Revelation is very symbolic, because it fits into many writings of that time that are apocalyptic literature, though it is a series of inspired, figurative visions that point to spiritual reality about the time between Jesus' first and second comings. It reveals more and more about Jesus' second comings at the end of each vision, as Revelation 20-22 does at its end.