IS THE RAPTURE FOUND IN THE OLD TESTAMENT?

[Doug]

[1Corinthians 15:54-55 KJV] 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

The written saying Paul was referencing is found in Isaiah below.

[Isaiah 25:8 KJV] 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].

1 Corinthians 15:54-55 above is speaking of the rapture.

The rapture was said to be a mystery, as seen below.

[1Corinthians 15:51 KJV] 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Some say that this mystery of the rapture could be found in the prophets of the old testament.

Paul was not saying that Isaiah 25:8 was a hidden mystery that needed to be revealed by God, and Paul was enabled to reveal it here in 1 Corinthians..

If the rapture is indeed a mystery, then it could not be found in Isaiah.

Paul was not revealing this, or any other mystery written in the prophets. Paul was not saying that Isaiah 25:8 would be fulfilled by the rapture. Isiah 25:8 was fulfilled by the resurrection of Christ. Paul was just saying Isiah 25:8 would be fully realized by our rapture.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Some say that this mystery of the rapture could be found in the prophets of the old testament.

The Old Testament mentions the righteous dead being bodily resurrected out of their graves.

•Isaiah 26:19 - "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

•Job 14:13-15 - "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." This "call" was the same "voice of the Son of God" in John 5:25-29 which Christ said was going to wake the dead. And the "change" in Job is the same as that "change" for the mortal remains of all the dead saints mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

The Old Testament mentions the gathering of the resurrected saints together at Christ's coming.

•Genesis 49:10 - "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet UNTIL Shiloh come, and to Him shall the gathering of the people be." Jacob's prophecy of "Shiloh" is about Christ Jesus, telling his sons that Judah would maintain the right to rule and govern among the 12 tribes UNTIL Christ Jesus came and gathered His people, the resurrected saints. These tribal distinctions disappeared with the destruction of the temple in AD 70, with Judah exercising that God-given right of dominance over the other tribes up to that point (as in Zechariah 12:4-7). This "gathering of the people" predicted by Jacob in Genesis 49:10 is the same as the 2 Thess. 2 "our gathering together unto Him".

Joseph knew very well what this Genesis 49:10 prediction of his father meant, which is why he later requested in faith that his bones be taken back to Hebron and buried with his father in the cave of Machpelah. He wanted to be in the same location as his father when the gathering together of the people of God in a resurrection would occur.

But the Old Testament never mentions any such thing as the living believers who had never died expecting to be translated so that they did not have to pass through the physical death process. This is the typical misunderstanding of what the rapture includes, and it is NOT how the Scriptures all describe the believers being gathered together and taken to heaven with Christ.

 

[ElieG12]

The kingdom of heaven was only preached at the time of Jesus and later, so the hope of living in heaven did not belong to the Israelites before Jesus Christ. All of them will be resurrected to live on earth, while the resurrection to live in heaven belongs to certain chosen Christians, beginning with Jesus, his faithful apostles, and those gathered in Jerusalem at Pentecost, who received the holy spirit directly from heaven.

 

[ScottA]

[1Corinthians 15:54-55 KJV] 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

The written saying Paul was referencing is found in Isaiah below.

[Isaiah 25:8 KJV] 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].

1 Corinthians 15:54-55 above is speaking of the rapture.

The rapture was said to be a mystery, as seen below.

[1Corinthians 15:51 KJV] 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Some say that this mystery of the rapture could be found in the prophets of the old testament.

Paul was not saying that Isaiah 25:8 was a hidden mystery that needed to be revealed by God, and Paul was enabled to reveal it here in 1 Corinthians..

If the rapture is indeed a mystery, then it could not be found in Isaiah.

Paul was not revealing this, or any other mystery written in the prophets. Paul was not saying that Isaiah 25:8 would be fulfilled by the rapture. Isiah 25:8 was fulfilled by the resurrection of Christ. Paul was just saying Isiah 25:8 would be fully realized by our rapture.

It is vaughly eluded to. For example:

"They shall mount up like rising smoke" (Isaiah 9:18). Note the context. Which refers to Israel as "the dead in Christ" rising up with Him--Jesus "the Last"--in His resurrection.

 

[Doug]

The Old Testament mentions the righteous dead being bodily resurrected out of their graves.

•Isaiah 26:19 - "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

•Job 14:13-15 - "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." This "call" was the same "voice of the Son of God" in John 5:25-29 which Christ said was going to wake the dead. And the "change" in Job is the same as that "change" for the mortal remains of all the dead saints mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

The Old Testament mentions the gathering of the resurrected saints together at Christ's coming.

•Genesis 49:10 - "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet UNTIL Shiloh come, and to Him shall the gathering of the people be." Jacob's prophecy of "Shiloh" is about Christ Jesus, telling his sons that Judah would maintain the right to rule and govern among the 12 tribes UNTIL Christ Jesus came and gathered His people, the resurrected saints. These tribal distinctions disappeared with the destruction of the temple in AD 70, with Judah exercising that God-given right of dominance over the other tribes up to that point (as in Zechariah 12:4-7). This "gathering of the people" predicted by Jacob in Genesis 49:10 is the same as the 2 Thess. 2 "our gathering together unto Him".

Joseph knew very well what this Genesis 49:10 prediction of his father meant, which is why he later requested in faith that his bones be taken back to Hebron and buried with his father in the cave of Machpelah. He wanted to be in the same location as his father when the gathering together of the people of God in a resurrection would occur.

But the Old Testament never mentions any such thing as the living believers who had never died expecting to be translated so that they did not have to pass through the physical death process. This is the typical misunderstanding of what the rapture includes, and it is NOT how the Scriptures all describe the believers being gathered together and taken to heaven with Christ.

I am not clear on what you are saying......please clarify

What are you saying in your last paragraph

Are you saying the OT passages you gave also reveal the rapture?

 

[Doug]

It is vaughly eluded to. For example:

"They shall mount up like rising smoke" (Isaiah 9:18). Note the context. Which refers to Israel as "the dead in Christ" rising up with Him--Jesus "the Last"--in His resurrection.

I dont think so

 

[ScottA]

I dont think so

God has revealed the end from the beginning--of course it's there. It's in Genesis 1. I was just helping you see through the glass when dim.

 

[Doug]

God has revealed the end from the beginning--of course it's there. It's in Genesis 1. I was just helping you see through the glass when dim.

Thanks

 

[3 Resurrections]

am not clear on what you are saying......please clarify

What are you saying in your last paragraph

Are you saying the OT passages you gave also reveal the rapture?

All those Scriptures I gave, (and some I did not include, such as the resurrection prophesied by Daniel 12:1-2) were referring to the AD 70 "rapture" to heaven of ONLY the resurrected believers. Daniel 12:11-13 pinpoints the exact timing and date of that AD 70 resurrection event in which Daniel himself was promised he would participate. No living believers who had not yet died were to be taken off the planet in that 1 Thess. 4 "rapture" of the resurrected saints. That resurrection would only include those saints who had died up until that time in AD 70.

The common misunderstanding of what Paul's imminent "rapture" event would entail mistakenly thinks that the living believers would also be included (those who had not physically died yet). These living believers were NOT going to be "translated" or caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Scripture never teaches that anywhere. Any believers who were living at Christ's AD 70 second coming have been waiting in the grave to participate along with us in the next bodily resurrection event in our distant future at Christ's third coming.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

[1Corinthians 15:54-55 KJV] 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

The written saying Paul was referencing is found in Isaiah below.

[Isaiah 25:8 KJV] 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].

1 Corinthians 15:54-55 above is speaking of the rapture.

The rapture was said to be a mystery, as seen below.

[1Corinthians 15:51 KJV] 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Some say that this mystery of the rapture could be found in the prophets of the old testament.

Paul was not saying that Isaiah 25:8 was a hidden mystery that needed to be revealed by God, and Paul was enabled to reveal it here in 1 Corinthians..

If the rapture is indeed a mystery, then it could not be found in Isaiah.

Paul was not revealing this, or any other mystery written in the prophets. Paul was not saying that Isaiah 25:8 would be fulfilled by the rapture. Isiah 25:8 was fulfilled by the resurrection of Christ. Paul was just saying Isiah 25:8 would be fully realized by our rapture.

There were two who were raptured from earth in the OT without tasting death. Enoch and Elijah!

 

[3 Resurrections]

Enoch was translated so that he didn't die physically, but Elijah died just as any other man is appointed to do. Neither man ascended to heaven to be in God's presence in the OT. Elijah was only taken by the whirlwind to another place on earth, from which place almost ten years later he wrote that 2 Chron. 21:12 letter to King Jehoram, listing the king's sins, and predicting the manner of his approaching death.

As for Enoch, he remained on earth in that translated body form, waiting for Christ's second coming, when he was taken with all the glorified, resurrected saints to heaven with the returning Christ in AD 70. No man was allowed access to heaven's temple until that point (per Rev. 15:8, after all the 7 plagues had been poured out).

 

[Doug]

Enoch was translated so that he didn't die physically, but Elijah died just as any other man is appointed to do. Neither man ascended to heaven to be in God's presence in the OT. Elijah was only taken by the whirlwind to another place on earth, from which place almost ten years later he wrote that 2 Chron. 21:12 letter to King Jehoram, listing the king's sins, and predicting the manner of his approaching death.

As for Enoch, he remained on earth in that translated body form, waiting for Christ's second coming, when he was taken with all the glorified, resurrected saints to heaven with the returning Christ in AD 70. No man was allowed access to heaven's temple until that point (per Rev. 15:8, after all the 7 plagues had been poured out).

If Christ returned in 70AD then he should be ruling on earth

 

[3 Resurrections]

If Christ returned in 70AD then he should be ruling on earth

Christ does not have to be bodily ON the earth to be ruling OVER the earth. He presently "rules in the midst of His enemies", as God said He would do in Psalms 110:2. All believers who have bowed the knee to Christ our Savior and Lord are evidence that Christ's kingdom rule is ongoing on this earth at present.

You should check Revelation 12:5 (YLT) as to when Christ was going to rule the nations. This is in the context of the women clothed with the sun, who brought forth a man child. "And she brought forth a male child, who is ABOUT TO rule all the nations with rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne," As of John's perspective on the timeline, the ascended Christ was then ABOUT TO rule all the nations..

The steady incremental increase of the "rock" kingdom has been growing without pause since Christ struck Daniel's statue in AD 70 and broke the entire structure into dust which has blown away on the wind long ago. You and I with the indwelling Spirit have our part to play as "living stones' in filling the whole habitable world with the effects of that growing "rock" kingdom, which will never end.

 

[Doug]

Christ does not have to be bodily ON the earth to be ruling OVER the earth.

If Christ is in his kingdom there are things that will be seen on earth. Here are some

[Isa 2:4 KJV] 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Dont see this do we?

[Isa 11:6-7 KJV] 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Dont see this do we?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Enoch was translated so that he didn't die physically, but Elijah died just as any other man is appointed to do. Neither man ascended to heaven to be in God's presence in the OT. Elijah was only taken by the whirlwind to another place on earth, from which place almost ten years later he wrote that 2 Chron. 21:12 letter to King Jehoram, listing the king's sins, and predicting the manner of his approaching death.

As for Enoch, he remained on earth in that translated body form, waiting for Christ's second coming, when he was taken with all the glorified, resurrected saints to heaven with the returning Christ in AD 70. No man was allowed access to heaven's temple until that point (per Rev. 15:8, after all the 7 plagues had been poured out).

Lots of suppositions here.

Elijah was taken to heaven as it says in Scripture. This going somewhere else on earth is conjecture without evidence.

As for Enoch-

Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

All else is guess work on your part. And who said He had to enrter the temple in heaven. There is plenty of other area in heaven besides the temple.

 

[3 Resurrections]

If Christ is in his kingdom there are things that will be seen on earth. Here are some

[Isa 2:4 KJV] 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Dont see this do we?

[Isa 11:6-7 KJV] 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Dont see this do we?

You should look a little more carefully at the context of these prophecies. These conditions found in Isiah 11:6-7 would be taking place "In that day that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left from Assyrian, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea..." (Is. 11:11). This Isaiah 11:6-7 prophecy predicted the conditions in the post-exilic return of the Israelites to their own land, similar to the first time that God's people came up out of the land of Egypt. (Is. 11:16).

The comparison of the unclean, predatory animals to the clean, domesticated animals was picturing the former idol-worshipping Israelites of the northern tribes dwelling without hostility with the tribe of Judah in the post-exilic return.

As for Isaiah 2:4, this was a prophecy for Judah and Jerusalem - the tribe faithful to the house of David, which eventually apostatized as well as the northern tribes. In the post-exilic return, the former animosity between Judah and the other tribes of Jacob would be erased. That is what the swords and spears being beaten into peaceful farm implements means. It is not speaking of no more modern-day world wars. It is speaking of no more wars between Judah and the 10 northern tribes in the post-exilic return.

 

[David in NJ]

[1Corinthians 15:54-55 KJV] 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

The written saying Paul was referencing is found in Isaiah below.

[Isaiah 25:8 KJV] 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].

1 Corinthians 15:54-55 above is speaking of the rapture.

The rapture was said to be a mystery, as seen below.

[1Corinthians 15:51 KJV] 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Some say that this mystery of the rapture could be found in the prophets of the old testament.

Paul was not saying that Isaiah 25:8 was a hidden mystery that needed to be revealed by God, and Paul was enabled to reveal it here in 1 Corinthians..

If the rapture is indeed a mystery, then it could not be found in Isaiah.

Paul was not revealing this, or any other mystery written in the prophets. Paul was not saying that Isaiah 25:8 would be fulfilled by the rapture. Isiah 25:8 was fulfilled by the resurrection of Christ. Paul was just saying Isiah 25:8 would be fully realized by our rapture.

The Rapture is in the OT and it only occurs AFTER great tribulation, thusly the LORD confirmed this in Matthew chapter 24

 

[3 Resurrections]

Lots of suppositions here.

Elijah was taken to heaven as it says in Scripture. This going somewhere else on earth is conjecture without evidence.

I would like to hear your explanation of how Elijah could be in heaven in God's presence and still be writing that 2 Chron 21:12 letter to King Jehoram some 10 years or so after his whirlwind transport.

There is more than one heaven. There is the atmospheric heaven of the skies surrounding our planet, the heaven of the sun, moon, and stars, and the third heaven of God's presence. Elijah was taken into the atmospheric heaven of our planet - not into God's presence. That honor was reserved for the resurrected ascending Christ to do FIRST before anyone else, to give Him the pre-eminence.

Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Scripture does not say that God took Enoch to heaven when he was translated. And Scripture does say in John 3:13 that no man had yet ascended unto heaven at that time except for the Son of Man. That restriction applied to Enoch and Elijah also.

 

[Davy]

Paul was not revealing this, or any other mystery written in the prophets. Paul was not saying that Isaiah 25:8 would be fulfilled by the rapture. Isiah 25:8 was fulfilled by the resurrection of Christ. Paul was just saying Isiah 25:8 would be fully realized by our rapture.

Nope. Paul was... pointing to the FUTURE change to the "spiritual body" that he covered in that 1 Corinthians 15 Chapter. That event is STILL FUTURE TO US. It will ONLY occur on the day of Christ's future 2nd coming, on the "last trump", on the "day of the Lord".

Since you showed where Paul was quoting from with that idea of death swallowed up from Isaiah 25, why didn't you quote those Isaiah 25 Scriptures that reveals what that is about?? I know why, because it would PROVE your assumption above that I underlined as being wrong.

Isaiah 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

The heat in a dry place, etc., is a metaphor used elsewhere in the prophets about the burning of man's works off the surface of this earth on the "day of the Lord", the last day of this present world.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

That future "feast" is about the future Supper that Lord Jesus mentioned to His Apostles in His coming Kingdom when He returns. It's the marriage supper to represent His marriage to the new Jerusalem at His future return to earth.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

On that day of Christ's future 2nd coming, on the "last trump", all... still alive on earth shall be "changed", "at the twinkling of an eye" like Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15:53-55. That change is about the change from the flesh body of corruption to the "spiritual body" of incorruption. Those dead in Christ will be resurrected on that day, and their spiritual body will be manifested already returning with Jesus. That is what that "face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations", is about. The world to come will be one with everyone in spirit bodies, no longer in flesh bodies.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
KJV

Why will the saved speak that idea, "this is the LORD, we have waited for Him,"? Do you know about the first supernatural Messiah that is coming at the end of this world before Lord Jesus returns? If you flee to that first supernatural one working great signs and wonders, thinking he is Jesus, then it means you did NOT WAIT for our true Lord Jesus to come, but you instead fled to an imposter. Lord Jesus warned of this, Apostle Paul warned of this, and so did Apostle John.

 

[Doug]

The Rapture is in the OT and it only occurs AFTER great tribulation, thusly the LORD confirmed this in Matthew chapter 24

Matthew 24 is not about the rapture. It's about the return of the Lord at the end of the tribulation when he will separate the wicked unto judgement and the believers will be given the kingdom on earth