The Coming of Christ and the Kingdoms — a Clear Chronology of events.

[LoveYeshua]

The Coming of Christ and the Kingdoms — a Clear Chronology using Jesus’ words first, then His original apostles, then the Prophets​

Below is a simple, Bible-only timeline. I begin with Jesus’ words, then add John, Peter, James, and Acts, and then the Prophets. All verses are NKJV references in parentheses.

---

The Present Age: the Kingdom grows while we wait for the end​

Jesus said the kingdom starts small and grows in this world like a mustard seed that becomes a tree and like leaven working through flour (Matthew 13:31–33). He also said there would be good seed and weeds together until the harvest at “the end of the age,” when angels separate the wicked from the just (Matthew 13:24–30, 36–43).
In this age there are wars, disasters, persecution, and many false christs and false prophets (Matthew 24:4–14; Mark 13:5–13; Luke 21:8–19). The gospel is preached in all the world and then the end will come (Matthew 24:14).

​

---

2) The Final Birth Pains and the Great Tribulation​

Before Jesus returns, He said there will be a unique time of “great tribulation” unlike anything before or after (Matthew 24:21–22; Mark 13:19–20). He pointed us to “the abomination of desolation” spoken by Daniel as a key sign (Matthew 24:15; cf. Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11).
There will be intense deception and powerful signs to mislead, if possible, even the elect (Matthew 24:23–26). Immediately after that tribulation, the sun and moon will be darkened, stars will fall, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken (Matthew 24:29; Joel 2:30–31; Isaiah 13:10; 34:4).

---

3) The Visible Second Coming of the Son of Man​

Then the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven; all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory (Matthew 24:30; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27).
He will send His angels with a great trumpet sound to gather His elect from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:31). His coming will be sudden and open, like lightning from east to west (Matthew 24:27). No one knows the day or hour—so we must watch and be ready (Matthew 24:36–44; Mark 13:32–37).

Where He comes​

Jesus ascended from the Mount of Olives and will return in like manner (Acts 1:9–12). Zechariah adds that the Mount of Olives will split in two when the LORD comes and fights for Jerusalem, and living waters will flow from the city (Zechariah 14:3–8, 16–19).

His judgment as He sits on His throne​

When the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, He will sit on the throne of His glory and gather all nations before Him for judgment (Matthew 25:31–32). He separates like a shepherd separates sheep and goats (Matthew 25:33–46).

---

4) The First Resurrection and Christ’s Reign (the “thousand years”)​

John saw Jesus return in glory to judge and make war (Revelation 19:11–16), defeat the beast and the false prophet (Revelation 19:19–21), and then Satan bound so that he cannot deceive the nations for a thousand years (Revelation 20:1–3).
John also saw thrones and those who were faithful to Jesus live and reign with Christ for a thousand years—this is called “the first resurrection”; “Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection” (Revelation 20:4–6).

What this reign looks like in the Prophets​

The Prophets describe a time of the LORD’s rule over the earth, with peace and justice:

• The LORD will judge between nations; swords become plowshares; people learn war no more (Isaiah 2:2–4; Micah 4:1–4).
• The earth is filled with the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea; creation is at peace under the Root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1–10).
• Long lives and renewed joy in Jerusalem are pictured (Isaiah 65:18–25).
• All nations will go up year by year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and keep the Feast of Tabernacles; those who refuse have no rain (Zechariah 14:16–19).
• The kingdom given to the Son of Man is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away; and the saints receive the kingdom (Daniel 7:13–14, 18, 27).

These promises match Jesus’ words that the apostles will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:29–30), and that He will drink the cup new with His disciples “in My Father’s kingdom” (Matthew 26:29).

---

5) Satan’s Release, the Final Rebellion, and God’s Fire​

After the thousand years, Satan is released for a short time. He deceives the nations again and gathers them to surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours them. Then the devil is cast into the lake of fire forever (Revelation 20:7–10).

---

6) The Great White Throne and the Second Resurrection​

Then comes the great white throne. Heaven and earth flee away before God’s face (Revelation 20:11). The dead, small and great, stand before God. The books are opened, and another book is opened, which is the Book of Life. The dead are judged according to their works by the things written in the books (Revelation 20:12–13). Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire—this is the second death. Anyone not found written in the Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14–15).
Jesus had already taught that there will be a resurrection of life and a resurrection of condemnation (John 5:28–29).

---

7) The New Heavens and New Earth: the Eternal Kingdom​

John then saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away (Revelation 21:1). He saw the New Jerusalem, the holy city, coming down out of heaven from God (Revelation 21:2).
A loud voice says, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them.” No more death, sorrow, crying, or pain (Revelation 21:3–4). The overcomer inherits all things, and God will be his God (Revelation 21:7). The city has the river of the water of life and the tree of life; the throne of God and of the Lamb is there; His servants shall serve Him… and they shall reign forever and ever (Revelation 22:1–5).
The Prophets also spoke of this promise: “new heavens and a new earth” (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22). Peter, an original apostle, confirms the same hope: “the day of the Lord” will bring the dissolution of the present heavens and earth, and we look for “new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells” (2 Peter 3:10–13).

---

Cont. next post.​

 

[LoveYeshua]

8) How Jesus tells us to live as we wait​

Because no one knows the day or hour, Jesus calls us to watch, pray, and be faithful (Matthew 24:36–51; Mark 13:33–37; Luke 21:34–36). He warns us to be ready like wise virgins with oil, faithful servants investing what He entrusted, and sheep who love “the least of these” (Matthew 25:1–46).
He tells us to keep His words (John 14:15, 21, 23–24), to abide in Him (John 15:4–10), and to endure to the end (Matthew 24:13). Revelation calls the saints to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 12:17; 14:12). James urges patience “until the coming of the Lord” (James 5:7–8). Jude reminds us that the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment (Jude 14–15).

---

9) Short, step-by-step summary (still Scripture-anchored)​

• This age: Kingdom grows among all nations; gospel preached; troubles and deception continue until the end (Matthew 13:31–43; 24:4–14).
• Final signs: Abomination of desolation; great tribulation; cosmic shaking (Matthew 24:15, 21–29; Daniel 12:11; Joel 2:30–31).
• Second Coming: Son of Man seen by all; angels gather the elect; He judges the nations (Matthew 24:30–31; 25:31–46; Acts 1:11; Zechariah 14:4).
• Millennial reign: Satan bound; first resurrection; saints reign with Christ (Revelation 20:1–6). Prophets describe peace and worldwide worship (Isaiah 2:2–4; 11:1–10; Zechariah 14:16–19).
• Final rebellion: Satan released and destroyed by God’s fire (Revelation 20:7–10).
• Great White Throne: Second resurrection and final judgment (Revelation 20:11–15; John 5:28–29).
• Eternal kingdom: New heavens and new earth; New Jerusalem; God dwells with His people forever (Revelation 21–22; Isaiah 65:17; 66:22; 2 Peter 3:10–13).

---

10) Final encouragement from Jesus and His apostles​

Jesus: “Surely I am coming quickly.” Our answer: “Even so, come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20).
Peter: Seeing that all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the day of God (2 Peter 3:11–13).
James: “Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (James 5:8).
John: “We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is,” so everyone who has this hope purifies himself (1 John 3:2–3).

---

About AD 70​

Jesus plainly foretold the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple stones thrown down (Matthew 24:2; Luke 21:6). He warned of armies around Jerusalem and days of great distress for that city (Luke 21:20–24). This happened in AD 70. But Jesus also said His second coming would be after specific cosmic signs and would be seen by all the tribes of the earth, like lightning across the sky (Matthew 24:27, 29–31). That did not happen in AD 70.
After He rose and ascended from the Mount of Olives, angels promised, “This same Jesus… will so come in like manner”—visible and bodily (Acts 1:9–12). Zechariah also says His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives on that day (Zechariah 14:4). This also did not happen in AD 70. So AD 70 was judgment on Jerusalem, but not the Second Coming.

 

[Scott Downey]

His judgment as He sits on His throne​

When the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, He will sit on the throne of His glory and gather all nations before Him for judgment (Matthew 25:31–32). He separates like a shepherd separates sheep and goats (Matthew 25:33–46).

​

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

This does NOT take place on this earth if that is what your thinking.
The proof is found in Rev 20 and the great white throne judgment.

What happened to the earth and heavens before this judgment?
They flee away from the face of Hm who sits on the throne, and are found no place, they are gone away.

The Great White Throne Judgment​

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is only one judgment day of the living and the dead.
I hope you don't think there are 2 great Judgement Days.

And after this judgment, what do we get from God?
New Earth, New Heavens

Revelation 21
New King James Version
All Things Made New

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[Randy Kluth]

I would agree with most of the chronology as given with a few disagreements. The Abomination of Desolation, I believe, was the Roman Army in 70 AD who destroyed the Temple and the City of Jerusalem. This Army was the "Desolator," and it was viewed by the Jews as an "Abomination" because it was an pagan army entering into the City of God.

The "Great Tribulation" was not just the fall of the Temple in 70 AD, but very much more, the entire NT experience of the Jewish People, called "the worst Jewish experience in history." It was declared in Luke to be a "Jewish Punishment." It was the worst Jewish Punishment because it lasts longer than the 70 years of Babylonian Captivity, and longer than any Jewish Punishment ever.

The nation would be reduced to a People wandering across the earth until the time set by God to restore the nation. We are seeing that "Political Salvation" start in our own day. However, it will not be accompanied by a "Spiritual Restoration" until Christ Returns.

When Jesus Returns, we often focus on Israel because when Jesus discussed these things he was still speaking largely to Israel alone, the Gentiles not yet being the beneficiaries of his Gospel. However, when Jesus Returns, I believe he is returning not just to save national Israel in the political sense, but to restore many nations for the sake of Abraham, who was the recipient of these promises. I personally believe that in the Millennium many Christian nations will come to exist with little opposition.

 

[Scott Downey]

I would agree with most of the chronology as given with a few disagreements. The Abomination of Desolation, I believe, was the Roman Army in 70 AD who destroyed the Temple and the City of Jerusalem. This Army was the "Desolator," and it was viewed by the Jews as an "Abomination" because it was an pagan army entering into the City of God.

The "Great Tribulation" was not just the fall of the Temple in 70 AD, but very much more, the entire NT experience of the Jewish People, called "the worst Jewish experience in history." It was declared in Luke to be a "Jewish Punishment." It was the worst Jewish Punishment because it lasts longer than the 70 years of Babylonian Captivity, and longer than any Jewish Punishment ever.

The nation would be reduced to a People wandering across the earth until the time set by God to restore the nation. We are seeing that "Political Salvation" start in our own day. However, it will not be accompanied by a "Spiritual Restoration" until Christ Returns.

When Jesus Returns, we often focus on Israel because when Jesus discussed these things he was still speaking largely to Israel alone, the Gentiles not yet being the beneficiaries of his Gospel. However, when Jesus Returns, I believe he is returning not just to save national Israel in the political sense, but to restore many nations for the sake of Abraham, who was the recipient of these promises. I personally believe that in the Millennium many Christian nations will come to exist with little opposition.

Ah, so you believe in two great judgment days then?
Have you considered that what the premillennial interpretation logically must believe is two not one Judgment Day?
Refer my prior post here, #3

 

[rwb]

Zechariah also says His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives on that day (Zechariah 14:4). This also did not happen in AD 70. So AD 70 was judgment on Jerusalem, but not the Second Coming.

Zechariah writes of "the day of the LORD cometh"! Zechariah did NOT write of the day the LORD would come AGAIN! All of the prophets wrote of and were awaiting the coming of the promised Messiah, i.e. "the day of the LORD" or His FIRST coming when all that is written of Him shall be fulfilled. Zechariah's day of the LORD, according to Isaiah is fulfilled with the advent of the first coming of Christ.

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 9:2 (KJV) The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

John 1:14-15 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Matthew 1:23 (KJV) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Luke 2:11 (KJV) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

We find much confirmation in the NT of the day of the LORD coming the prophets prophesied would come when Messiah, Emmanuel would come. Yet there is nothing written through the prophets of Old that speak of this same Messiah, Emmanuel, Christ Jesus our Lord coming again for a period of one thousand years. We find the exact opposite! When He came to establish the Kingdom of God in heaven with judgment and justice it would be "henceforth even forever"!

But you and others with your same doctrines are consumed with Christ returning to this earth in flesh and blood to a kingdom that shall be great for one thousand years where apparently we will find both mortal and immortal bodies of flesh dwelling together!

 

[Exegesis]

Sorry OP, I just debunked your thread...

The Great Tribulation Began in 70AD and Continues to This Very Day

Contrary to popular belief, the Great Tribulation is not something that will happen in the future. It began in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and continues to this very day. Here is the famous verse: Matthew 24:21 - "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Scott Downey]

He also said there would be good seed and weeds together until the harvest at “the end of the age,” when angels separate the wicked from the just (Matthew 13:24–30, 36–43).
In this age there are wars, disasters, persecution, and many false christs and false prophets (Matthew 24:4–14; Mark 13:5–13; Luke 21:8–19). The gospel is preached in all the world and then the end will come (Matthew 24:14).

'Then the end will come'

What end is this?
The end of this WORLD

Matthew 13 KJV
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 24 KJV

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Understand the dispensationalist teaching calls this the end of the 'age', this world continues on with a 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth, not the second earth to come after the 'end' of this world. The non dispensational view actually fits the scriptures.

 

[LoveYeshua]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

This does NOT take place on this earth if that is what your thinking.
The proof is found in Rev 20 and the great white throne judgment.

What happened to the earth and heavens before this judgment?
They flee away from the face of Hm who sits on the throne, and are found no place, they are gone away.

The Great White Throne Judgment​

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is only one judgment day of the living and the dead.
I hope you don't think there are 2 great Judgement Days.

And after this judgment, what do we get from God?
New Earth, New Heavens

Revelation 21
New King James Version
All Things Made New

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Scott, look at the sequence of events again in revelations 19 and 20 it is cleat! as I have written previously and affixed the proper verses;

9) Short, step-by-step summary (still Scripture-anchored)​

• This age: Kingdom grows among all nations; gospel preached; troubles and deception continue until the end (Matthew 13:31–43; 24:4–14).
• AD 70: Fulfilled Jesus’ warning about Jerusalem’s fall, not His visible return (Luke 21:20–24; Matthew 24:2, 27, 30).
• Final signs: Abomination of desolation; great tribulation; cosmic shaking (Matthew 24:15, 21–29; Daniel 12:11; Joel 2:30–31).
• Second Coming: Son of Man seen by all; angels gather the elect; He judges the nations (Matthew 24:30–31; 25:31–46; Acts 1:11; Zechariah 14:4).

This is what is written Scott if is not from me but from the bible texts, please believe the biblical texts.

• Millennial reign: Satan bound; first resurrection; saints reign with Christ (Revelation 20:1–6). Prophets describe peace and worldwide worship (Isaiah 2:2–4; 11:1–10; Zechariah 14:16–19).
• Final rebellion: Satan released and destroyed by God’s fire (Revelation 20:7–10).
• Great White Throne: Second resurrection and final judgment (Revelation 20:11–15; John 5:28–29).
• Eternal kingdom: New heavens and new earth; New Jerusalem; God dwells with His people forever (Revelation 21–22; Isaiah 65:17; 66:22; 2 Peter 3:10–13).

See the difference?, first judgement when Jesus returns in his Glory and Angels to restore all things and Judge the nations. Then after this millennial Kingdom, when Satan is thrown in the lake of fire forever there will be a second final judgement. it is all written clearly.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ah, so you believe in two great judgment days then?
Have you considered that what the premillennial interpretation logically must believe is two not one Judgment Day?
Refer my prior post here, #3

Yes, I see what you mean, although I have to admit I just sort of relegated the statement, "Heaven and Earth fled from Him," to a kind of poetry. So, if we take this quite literally, that *in the judgment specifically,* there is no hiding place either in Heaven or on Earth, then this eternal judgment must take place in another sphere, another dimension--perhaps a higher Heaven?

But yes, I see the "Great Tribulation" as not being a climactic or immediate judgment, but rather, a very long "punishment" upon the Jewish nation. Obviously, not all Jews are to be judged in precisely the same way as those in 70 AD, just as we are not all to be judged in the same way for Adam's Sin. But Jews today are still experiencing the fall out from their ancestors' rejection of Jesus as Messiah. And all of mankind is still suffering the effects of the sins of Adam and Eve.

Beyond this great punishment of the Jewish People with wandering for about 2000 years there is also the judgment at the very end of the age when Antichrist and his forces are comletely decimated. Also, the many nations who have collaborated with him or who have been guilty of atrocious sins will be punished in a final war, the Battle of Armageddon, which I think will be a world-wide nuclear war. Entire cities fall in an hour, the book of Revelation says.

So, I'm not counting how many judgments there will be or how many there have been. Divine judgment has been operating from the time Adam and Eve sinned. At some point, we are promised, the judgments will stop.

 

[LoveYeshua]

I would agree with most of the chronology as given with a few disagreements. The Abomination of Desolation, I believe, was the Roman Army in 70 AD who destroyed the Temple and the City of Jerusalem. This Army was the "Desolator," and it was viewed by the Jews as an "Abomination" because it was an pagan army entering into the City of God.

The "Great Tribulation" was not just the fall of the Temple in 70 AD, but very much more, the entire NT experience of the Jewish People, called "the worst Jewish experience in history." It was declared in Luke to be a "Jewish Punishment." It was the worst Jewish Punishment because it lasts longer than the 70 years of Babylonian Captivity, and longer than any Jewish Punishment ever.

The nation would be reduced to a People wandering across the earth until the time set by God to restore the nation. We are seeing that "Political Salvation" start in our own day. However, it will not be accompanied by a "Spiritual Restoration" until Christ Returns.

When Jesus Returns, we often focus on Israel because when Jesus discussed these things he was still speaking largely to Israel alone, the Gentiles not yet being the beneficiaries of his Gospel. However, when Jesus Returns, I believe he is returning not just to save national Israel in the political sense, but to restore many nations for the sake of Abraham, who was the recipient of these promises. I personally believe that in the Millennium many Christian nations will come to exist with little opposition.

Randy, many prophecies have dual meaning the abomination of desolation is one of them. Much worse is to come to this world we are in the beginning of Jacob's trouble. This I know as I have had several clear visions on this, events worse them all you mentioned will happen and sooner tham many think. I do not know exactly when but within the span of one generation certainly, I see some of the end time prophecies coming to pass NOW! Gaza is only one of them.

yes the focus will be and IS on Israel before Christ returns but the persecutions will be and has started for Christians wherever they are, the evil is spreading at an alarming rate, it starts to resemble the days before the great flood.

as for restoring Israel in the prophets many prophecies show that the lost tribes will be brought back to Israel when Christ returns, millions upon millions from all over, it is written.

At the end, when Christ returns, all willing Gentiles will be grafted to Israel and shall be One people as the Bible states. Jesus did speak to the Jews when he was with us on earth 2000 years ago but all of his meassage also applied to all nations as He clearly sent his disciples to all nations, to preach all Jesus did and said, all of it! of this .I am certain.

Blessings.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, many prophecies have dual meaning the abomination of desolation is one of them. Much worse is to come to this world we are in the beginning of Jacob's trouble. This I know as I have had several clear visions on this, events worse them all you mentioned will happen and sooner tham many think. I do not know exactly when but within the span of one generation certainly, I see some of the end time prophecies coming to pass NOW! Gaza is only one of them.

yes the focus will be and IS on Israel before Christ returns but the persecutions will be and has started for Christians wherever they are, the evil is spreading at an alarming rate, it starts to resemble the days before the great flood.

as for restoring Israel in the prophets many prophecies show that the lost tribes will be brought back to Israel when Christ returns, millions upon millions from all over, it is written.

At the end, when Christ returns, all willing Gentiles will be grafted to Israel and shall be One people as the Bible states. Jesus did speak to the Jews when he was with us on earth 2000 years ago but all of his meassage also applied to all nations as He clearly sent his disciples to all nations, to preach all Jesus did and said, all of it! of this .I am certain.

Blessings.

Well, there are a handful of things I would question here, although I can't touch on "visions" that you claim you've had. I'm not against visions at all--I just don't know what you've seen?

But I do know the Scriptures pretty well, and even if your visions are true, I don't think you're presenting them with the Scriptures being properly offerred. So here is how I see the Scriptures you've mentioned.

I don't operate with "dual prophecies," although I know that many prophecies of Jesus' 1st Coming were given in earlier historical events that merely alluded to the details of Christ's Coming. For example, Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers, and this was an historical event. And yet, the allusion is there to Christ, who was rejected by his Jewish brothers.

This, however, is not offering two interpretations for a single prophecy. God does not speak out of both sides of His mouth. What He has prophesied has a single meaning. The Abomination of Desolation is a term that is applied in two different occasions. It is not just a single prophecy, as such, but really two prophecies.

One AoD was applied to Antiochus 4, Dan 8.13, 11.31, and 12.11. A completely different prophecy was applied to the Roman Army in Dan 9.27 and Matt 24.15. So, these are not "dual fulfillments" for a single prophecy, but rather, two very different prophecies that use the same term. Obviously, they are not a "dual fulfillment" but two separate prophecies God intended for us to compare.

As for "Jacob's Trouble," I think Israel has been in trouble for a very long time. In particular, the angel Michael arose to protect Israel in the time after Antiochus 4's demise, when Rome rose up to take control of Israel and that part of the world. Rome became the cause of Israel's worst punishment, the "Great Tribulation" spoken of in Dan 12.1 and Matt 24.21. As we read in Dan 9, that is when Messiah is cut off, and both the city of Jerusalem and the Temple are destroyed, leading to a long period of Jewish exile, the Jewish Diaspora.

But I think you're confusing this "Great Tribulation" with the very end time of this Great Tribulation, which we sometimes call the "Endtimes" or the "Last Days." Actually, the Apostle John called his own time the "Last Days," primarily because Christ had already come and made atonement for those who wished to immediately enter into membership in the Kingdom of God. That is what the Last Days is all about.

But you're talking about the Reign of Antichrist, perhaps, which is what Dan 7.25, Dan 12.7, and the book of Revelation is talking about--a 1260 day period, or 3.5 years? This is not "God's Wrath," but Satan's last gasp in the present age. God allows him to develop the Antichristian Empire, a restoration of ancient Roman Imperialism. But it will be short-lived.

I don't honestly think anything could be worse than Christians being used as human candles, or Jews being thrown into gas ovens? So it isn't the intensity of the persecution, but the great reach of this awful empire across the world that will make it so terrible.

Though located in Europe (to make it a Roman heir), its reach will be as great as European Civilization, which is global. It may be only after the 1260 days of unchallenged power thaat the Asian powers willl challenge Antichrist and pursue him at Armageddon. How long that mobilization will take we are not told--he comes like a "thief in the night" to those who are spiritually blind and will not recognize the scenario.

Finally, when you speak of the restoration of Israel I agree, but do not believe there are lost tribes. The Northern Kingdom of Israel in ancient times went into the Assyrian Captivity and mingled with the pagans there. They had already left the God of Jerusalem, and they gave up their inheritance like Esau.

Fortunately, God's promise to *all of the tribes of Jacob* were fulfilled because some from every tribe in the North left the North and joined the territory of Judah in the South so as to worship God in Jerusalem. All tribes will now be restored through what's called the "Jewish People." They actually consist of all 12 tribes, in terms of DNA.

Also, I do not believe the joining of Gentile nations with the Israeli nation to become a single People of God is what Paul meant by Gentiles being "grafted onto a tree." At the time Paul said this there were no Christian nations yet, and only Israel existed as the nation of promise, to which Gentile converts attached themselves, as through the promise given to Abraham.

Now, in history we've had many Christian nations for pagan converts to be "grafted onto!" So, Paul wasn't speaking of a future grafting of Gentiles onto a restored Israel. No, he did speak, however, of the unity of all nations in Christ, where there is "neither Jew nor Gentile." In the MIllennium I think there will be many nations that fulfill God's promise to Abraham, including Israel and the many Christian nations in history.

 

[ScottA]

@LoveYeshua

I compliment you on your detail. It's good I think--I haven't read it all as yet, but enough to see that it is--unfortunately, merely a record and perspective as seen from this side of the equation. While, the biblical events of history are certainly of interest to us living in the world, there is something missed from that perspective alone--which is the greater portion--God's portion and perspective, and the actual and more important reason for them being given as God's word, and made manifest in the world. To just considering all from a worldly perspective, would be like building a wonderful boat, without fully considering the ocean.

In other words, each one of those points and events you listed has a greater message behind it--it's not just history. I know you did a lot of work--and that's great, but before we are through looking to God, we should be looking at each one of those events from His perspective and with His purpose in mind--which may even have little or nothing to do with the worldly event. In such a perspective, the events of this world become like nursery rhymes, as nice stories with a moral, but ultimately (in this case) having a greater meaning and purpose. For instance, "Mary had a little lamb whose fleece was white as snow"...is fun and a nice story with pretty pictures (images), but it is--well, I don't even need to say, because it should be obvious what the story is actually about. But, because we are not talking about nursery rhymes per se, but about the history of the world, we are inclined to think that the biblical events of history is quite enough already--forgetting that God is our Father--and His ways are higher--and we are babes, even now just cutting our teeth.

But even saying such a thing--has been sooo rejected, I think I'll stop there. Unless of course you see and understand and want me to continue.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, I see what you mean, although I have to admit I just sort of relegated the statement, "Heaven and Earth fled from Him," to a kind of poetry. So, if we take this quite literally, that *in the judgment specifically,* there is no hiding place either in Heaven or on Earth, then this eternal judgment must take place in another sphere, another dimension--perhaps a higher Heaven?

But yes, I see the "Great Tribulation" as not being a climactic or immediate judgment, but rather, a very long "punishment" upon the Jewish nation. Obviously, not all Jews are to be judged in precisely the same way as those in 70 AD, just as we are not all to be judged in the same way for Adam's Sin. But Jews today are still experiencing the fall out from their ancestors' rejection of Jesus as Messiah. And all of mankind is still suffering the effects of the sins of Adam and Eve.

Beyond this great punishment of the Jewish People with wandering for about 2000 years there is also the judgment at the very end of the age when Antichrist and his forces are comletely decimated. Also, the many nations who have collaborated with him or who have been guilty of atrocious sins will be punished in a final war, the Battle of Armageddon, which I think will be a world-wide nuclear war. Entire cities fall in an hour, the book of Revelation says.

So, I'm not counting how many judgments there will be or how many there have been. Divine judgment has been operating from the time Adam and Eve sinned. At some point, we are promised, the judgments will stop.

The first earth and first heaven are gone. Passed away can mean nothing else than they ceased to exist, disappeared, burned up so much that Peter says their elements burned and dissolved. If you dissolve something it no longer has any form or substance.
Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2 Peter 3 is about the coming of Jesus a second time. And at that time the earth and heavens that now are, they are dissolved, it is the end of the world, and the Day of Judgment. A 1000 year reign on this first earth still with rebellion, sin, and death, is not a New Earth is it.

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jude also says this
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

[Scott Downey]

The above does fit with the great Day of judgement where in Rev 20 is taught the earth and heaven are dissolved, the dead are raised to stand before God, the books are opened and they are judged by the things written in the books.

If their names are not written in the Book of Life (of the Lamb as only such have eternal life as Christ so said), they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

Then next thing we read is God creates all things NEW, with a NEW earth and New heaven.

Christ the 'first fruits of those who have died, so He is the first resurrection. Those whose life is hid in Christ and who died in the flesh are in heaven alive in and with Christ right now, not for a 1000 years, but for all time, ever after. They do not start living and reigning only at the start of a 1000 millennial reign. When Christ appears, this for us is our resurrected glorification and we shall also experience the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven onto a new earth.
But before that we rule with Him in heaven as we are made to sit in heavenly places in Christ as a current reality, not a future one for all ages to come, forever and ever.

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Colossians 3
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

 

[LoveYeshua]

@LoveYeshua

I compliment you on your detail. It's good I think--I haven't read it all as yet, but enough to see that it is--unfortunately, merely a record and perspective as seen from this side of the equation. While, the biblical events of history are certainly of interest to us living in the world, there is something missed from that perspective alone--which is the greater portion--God's portion and perspective, and the actual and more important reason for them being given as God's word, and made manifest in the world. To just considering all from a worldly perspective, would be like building a wonderful boat, without fully considering the ocean.

In other words, each one of those points and events you listed has a greater message behind it--it's not just history. I know you did a lot of work--and that's great, but before we are through looking to God, we should be looking at each one of those events from His perspective and with His purpose in mind--which may even have little or nothing to do with the worldly event. In such a perspective, the events of this world become like nursery rhymes, as nice stories with a moral, but ultimately (in this case) having a greater meaning and purpose. For instance, "Mary had a little lamb whose fleece was white as snow"...is fun and a nice story with pretty pictures (images), but it is--well, I don't even need to say, because it should be obvious what the story is actually about. But, because we are not talking about nursery rhymes per se, but about the history of the world, we are inclined to think that the biblical events of history is quite enough already--forgetting that God is our Father--and His ways are higher--and we are babes, even now just cutting our teeth.

But even saying such a thing--has been sooo rejected, I think I'll stop there. Unless of course you see and understand and want me to continue.

Good morning Scott, you are right in saying it is very shallow because it is. normally people only read ONE paragraph and quit then complain and then I send them back to the opening post and they usually see that I have spoken of what they were saying I had forgotten.

this one is only simple a bible chronology and omits a lot of details. I had to leave a lot out because each post is limited to 10000 characters. I had to write it to set things straight as there are so many different versions of the same chronology but people forget that it is described in the bible and is part of GOD's plan for us, what we think we know is irrelevant, what counts as you know, is God's words and for us to do HIS will not ours.

But if you want to turn this into a bible study I am all for it. I could take each section and expand it further and link these chronological events with the known plans God has made for us, you and others could certainly participate as long as we follow biblical truths and avoid interpretations and false doctrines.

Cheers.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Well, there are a handful of things I would question here, although I can't touch on "visions" that you claim you've had. I'm not against visions at all--I just don't know what you've seen?

But I do know the Scriptures pretty well, and even if your visions are true, I don't think you're presenting them with the Scriptures being properly offerred. So here is how I see the Scriptures you've mentioned.

I don't operate with "dual prophecies," although I know that many prophecies of Jesus' 1st Coming were given in earlier historical events that merely alluded to the details of Christ's Coming. For example, Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers, and this was an historical event. And yet, the allusion is there to Christ, who was rejected by his Jewish brothers.

This, however, is not offering two interpretations for a single prophecy. God does not speak out of both sides of His mouth. What He has prophesied has a single meaning. The Abomination of Desolation is a term that is applied in two different occasions. It is not just a single prophecy, as such, but really two prophecies.

One AoD was applied to Antiochus 4, Dan 8.13, 11.31, and 12.11. A completely different prophecy was applied to the Roman Army in Dan 9.27 and Matt 24.15. So, these are not "dual fulfillments" for a single prophecy, but rather, two very different prophecies that use the same term. Obviously, they are not a "dual fulfillment" but two separate prophecies God intended for us to compare.

As for "Jacob's Trouble," I think Israel has been in trouble for a very long time. In particular, the angel Michael arose to protect Israel in the time after Antiochus 4's demise, when Rome rose up to take control of Israel and that part of the world. Rome became the cause of Israel's worst punishment, the "Great Tribulation" spoken of in Dan 12.1 and Matt 24.21. As we read in Dan 9, that is when Messiah is cut off, and both the city of Jerusalem and the Temple are destroyed, leading to a long period of Jewish exile, the Jewish Diaspora.

But I think you're confusing this "Great Tribulation" with the very end time of this Great Tribulation, which we sometimes call the "Endtimes" or the "Last Days." Actually, the Apostle John called his own time the "Last Days," primarily because Christ had already come and made atonement for those who wished to immediately enter into membership in the Kingdom of God. That is what the Last Days is all about.

But you're talking about the Reign of Antichrist, perhaps, which is what Dan 7.25, Dan 12.7, and the book of Revelation is talking about--a 1260 day period, or 3.5 years? This is not "God's Wrath," but Satan's last gasp in the present age. God allows him to develop the Antichristian Empire, a restoration of ancient Roman Imperialism. But it will be short-lived.

I don't honestly think anything could be worse than Christians being used as human candles, or Jews being thrown into gas ovens? So it isn't the intensity of the persecution, but the great reach of this awful empire across the world that will make it so terrible.

Though located in Europe (to make it a Roman heir), its reach will be as great as European Civilization, which is global. It may be only after the 1260 days of unchallenged power thaat the Asian powers willl challenge Antichrist and pursue him at Armageddon. How long that mobilization will take we are not told--he comes like a "thief in the night" to those who are spiritually blind and will not recognize the scenario.

Finally, when you speak of the restoration of Israel I agree, but do not believe there are lost tribes. The Northern Kingdom of Israel in ancient times went into the Assyrian Captivity and mingled with the pagans there. They had already left the God of Jerusalem, and they gave up their inheritance like Esau.

Fortunately, God's promise to *all of the tribes of Jacob* were fulfilled because some from every tribe in the North left the North and joined the territory of Judah in the South so as to worship God in Jerusalem. All tribes will now be restored through what's called the "Jewish People." They actually consist of all 12 tribes, in terms of DNA.

Also, I do not believe the joining of Gentile nations with the Israeli nation to become a single People of God is what Paul meant by Gentiles being "grafted onto a tree." At the time Paul said this there were no Christian nations yet, and only Israel existed as the nation of promise, to which Gentile converts attached themselves, as through the promise given to Abraham.

Now, in history we've had many Christian nations for pagan converts to be "grafted onto!" So, Paul wasn't speaking of a future grafting of Gentiles onto a restored Israel. No, he did speak, however, of the unity of all nations in Christ, where there is "neither Jewnor Gentile." In the MIllennium I think there will be many nations that fulfill God's promise to Abraham, including Israel and the many Christian nations in history.

The vision(s) were for this set, a simple one. it started with the word EXODUS flashing before my eyes several times per day , this lasted more than a month. Then I prayed on this to know what to do, a few weeks later, the same type of vision this time the words "Jacob's trouble" flashed in front of my eyes several timer per day for one week. that was about seven years ago. I "know"" we are in that period right now.

About the lost tribes, read the prophets and see there will be a second EXODUS when Christ returns, the lost tribes will be recalled. I would write a few posts on this in a new thread as some point.

Cheers.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The vision(s) were for this set, a simple one. it started with the word EXODUS flashing before my eyes several times per day , this lasted more than a month. Then I prayed on this to know what to do, a few weeks later, the same type of vision this time the words "Jacob's trouble" flashed in front of my eyes several timer per day for one week. that was about seven years ago. I "know"" we are in that period right now.

About the lost tribes, read the prophets and see there will be a second EXODUS when Christ returns, the lost tribes will be recalled. I would write a few posts on this in a new thread as some point.

Cheers.

As I said, I don't question the fact you and others get visions. It sounds very interesting--Israel, in our day, is being politically restored, although the spiritual restoration of the country comes later, after Christ's Return.

And yes, as I said, Israel has been in trouble or a long time. Perhaps God is warning you that now that Israel is a nation or state again, they will continue to go through troubles, now as a state?

If so, I think that's true...obviously. We should pray for Israel, and not join the Woke crowd who think it's popular to hate the Jews. That Woke crowd hates both Jews and Christians probably because they represent a God who is true with moral authority.?

Many people don't want to be told what to do. And they instinctively hate anything that God's Spirit is doing in the world, including delivering Israel from UN and world hate.

The 2nd exodus you read in the Bible in Isaiah is a common theme throughout the OT Prophets, who guaranteed God's promise to Abraham that he would have a biological nation forever. Israel would always be restored. They were restored after the Babylonian Captivity, and they would be restored again, as we see is happening today.

 

[Davidpt]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

This does NOT take place on this earth if that is what your thinking.
The proof is found in Rev 20 and the great white throne judgment.

What happened to the earth and heavens before this judgment?
They flee away from the face of Hm who sits on the throne, and are found no place, they are gone away.

The Great White Throne Judgment​

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is only one judgment day of the living and the dead.
I hope you don't think there are 2 great Judgement Days.

And after this judgment, what do we get from God?
New Earth, New Heavens

Revelation 21
New King James Version
All Things Made New

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

You might have a valid point if the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment are the same judgment. I tend to think they are not the same judgment.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The first earth and first heaven are gone. Passed away can mean nothing else than they ceased to exist, disappeared, burned up so much that Peter says their elements burned and dissolved. If you dissolve something it no longer has any form or substance.
Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2 Peter 3 is about the coming of Jesus a second time. And at that time the earth and heavens that now are, they are dissolved, it is the end of the world, and the Day of Judgment. A 1000 year reign on this first earth still with rebellion, sin, and death, is not a New Earth is it.

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jude also says this
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

"Elements are dissolved" can mean a simple campfire. If you're talking about the annihilation of the entire planet, and the space that contains all of the stars in the universe, I think that goes well beyond the meaning.

In my opinion, it is simply talking about the destruction of earthly works that are of use to Man but of no use to God. They will be completely burned up, their substances destroyed or changed to carbon, etc.

If the universe is viewed in terms of personification, such as the heavens "fleeing away" from God, then I don't think that's talking about annihilation of the universe either. You still have to deal with Scriptures that state, matter of factly, that the "earth is forever."

God didn't create the universe in six days, just to destroy it, and then have to begin again. He could've, but I don't think that's what is meant by the "New Heavens and the New Earth." They are renewed, or rendered immortal and eternally hospitable to Man. My opinion only...