Question for Premils (Amils welcome to answer): How many times are the dead judged?

[IndianaRob]

Something more to consider regarding the question posed by this thread when comparing scripture with scripture:

Revelation 18
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20
5 But the rest [loipoy] of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:5 uses the same word used in Revelation 19:21:

And the remnant [loipoi] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Question: Does the time for the judging of the dead of necessity mean that it's also the time of the second death? Or are the dead that John saw being delivered up from hades at the close of Revelation 20 speaking about the rest of the dead who had already been judged, and it was now time for the sentencin to be applied?

The first death is the condition we inherited from Adam. The second death is the death of the body.

Before the cross, it was like the rich man and Lazarus. After the cross the believer is translated from this world to heaven. A nonbeliever is cast into the lake of fire.

 

[IndianaRob]

Psalm 139, IR, is a psalm of David. David is talking... singing, actually... about himself in Psalm 139.

Grace and peace to you.

It can’t be about David, David never wrought curiously in the lowest parts of the earth.

 

[Zao is life]

The first death is the condition we inherited from Adam. The second death is the death of the body.

Before the cross, it was like the rich man and Lazarus. After the cross the believer is translated from this world to heaven. A nonbeliever is cast into the lake of fire.

I don't agree with that, because it's not biblical IMO, but I saw others had put forward arguments against what you said above so even if I do the same, I will do so knowing that we will still disagree, but here goes:

"When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

Take a look at the long list of verses in the New Testament talking about the resurrection of the human body from the dead and ask yourself why this would be such an important subject in the Bible.

It's an extremely important subject because the Bible teaches us about the living [zao] God, who has life [zoe] in Himself, creating human beings and breathing life [zoe] into them in order that they may become living [zao] souls [psyche], so that they may live | may be alive [zao], each one in his own created body on the created earth.

The Bible does not teach us that God created human beings so that Adam or anyone else should "die and then go to heaven when they die". The resurrection of the human body from the dead is an integral part of the gospel.

In 1 Corinthians 15:26 we read that death is the enemy of God. In Ezekiel 18:32 God says, "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

Paul wrote that this is the reason Christ died and rose again:

"For this reason Christ died [apothnesko] and rose again from the dead [anistemi], and lived again [anazao: lived again in a body that is not dead], so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive in a body that is not dead]." (Romans 14:9).

The whole reason Jesus came into the world, bore our sin in His own body on the cross, died and rose again bodily was so that we could be forgiven for our sins and likewise rise again bodily when He returns.

-- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living [zao] One, and I became dead [nekros], and behold, I am alive [zao] to the ages of the ages, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." (Revelation 1:17-18).

Regarding death Paul wrote that we can be "always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord. Therefore we are also laboring to be well-pleasing to Him, whether at home or away from home." (2 Corinthians 5:6-9).

"Away from home out of the body" = souls without limbs. God created human beings with a body, a soul, and breathed a spirit into him. Regarding the dead body Paul wrote,

"It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]." (1 Corinthians 15:44).

Whether a natural body or a spiritual body, it's still a body, and there will be no body for the person who has died before the time of the return of Christ and the resurrection of the body from the dead.

 

[IndianaRob]

I don't agree with that, because it's not biblical IMO, but I saw others had put forward arguments against what you said above so even if I do the same, I will do so knowing that we will still disagree, but here goes:

"When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

Take a look at the long list of verses in the New Testament talking about the resurrection of the human body from the dead and ask yourself why this would be such an important subject in the Bible.

It's an extremely important subject because the Bible teaches us about the living [zao] God, who has life [zoe] in Himself, creating human beings and breathing life [zoe] into them in order that they may become living [zao] souls [psyche], so that they may live | may be alive [zao], each one in his own created body on the created earth.

The Bible does not teach us that God created human beings so that Adam or anyone else should "die and then go to heaven when they die". The resurrection of the human body from the dead is an integral part of the gospel.

In 1 Corinthians 15:26 we read that death is the enemy of God. In Ezekiel 18:32 God says, "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

Paul wrote that this is the reason Christ died and rose again:

"For this reason Christ died [apothnesko] and rose again from the dead [anistemi], and lived again [anazao: lived again in a body that is not dead], so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive in a body that is not dead]." (Romans 14:9).

The whole reason Jesus came into the world, bore our sin in His own body on the cross, died and rose again bodily was so that we could be forgiven for our sins and likewise rise again bodily when He returns.

-- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living [zao] One, and I became dead [nekros], and behold, I am alive [zao] to the ages of the ages, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." (Revelation 1:17-18).

Regarding death Paul wrote that we can be "always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord. Therefore we are also laboring to be well-pleasing to Him, whether at home or away from home." (2 Corinthians 5:6-9).

"Away from home out of the body" = souls without limbs. God created human beings with a body, a soul, and breathed a spirit into him. Regarding the dead body Paul wrote,

"It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]." (1 Corinthians 15:44).

Whether a natural body or a spiritual body, it's still a body, and there will be no body for the person who has died before the time of the return of Christ and the resurrection of the body from the dead.

In your view, where are the Old Testament believers in Christ right now

 

[Zao is life]

In your view, where are the Old Testament believers in Christ right now

I'm going to give you the biblical scriptures that are the source of my view as part of my reply.

In my view the souls of the Old Testament saints were not in hades when Jesus died - because in His parable Jesus made a distinction between hades and Abraham's bosom (which IMO He would not have made - even in a parable - were there no such distinction in reality)

- but Jesus Himself descended even into sheol / hades when His body died, but He came up again from hades when He rose from the dead.

- and we are told that His soul went to hades, His body to the tomb - and by the Spirit He preached to the spirits imprisoned in hades - and the same (Holy) Spirit by which He preached to the spirits in prison in hades also quickened His mortal body and raised Him (by raising His body) from the dead.

The Bible talks about:-

hades (sheol in Hebrew: the realm of deceased souls); (not the same as Abraham's bosom); and

tartaroo (as the deepest part of hades, where fallen angelic beings - spirits - Psalm 104:4; Hebrews 1:7 - are imprisoned).

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,

being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (2 Peter 3:18-20).

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [G5020 tartaroo], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly .." (2 Peter 2:4-5).

G5020 ταρταρόω tartarovw tartaroo {tar-tar-o'-o}
from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.

Almost everyone assumes that 2 Peter 3:18-20 is talking about human souls as the "spirits" that Jesus went and preached to when He descended into hades - but in scripture, the deepest part of hades - tartaroo - is the only place associated with a prison.

Psalms 104:1-5 says,

"Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Jesus went and preached to the spirits who were imprisoned in hades when He descended

- and we are told that His soul went to hades, His body to the tomb - and by the Spirit He preached to the spirits imprisoned in hades - and the same (Holy) Spirit by which He preached to the spirits in prison in hades also quickened His mortal body and raised Him (by raising His body) from the dead.

There is "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:6, 8-10).

Christ died for all.

So IMO the souls of all Old Testament saints who had like faith in God and in the Word of God that Abraham had, went through the power of His resurrection from Abraham's bosom to heaven to be with Christ - who is in the bosom of the Father - because He is the Word of God in whom they (and Abraham) had believed - even IF they did not fully understand while they were alive [zao] in their bodies.

The Greek New Testament uses the word "gehennah" every time Jesus talks about the everlasting destruction of body and soul - and Jesus warned repeatedly that we should fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in genhenna. In the New Testament the words "gehennah" and "lake of fire" both represent an everlasting destruction of body and soul, which Christ saves us from through our faith in Him.​

 

[IndianaRob]

I'm going to give you the biblical scriptures that are the source of my view as part of my reply.

In my view the souls of the Old Testament saints were not in hades when Jesus died - because in His parable Jesus made a distinction between hades and Abraham's bosom (which IMO He would not have made - even in a parable - were there no such distinction in reality)

- but Jesus Himself descended even into sheol / hades when His body died, but He came up again from hades when He rose from the dead.

- and we are told that His soul went to hades, His body to the tomb - and by the Spirit He preached to the spirits imprisoned in hades - and the same (Holy) Spirit by which He preached to the spirits in prison in hades also quickened His mortal body and raised Him (by raising His body) from the dead.

The Bible talks about:-

hades (sheol in Hebrew: the realm of deceased souls); (not the same as Abraham's bosom); and

tartaroo (as the deepest part of hades, where fallen angelic beings - spirits - Psalm 104:4; Hebrews 1:7 - are imprisoned).

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,

being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (2 Peter 3:18-20).

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [G5020 tartaroo], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly .." (2 Peter 2:4-5).

G5020 ταρταρόω tartarovw tartaroo {tar-tar-o'-o}
from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.

Almost everyone assumes that 2 Peter 3:18-20 is talking about human souls as the "spirits" that Jesus went and preached to when He descended into hades - but in scripture, the deepest part of hades - tartaroo - is the only place associated with a prison.

Psalms 104:1-5 says,

"Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Jesus went and preached to the spirits who were imprisoned in hades when He descended

- and we are told that His soul went to hades, His body to the tomb - and by the Spirit He preached to the spirits imprisoned in hades - and the same (Holy) Spirit by which He preached to the spirits in prison in hades also quickened His mortal body and raised Him (by raising His body) from the dead.

There is "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:6, 8-10).

Christ died for all.

So IMO the souls of all Old Testament saints who had like faith in God and in the Word of God that Abraham had, went through the power of His resurrection from Abraham's bosom to heaven to be with Christ - who is in the bosom of the Father - because He is the Word of God in whom they (and Abraham) had believed - even IF they did not fully understand while they were alive [zao] in their bodies.

The Greek New Testament uses the word "gehennah" every time Jesus talks about the everlasting destruction of body and soul - and Jesus warned repeatedly that we should fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in genhenna. In the New Testament the words "gehennah" and "lake of fire" both represent an everlasting destruction of body and soul, which Christ saves us from through our faith in Him.​

I think earlier you said something like “no one gets a body until the resurrection and second coming”.

Am I correct in saying that you beleive the Old Testament saints are in heaven right now but they don’t have bodies yet?

 

[Zao is life]

I think earlier you said something like “no one gets a body until the resurrection and second coming”.

Am I correct in saying that you beleive the Old Testament saints are in heaven right now but they don’t have bodies yet?

Yes. No difference between saints - whether Old Testament or New Testament.

Eternal life is in Christ, who alone has life [zoe] in Himself. Only God has life [zoe] in Himself (John 1:2 & 4; John 5:26; 1 John 5:11-12).

Likewise with the resurrection of the body from the dead (John 11:25).

God is the source of all life [zoe] and it is in Him that created human beings live | are alive [zao] and move and have our being (Acts 17:28).

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes. No difference between saints - whether Old Testament or New Testament.

Eternal life is in Christ, who alone has life [zoe] in Himself. Only God has life [zoe] in Himself (John 1:2 & 4; John 5:26; 1 John 5:11-12).

Likewise with the resurrection of the body from the dead (John 11:25).

God is the source of all life [zoe] and it is in Him that created human beings live | are alive [zao] and move and have our being (Acts 17:28).

I don’t understand why people believe the OT saints have to wait on us to get their heavenly body.

Is the idea that what Jesus did on the cross was not enough to reward the OT saints with glorified bodies?

Does Jesus have to do something else at the second coming to give the OT saints the right to get glorified bodies?

Basically why are the OT saints waiting?

Doesn’t the Bible specifically teach against that?

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

[Zao is life]

I don’t understand why people believe the OT saints have to wait on us to get their heavenly body.

Is the idea that what Jesus did on the cross was not enough to reward the OT saints with glorified bodies?

Does Jesus have to do something else at the second coming to give the OT saints the right to get glorified bodies?

Basically why are the OT saints waiting?

Doesn’t the Bible specifically teach against that?

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The difference between what Paul meant when he said "asleep" and what he meant when he said "alive" in verse 17 of the passage you quote should be obvious.

Saints are saints. Jesus said something about the last shall be first and the first last - if God so chose it.

IMO we cannot argue points like yours without being presumptuous and assuming what God's will is regarding your contention.

Does the New Testament state anywhere (clearly) that the OT saints have already risen from the dead?

One place it speaks about something like what you speak about is here:

Matthew 27
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Notice it says many bodies of the saints arose - so it's very clear. Notice also that it says that until then, they slept - the same word Paul uses here for those who died in Christ:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul makes it clear what he means because immediately afterward he says that the moment all those who have fallen asleep in Christ have risen, then those who are still alive [zao] will be changed and be taken up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air.

If there are O.T saints who have already been resurrected and found in their glorified bodies that sounds kinda nice to me. I wouldn't mind meeting one of them, if that were the case. If I ever do, then when I'm finished shaking from my shock and fright, I have a lot of questions to ask.

But let's be real. What we want - the way we want things to be - and the way things are, is often not the same thing.

What do you think about Matthew 27:50-53? Do you believe it's talking about the resurrection of ALL the O.T saints? Or is it only talking about "many", which is what Matthew 27:52 says.

What's Matthew 27:50-53 talking about, in your view?

PS: I could be wrong when I say no O.T saints have risen bodily from the dead yet. I don't know everything.

 

[Scott Downey]

We won’t be naked in heaven we’ll have our glorified bodies. Which is what Paul is talking about here:

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Yes I read your earlier post and we are too far apart in beliefs to have a discussion.

Those who are naked are going to Hell and destruction
Jesus says those not ready for His return, watching, waiting are naked and all will see their shame as they are not saved.
Revelation 16:15
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

Naked could be thought of as those without Christ, those on the outside.

Revelation 19:7-9
New King James Version
7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”


Only the saints are clothed, in the Christian artwork, people in hell are shown mostly naked.

 

[Scott Downey]

I don’t understand why people believe the OT saints have to wait on us to get their heavenly body.

Is the idea that what Jesus did on the cross was not enough to reward the OT saints with glorified bodies?

Does Jesus have to do something else at the second coming to give the OT saints the right to get glorified bodies?

Basically why are the OT saints waiting?

Doesn’t the Bible specifically teach against that?

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

We do not get our glorified resurrected body until Christ appears (returns) and then is the resurrection and the judgment
We however are right now raised with Christ, we have a part in the First Resurrection, which is His own. So, we are then hid with Christ in God and seated in heavenly places, in the Sprit, right now, just as Paul says in Ephesians 2.

Colossians 3

If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Ephesians 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Christ was raised and we were raised up also together with Himself, but hid with Christ in God for the time being.

 

[IndianaRob]

The difference between what Paul meant when he said "asleep" and what he meant when he said "alive" in verse 17 of the passage you quote should be obvious.

Saints are saints. Jesus said something about the last shall be first and the first last - if God so chose it.

IMO we cannot argue points like yours without being presumptuous and assuming what God's will is regarding your contention.

Does the New Testament state anywhere (clearly) that the OT saints have already risen from the dead?

One place it speaks about something like what you speak about is here:

Matthew 27
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Notice it says many bodies of the saints arose - so it's very clear. Notice also that it says that until then, they slept - the same word Paul uses here for those who died in Christ:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul makes it clear what he means because immediately afterward he says that the moment all those who have fallen asleep in Christ have risen, then those who are still alive [zao] will be changed and be taken up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air.

If there are O.T saints who have already been resurrected and found in their glorified bodies that sounds kinda nice to me. I wouldn't mind meeting one of them, if that were the case. If I ever do, then when I'm finished shaking from my shock and fright, I have a lot of questions to ask.

But let's be real. What we want - the way we want things to be - and the way things are, is often not the same thing.

What do you think about Matthew 27:50-53? Do you believe it's talking about the resurrection of ALL the O.T saints? Or is it only talking about "many", which is what Matthew 27:52 says.

What's Matthew 27:50-53 talking about, in your view?

PS: I could be wrong when I say no O.T saints have risen bodily from the dead yet. I don't know everything.

The church has drilled into us the idea that the resurrection is about raising dead earthly bodies, and I do understand where you’re coming from.

But the seed analogy in 1 Corinthians 15 proves beyond any doubt that it is the soul or spirit that is raised in the resurrection. I have yet to see a convincing argument that prove the seed body is raised rather than the seed itself.

The soul/spirit must be raised from death to life in order to enter heaven.

 

[Scott Downey]

The church has drilled into us the idea that the resurrection is about raising dead earthly bodies, and I do understand where you’re coming from.

But the seed analogy in 1 Corinthians 15 proves beyond any doubt that it is the soul or spirit that is raised in the resurrection. I have yet to see a convincing argument that prove the seed body is raised rather than the seed itself.

The soul/spirit must be raised from death to life in order to enter heaven.

And it is, when we are born again, we are born of the Spirit, and we are raised with Christ.
Our citizenship is then in Heaven with God which is our true home.

 

[IndianaRob]

We do not get our glorified resurrected body until Christ appears (returns) and then is the resurrection and the judgment
We however are right now raised with Christ, we have a part in the First Resurrection, which is His own. So, we are then hid with Christ in God and seated in heavenly places, in the Sprit, right now, just as Paul says in Ephesians 2.

Colossians 3

If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Ephesians 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Christ was raised and we were raised up also together with Himself, but hid with Christ in God for the time being.

According to 2 Corinthians 5 we have a body already made in heaven waiting for us when we leave this earthly body.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens

 

[Zao is life]

The church has drilled into us the idea that the resurrection is about raising dead earthly bodies, and I do understand where you’re coming from.

But the seed analogy in 1 Corinthians 15 proves beyond any doubt that it is the soul or spirit that is raised in the resurrection. I have yet to see a convincing argument that prove the seed body is raised rather than the seed itself.

The soul/spirit must be raised from death to life in order to enter heaven.

I don't agree. From the very first time I ever read what Paul wrote until now, I have understood that he was talking about the corruptible physical dead human body [soma] as the seed of an incorruptible human body [soma], because whenever you see the word soma in scripture it's talking about the human body, not the human soul [psuche] or spirit [pneuma]:

"It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]."

Right there Paul talks about the body, soul and spirit that God created human beings with (not only the soul/spirit). The soul/spirit passes from death to life, it is not "raised" from death to life. That's a false doctrine:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed [G3327 metabaino] from death unto life." (John 5:24).

G3327 μεταβαίνω metabaivnw metabaino {met-ab-ah'-ee-no}
from 3326 and the base of 939; to change place:--depart, go, pass, remove.

Everlasting life is given to us in Christ when we are born of the Spirit of Christ - in Christ, in whom is life and who (among human beings) alone possesses life in Himself - and whose Spirit of life comes to dwell in you when you are born of His Spirit.

"When the Messiah, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

Created: When YHVH God created [bara] man,
Formed: He formed [yatsar] man of the dust of the ground; and
Breathed: breathed (naphach) into his nostrils the breath (nshamah) of life (chay); and
Became: the man became [H1961 haya] a living [chay] soul (nephesh). (Genesis 1:1 & 26-27, and Genesis 2:7)

"The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born [γεννάω gennáō] of the Spirit." (John 3:8).

God created Adam as body, soul and spirit and the Bible does not teach us that God created human beings so that Adam or anyone else should "die and then go to heaven when they die". The resurrection of the human body from the dead is an integral part of the gospel.

All the verses in the New Testament talking about the resurrection of the body from the dead have been not only listed, but quoted here - and second to dying for our sins so that we could be forgiven, it's the reason why Jesus Himself took on human flesh, died and rose again from the dead bodily and ascended into heaven bodily.​

 

[Zao is life]

And it is, when we are born again, we are born of the Spirit, and we are raised with Christ.
Our citizenship is then in Heaven with God which is our true home.

According to scripture, in whom is the eternal life that you have received from God.

In yourself?

Read John 1:4; John 5:26 and 1 John 5:11-12 before you answer.

 

[IndianaRob]

I don't agree. From the very first time I ever read what Paul wrote until now, I have understood that he was talking about the corruptible physical dead human body [soma] as the seed of an incorruptible human body [soma], because whenever you see the word soma in scripture it's talking about the human body, not the human soul [psuche] or spirit [pneuma]:

"It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]."

Right there Paul talks about the body, soul and spirit that God created human beings with (not only the soul/spirit). The soul/spirit passes from death to life, it is not "raised" from death to life. That's a false doctrine:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed [G3327 metabaino] from death unto life." (John 5:24).

G3327 μεταβαίνω metabaivnw metabaino {met-ab-ah'-ee-no}
from 3326 and the base of 939; to change place:--depart, go, pass, remove.

Everlasting life is given to us in Christ when we are born of the Spirit of Christ - in Christ, in whom is life and who (among human beings) alone possesses life in Himself - and whose Spirit of life comes to dwell in you when you are born of His Spirit.

"When the Messiah, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

Created: When YHVH God created [bara] man,
Formed: He formed [yatsar] man of the dust of the ground; and
Breathed: breathed (naphach) into his nostrils the breath (nshamah) of life (chay); and
Became: the man became [H1961 haya] a living [chay] soul (nephesh). (Genesis 1:1 & 26-27, and Genesis 2:7)

"The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born [γεννάω gennáō] of the Spirit." (John 3:8).

God created Adam as body, soul and spirit and the Bible does not teach us that God created human beings so that Adam or anyone else should "die and then go to heaven when they die". The resurrection of the human body from the dead is an integral part of the gospel.

All the verses in the New Testament talking about the resurrection of the body from the dead have been not only listed, but quoted here - and second to dying for our sins so that we could be forgiven, it's the reason why Jesus Himself took on human flesh, died and rose again from the dead bodily and ascended into heaven bodily.​

I do not understand that logic but I do realize and respect that that is what you believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Something more to consider regarding the question posed by this thread when comparing scripture with scripture:

Revelation 18
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20
5 But the rest [loipoy] of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:5 uses the same word used in Revelation 19:21:

And the remnant [loipoi] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Question: Does the time for the judging of the dead of necessity mean that it's also the time of the second death? Or are the dead that John saw being delivered up from hades at the close of Revelation 20 speaking about the rest of the dead who had already been judged, and it was now time for the sentencin to be applied?

My answer to your first question is yes because of the all-inclusive language used in Revelation 20:11-15.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that John "saw the dead, small and great". Saying "small and great" is all-inclusive type language. Whether one of the dead is seen as being small or great or anything in between, he or she is included among the dead who will be judged. And notice how he included the dead from the sea and from death and hell. That again comes across as being all-inclusive. And then he points out that anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Again, the text is all-inclusive. No exceptions are made there. No one whose name is not written in the book of life is excluded from being cast into the lake of fire. So, I believe this portrays the time of the dead that they should be judged that will be signaled by the sounding of the seventh trumpet. There is no indication anywhere that any of the dead will be judged at any other time than what is described in Revelation 20:11-15.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don’t understand why people believe the OT saints have to wait on us to get their heavenly body.

Because we (NT saints) are one with them. Together we are one body of Christ (the church).

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Is the idea that what Jesus did on the cross was not enough to reward the OT saints with glorified bodies?

No.

Does Jesus have to do something else at the second coming to give the OT saints the right to get glorified bodies?

No.

Basically why are the OT saints waiting?

Because they are one with NT saints and God doesn't differentiate between OT saints and NT saints. So, all will be rewarded at the same time.

Doesn’t the Bible specifically teach against that?

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

No, it does not. Read the surrounding verses to see the context of that verse.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What verse 15 is saying that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will not prevent or precede them which are asleep. What that means can be seen in verses 16 and 17. After Jesus descends from heaven the dead in Christ (them which are asleep) will rise first (will first be resurrected) and then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. So, this passage has both the dead in Christ, which includes all dead believers from all-time and the living in Christ being caught up to Christ at the same time when He comes again.

 

[IndianaRob]

Because we (NT saints) are one with them. Together we are one body of Christ (the church).

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


No.


No.


Because they are one with NT saints and God doesn't differentiate between OT saints and NT saints. So, all will be rewarded at the same time.


No, it does not. Read the surrounding verses to see the context of that verse.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What verse 15 is saying that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will not prevent or precede them which are asleep. What that means can be seen in verses 16 and 17. After Jesus descends from heaven the dead in Christ (them which are asleep) will rise first (will first be resurrected) and then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. So, this passage has both the dead in Christ, which includes all dead believers from all-time and the living in Christ being caught up to Christ at the same time when He comes again.

One word determines whether these verses are future or have already happened and that word is WE.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In your belief system WE can not include Paul because that puts The Resurrection at the resurrection of Christ and not at the future second coming that you believe in.

I’ve already shown that we have a heavenly body waiting for us in heaven at our translation from this world to the next.

I’ve shown that the life in the seed gets a new body and the old seed body rots in the ground, proving that the resurrection has nothing to do with dead earthly bodies.

There is nothing more I can say. You either take the words as they’re written or you modify the words to squeeze them into something that fits the way you think it should be.