Jesus is God

[Hiddenthings]

Maybe people dont know what you are even getting at, its not as if people do not know this verse, its just that you go chasing them for answers and yet you offer none.

You are about trapping people, not adding to the conversation.

Because many have been taught the doctrine of the Trinity, they carry preconceived ideas about a ‘God-man’ and assume that Jesus was both fully man and fully God. So when a verse is presented to them, they try to bend Scripture to fit their theology, when in reality it should be the other way around, their theology should be shaped by the Word itself

Does this make sense?

 

[Muna]

Because many have been taught the doctrine of the Trinity, they carry preconceived ideas about a ‘God-man’ and assume that Jesus was both fully man and fully God. So when a verse is presented to them, they try to bend Scripture to fit their theology, when in reality it should be the other way around, their theology should be shaped by the Word itself

Does this make sense?

I do not use the term trinity, but I acknowledge the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Jesus was not alone, so even if someone did not believe Jesus was God with God and just a man with God you would still be left with 100% man in Jesus (as the Son) and 100% God (the Father) so I don't know how you can avoid spinning it otherwise even in that scenario regardless.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I do not use the term trinity, but I acknowledge the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Jesus was not alone, so even if someone did not believe Jesus was God with God and just a man with God you would still be left with 100% man in Jesus (as the Son) and 100% God (the Father) so I don't know how you can avoid spinning it otherwise even in that scenario regardless.

And this is the issue with that belief and the Scriptures you posted. The Bible teaches one thing and the Trinity teaches another.

 

[Muna]

And this is the issue with that belief and the Scriptures you posted. The Bible teaches one thing and the Trinity teaches another.

That went over my head

 

[Hiddenthings]

That went over my head

Can you see why many hesitate to even quote the verses you’ve shared? It may be that their full meaning isn’t fully grasped, but ultimately the doctrine of the Trinity takes precedence over the Apostles’ teaching, and this issue will not be fully resolved until the Master returns.

 

[PS95]

The scripture in Hebrews 5:7 is simple to understand when taken in the light of scripture in the Gospels. Jesus prayed to the Father to let the cup pass from Him, but being He was sent to do the Father's will, He drank of that cup.

You are using your carnal mind to try to make those scriptures mean something you prefer it to say, while ignoring literally hundreds of scriptures that point to the deity of Christ.

No, don't even try to get me to deny Jesus Christ. You are believing in a false christ who cannot save anyone. A blemished lamb could NEVER be the sacrifice.

You've got it sister.
Christadelphians mangle all of the scriptures and you just saw Hebrews 5 and also 9 right before your eyes. Welcome to the cult tactics. Slight of hand bad magic tricks with the word.

The trouble with Christadelphians is pulling verses out of context and twist the meaning in order to attempt to justify their first lie which is that Jesus had no prior existence.
It is the same tactic used by all cults and their hope is that you don't know the scriptures and don't apply context.

"He offered prayer and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death"- -- it's clear that it is the prayer in Gethesame is what Hebrews 5 refers back to. duh
and context..
note in His flesh VS Though a SON- He learned obedience in order to redeem us, Not himself.. lol. Good grief.
and yes, there is the dull of hearing.. He was perfected in His flesh although He was the son of God.

7who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

Heb 9-
"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The FOR US is evident as to the meaning lol -- with or without it there visibly- it is there in the understanding given to the hearts of all believers. It is not in the nasb and yet I always understood it that way. WHY? Because it's the simple truth.. which corresponds with all of the other scriptures. Our Redeemer is He.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.” Eph 1:7

What sad lost group of jokers this group is.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You've got it sister.
Christadelphians mangle all of the scriptures and you just saw Hebrews 5 and also 9 right before your eyes. Welcome to the cult tactics. Slight of hand bad magic tricks with the word.

The trouble with Christadelphians is pulling verses out of context and twist the meaning in order to attempt to justify their first lie which is that Jesus had no prior existence.
It is the same tactic used by all cults and their hope is that you don't know the scriptures and don't apply context.

"He offered prayer and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death"- -- it's clear that it is the prayer in Gethesame is what Hebrews 5 refers back to. duh
and context..
note in His flesh VS Though a SON- He learned obedience in order to redeem us, Not himself.. lol. Good grief.
and yes, there is the dull of hearing.. He was perfected in His flesh although He was the son of God.

7who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

Heb 9-
"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The FOR US is evident as to the meaning lol -- with or without it there visibly- it is there in the understanding given to the hearts of all believers. It is not in the nasb and yet I always understood it that way. WHY? Because it's the simple truth.. which corresponds with all of the other scriptures. Our Redeemer is He.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.” Eph 1:7

What sad lost group of jokers this group is.

How is it possible to write all that and not say anything concerning its meaning?

How did Christ "become" the author of salvation, if he was not saved himself?

Let's put your quote up and take a closer look shall we?

7who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

What type of flesh?
Why did he pray for the saving from death if you believe he did not need it?
How can your god-man be made perfect, if as you believe he is God?
And finally....
Are you dull of hearing?

@TLHKAJ - PS cannot answer these questions honestly as they would lead them to a place of discomfort...maybe you should try!

 

[PS95]

His game is to examine you and what you know and then tell you how little you know and that he is holding back greater wisdom and uses this as some sort of humiliation ritual of sorts.

Its not you.

Precisely. --I'm so glad you see that.
JWs also use that tactic. So many cults developed in the 19th century.. They are only one of them-
-The two religions are VERY similar in multiple ways other than pre-existence.

Just so you understand the mentality here of the poster, Hiddenthings --

Christadelphians deny Jesus had any existence prior to taking on flesh.. and JWs have an angel doing it.

-Christadelphians also teach only they will be saved..

-Both deny Jesus's atoning power. According to Christadelphians our sins were not laid on Jesus, but sin already existed in Him because of His human birth and His death was not an atonement for our sins. They teach that Jesus needed to save himself before he could save us.

-Both deny salvation is a gift and are works based. The don't understand that good works & obedience flow from saving faith and can not save you.
-
Both teach that Jesus was not born Christ but became the Christ at His baptism..
They deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

-They have repeatedly predicted the outbreak of Armageddon. Despite Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:36, that no one knows the day and hour of Christ's return except the Father, they persist in date setting..
They have other false predictions as well.

-They teach that the Satan is not a being. They regard the devil as simply the personification of evil.

- They have a mistaken view of the kingdom of Christ. They see it, not so much as having already come and being manifested in the --rule of God in men's hearts, but only as a visible kingdom that will take place after Christ's second coming. In their understanding Christ' is not now King and will not be until after His Second Coming.

-They teach Only they will be resurrected and will gain immortality.

Christadelphians await the day when they will rule with Christ in His kingdom and that His Kingdom will be worldwide, centered in Palestine. They believe that only Christadelphians and Jews have any hope of the resurrection.

They teach that Christianity is a false evil religious system. But don't fear-- Only they have restored it...

----------------------------------------


Listen closely peeps- I don't know how much experience with cults you have having been raised in a cult, (jws) I see things immediately that others may not. Sharing some of that with you- cults all use similar baits n tactics-

They do not tell you what they believe in detail without having to endlessly badger them and even then you still wont be sure. IOW- they are secretive.
Their M.O. is to ask you questions about your faith to PUT & KEEP you on the defensive--- There is a reason for that.. Watch the repeated questions without answering you.

They will ignore scriptures you offer in your defense- and only want to question YOU on the verse they chose-

They believe a delusion that they have GNOSIS- "secret superior knowledge" that you don't have- and therefore they are the only teachers-- you know nothing. So everything you point out is ignored or made fun of.

They attack you personally calling you demonic or the like-- BUT if you say-- "you are dense as mud" they are offended and feel "persecuted"

They have uneven scales- always.

hate letting a thread go having been answered numerous times- they must make it appear that their knowledge is so important on the topic that they will continue to post to you even after repeatedly asking them to stop notifying you and have shown them they are mistaken.

They all seek to lower Jesus - not understanding the trinity at all- they seek to make it appear as stupid with questions such as "does Jesus have a God?" or "did Jesus pray to Himself?" or point out verses having to do with the human nature of Jesus as if they counter all others which ignore or twist..

The have ONE purpose in coming to these forums- to attack Christians and teach their superior knowledge..


Beware- these cults use many tactics of deception and word games and those without a firm faith can fall prey to these false teachers. I have posted to this person merely for the sake of lurkers- but there comes a point when I will not give the false teachers their STAGE- because that is what they want. Best to do is avoid-- after warning them, as the Lord said. He warned us for good reason.

love and peace to you all in Christ.


@TLHKAJ @ProDeo @GodsGrace @HealthyShape

 

[Muna]

Can you see why many hesitate to even quote the verses you’ve shared?

No, I did not know others were hesitating to quote those verses.

It may be that their full meaning isn’t fully grasped, but ultimately the doctrine of the Trinity takes precedence over the Apostles’ teaching, and this issue will not be fully resolved until the Master returns.

But if they are that is understandable, why enter into a discussion quoting verses you do not understand? I have openly admitted a few times, eschatology is not a strong area of mine, so I am rarely in that part of the forum to take any part, why be in the way, or add to the confusion? Not to mention quite a few of them who believe they know something are horrendous to deal with and so I think its best never to ask them a question (even if I had one).

I will however, observe if someone gives good answers, that I can very much appreciate, I would prefer to surround myself with those who can, being mindful of those that are still learning and trying to be helpful.

I do agree with you on some of the trinity stuff, I was banned from a forum for Acts 2:36 because of the way I highlighted it (no kidding)

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

This verse got me called Arian (?) I have no idea of these isms and I also had the Niceene creed thrown at me, and made to answer for how I underlined it and how I could possibly agree with the Niceene creed and underline it that way. It was totally about the underlines. And no matter how much I said I did not write that scripture, they did not like the way I highlighted it for their own reasons. Which was weird, it was as if they had read it for the first time and saw an immediate conflict (but one I was not seeing)

And since that time it is become one of my favorite verses and has opened up so much more in the scriptures for me since that time.

More information than necessary but I wanted to put that out there.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Precisely. --I'm so glad you see that.
JWs also use that tactic. So many cults developed in the 19th century.. They are only one of them-
-The two religions are VERY similar in multiple ways other than pre-existence.

Just so you understand the mentality here of the poster, Hiddenthings --

Christadelphians deny Jesus had any existence prior to taking on flesh.. and JWs have an angel doing it.

This is truth

-Christadelphians also teach only they will be saved..

This is not true

-Both deny Jesus's atoning power.

This is most definitely a lie.

According to Christadelphians our sins were not laid on Jesus, but sin already existed in Him because of His human birth and His death was not an atonement for our sins.

True and untrue

They teach that Jesus needed to save himself before he could save us.

We have already proved this to be true - you even quoted the verse yourself

-Both deny salvation is a gift and are works based.

A lie.

The don't understand that good works & obedience flow from saving faith and can not save you.

Another lie

-
Both teach that Jesus was not born Christ but became the Christ at His baptism..

Again untrue

They deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

LOL - this is precisely what we believe and its you who believe he had dual natures - this got a smile!

-They have repeatedly predicted the outbreak of Armageddon. Despite Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:36, that no one knows the day and hour of Christ's return except the Father, they persist in date setting..

I'll own that one PS though this was back in the 50's - 70's and I believe fewer of these believers exist today.

They have other false predictions as well.

-They teach that the Satan is not a being. They regard the devil as simply the personification of evil.

Well, this has been 100% proven in this forum of late. @Truly can testify to that ;)

- They have a mistaken view of the kingdom of Christ. They see it, not so much as having already come and being manifested in the --rule of God in men's hearts, but only as a visible kingdom that will take place after Christ's second coming. In their understanding Christ' is not now King and will not be until after His Second Coming.

Untrue

-They teach Only they will be resurrected and will gain immortality.

Untrue

Christadelphians await the day when they will rule with Christ in His kingdom and that His Kingdom will be worldwide, centered in Palestine. They believe that only Christadelphians and Jews have any hope of the resurrection.

Again untrue

They teach that Christianity is a false evil religious system. But don't fear-- Only they have restored it...

For the most this is true

Overall, you didn't do to well PS.

 

[ElieG12]

To be made like his brethren in every respect must mean he was not made the same to begin with

And who doesn't know that before being born as a human, Jesus was a spirit being, completely different from human beings?

Yes, the Bible says that Jesus had a divine nature before being born as a human, and that qualifies him as a being superior in power to us. However, that doesn't make him equal to the God he was with before coming to earth.

Have you never read Jesus' words about God (John 20:17)? Even though he is in heaven now, he still talks about his God (Rev. 3:2, 12). How is it possible that Trinitarians don't notice these things that Jesus talks about all the time?

 

[ElieG12]

Is your God according to the OT, Jehovah? as in Isa 44:6...."Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Is Jesus' God your God (John 20:17)?

 

[Muna]

Precisely. --I'm so glad you see that.
JWs also use that tactic. So many cults developed in the 19th century.. They are only one of them-
-The two religions are VERY similar in multiple ways other than pre-existence.

Just so you understand the mentality here of the poster, Hiddenthings --

Christadelphians deny Jesus had any existence prior to taking on flesh.. and JWs have an angel doing it.

-Christadelphians also teach only they will be saved..

-Both deny Jesus's atoning power. According to Christadelphians our sins were not laid on Jesus, but sin already existed in Him because of His human birth and His death was not an atonement for our sins. They teach that Jesus needed to save himself before he could save us.

-Both deny salvation is a gift and are works based. The don't understand that good works & obedience flow from saving faith and can not save you.
-
Both teach that Jesus was not born Christ but became the Christ at His baptism..
They deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

-They have repeatedly predicted the outbreak of Armageddon. Despite Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:36, that no one knows the day and hour of Christ's return except the Father, they persist in date setting..
They have other false predictions as well.

-They teach that the Satan is not a being. They regard the devil as simply the personification of evil.

- They have a mistaken view of the kingdom of Christ. They see it, not so much as having already come and being manifested in the --rule of God in men's hearts, but only as a visible kingdom that will take place after Christ's second coming. In their understanding Christ' is not now King and will not be until after His Second Coming.

-They teach Only they will be resurrected and will gain immortality.

Christadelphians await the day when they will rule with Christ in His kingdom and that His Kingdom will be worldwide, centered in Palestine. They believe that only Christadelphians and Jews have any hope of the resurrection.

They teach that Christianity is a false evil religious system. But don't fear-- Only they have restored it...

----------------------------------------


Listen closely peeps- I don't know how much experience with cults you have having been raised in a cult, (jws) I see things immediately that others may not. Sharing some of that with you- cults all use similar baits n tactics-

They do not tell you what they believe in detail without having to endlessly badger them and even then you still wont be sure. IOW- they are secretive.
Their M.O. is to ask you questions about your faith to PUT & KEEP you on the defensive--- There is a reason for that.. Watch the repeated questions without answering you.

They will ignore scriptures you offer in your defense- and only want to question YOU on the verse they chose-

They believe a delusion that they have GNOSIS- "secret superior knowledge" that you don't have- and therefore they are the only teachers-- you know nothing. So everything you point out is ignored or made fun of.

They attack you personally calling you demonic or the like-- BUT if you say-- "you are dense as mud" they are offended and feel "persecuted"

They have uneven scales- always.

hate letting a thread go having been answered numerous times- they must make it appear that their knowledge is so important on the topic that they will continue to post to you even after repeatedly asking them to stop notifying you and have shown them they are mistaken.

They all seek to lower Jesus - not understanding the trinity at all- they seek to make it appear as stupid with questions such as "does Jesus have a God?" or "did Jesus pray to Himself?" or point out verses having to do with the human nature of Jesus as if they counter all others which ignore or twist..

The have ONE purpose in coming to these forums- to attack Christians and teach their superior knowledge..


Beware- these cults use many tactics of deception and word games and those without a firm faith can fall prey to these false teachers. I have posted to this person merely for the sake of lurkers- but there comes a point when I will not give the false teachers their STAGE- because that is what they want. Best to do is avoid-- after warning them, as the Lord said. He warned us for good reason.

love and peace to you all in Christ.


@TLHKAJ @ProDeo @GodsGrace @HealthyShape

Thanks for all of that , I did not dive into their doctrinal beliefs, so I am going on rather blind to them, I do not even know what JW's believe either (I am out of the loop here). I do try to avoid digging into every sects things, and I am kind of weird about clicking on links in order to do so. But I can agree anyone where I might with we might agree on a thing just as I might not agree with them on some other thing. You never know, because if you are correct and have presented it well, maybe someone might catch the reasons why you do by using the scriptures and come to see it in the same way, and visa versa.

God bless you peace to you in Christ as well.

 

[Muna]

And who doesn't know that before being born as a human, Jesus was a spirit being, completely different from human beings?

Yes, the Bible says that Jesus had a divine nature before being born as a human, and that qualifies him as a being superior in power to us. However, that doesn't make him equal to the God he was with before coming to earth.

Have you never read Jesus' words about God (John 20:17)? Even though he is in heaven now, he still talks about his God (Rev. 3:2, 12). How is it possible that Trinitarians don't notice these things that Jesus talks about all the time?

Yes, I have read those scriptures, we know God made Jesus Lord and Christ and put all things under him but we know that he that put those things under him is excepted of this, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus said,

John 20:17... I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And the Father calls the Son God in Psalm 46:6 as is shown us in Hebrews 1:8

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jesus has a God, as the speaker is "God THY God" here

Psalm 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

 

[Hiddenthings]

But if they are that is understandable, why enter into a discussion quoting verses you do not understand? I have openly admitted a few times, eschatology is not a strong area of mine, so I am rarely in that part of the forum to take any part, why be in the way, or add to the confusion?

Understand

Not to mention quite a few of them who believe they know something are horrendous to deal with and so I think its best never to ask them a question (even if I had one).

I will however, observe if someone gives good answers, that I can very much appreciate, I would prefer to surround myself with those who can, being mindful of those that are still learning and trying to be helpful.

I do agree with you on some of the trinity stuff, I was banned from a forum for Acts 2:36 because of the way I highlighted it (no kidding)

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Yes agree - good verse!

This verse got me called Arian (?) I have no idea of these isms and I also had the Niceene creed thrown at me, and made to answer for how I underlined it and how I could possibly agree with the Niceene creed and underline it that way. It was totally about the underlines. And no matter how much I said I did not write that scripture, they did not like the way I highlighted it for their own reasons. Which was weird, it was as if they had read it for the first time and saw an immediate conflict (but one I was not seeing)

And since that time it is become one of my favorite verses and has opened up so much more in the scriptures for me since that time.

More information than necessary but I wanted to put that out there.

In the end believers like PS need to go after the denomination because they don't have the answers to those very clear verses about Christ and the Life God gave him.

Sad really

 

[ElieG12]

Yes, I have read those scriptures, we know God made Jesus Lord and Christ and put all things under him but we know that he that put those things under him is excepted of this, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus said,

John 20:17... I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And the Father calls the Son God in Psalm 46:6 as is shown us in Hebrews 1:8

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jesus has a God, as the speaker is "God THY God" here

Psalm 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

So you know the difference between Jesus as a divine being and who is God in the unique sense.

No first-century Christian would mistake Jesus for God.

 

[Hiddenthings]

No first-century Christian would mistake Jesus for God.

That’s not correct, the doctrine of the Trinity was developed after the Apostles had passed from the scene. Pagan influences entered, and the Trinity emerged as a result of philosophical musings rather than Apostolic teaching.

 

[ElieG12]

That’s not correct...

What "is not correct" in my post?

 

[PS95]

And who doesn't know that before being born as a human, Jesus was a spirit being, completely different from human beings?

and what SPIRIT BEING would that be, Jw ELIE?

Yes, the Bible says that Jesus had a divine nature before being born as a human, and that qualifies him as a being superior in power to us. However, that doesn't make him equal to the God he was with before coming to earth.

Not equal in what way JW Elie?

Have you never read Jesus' words about God (John 20:17)? Even though he is in heaven now, he still talks about his God (Rev. 3:2, 12). How is it possible that Trinitarians don't notice these things that Jesus talks about all the time?

Yessss and He will always call Him, God, Father and Lord. you do not understand the trinity teaching at ALL which is why you say silly things just as JWs all do.
and the Father refers to His Son as God and Lord and Son.

Next, will you ask us if Jesus prayed to Himself?

 

[ElieG12]

John 1:2 This one was in the beginning with God.
(...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.
(...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.