Question for Premils (Amils welcome to answer): How many times are the dead judged?

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Spiritual Israelite

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One word determines whether these verses are future or have already happened and that word is WE.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In your belief system WE can not include Paul because that puts The Resurrection at the resurrection of Christ and not at the future second coming that you believe in.

I’ve already shown that we have a heavenly body waiting for us in heaven at our translation from this world to the next.

I’ve shown that the life in the seed gets a new body and the old seed body rots in the ground, proving that the resurrection has nothing to do with dead earthly bodies.

There is nothing more I can say. You either take the words as they’re written or you modify the words to squeeze them into something that fits the way you think it should be.
You didn't specifically address anything I said in my post. Are you afraid to do so? I showed the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and you just ignore what I said and don't address it. How can I take you seriously when you're not willing to address my points?
 

IndianaRob

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You didn't specifically address anything I said in my post. Are you afraid to do so? I showed the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and you just ignore what I said and don't address it. How can I take you seriously when you're not willing to address my points?
I am not afraid of whatsoever. You jump all over the place to prove your point like the Bible contradicts itself. You probably should talk to other people instead of me.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I am not afraid of whatsoever. You jump all over the place to prove your point like the Bible contradicts itself. You probably should talk to other people instead of me.
If you're not afraid, then why did you not address any of my points? I don't jump all over the place. There's no reason at all that you cant address anything I said in my post. If you want to know the truth about these things, then you should not just avoid those scriptures which you are not able to reconcile with your beliefs. And you should not avoid looking at the surrounding context of a verse like 1 Thessalonians 4:15, which I showed you and which you completely ignored.
 

IndianaRob

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If you're not afraid, then why did you not address any of my points? I don't jump all over the place. There's no reason at all that you cant address anything I said in my post. If you want to know the truth about these things, then you should not just avoid those scriptures which you are not able to reconcile with your beliefs. And you should not avoid looking at the surrounding context of a verse like 1 Thessalonians 4:15, which I showed you and which you completely ignored.
I can’t discuss Thessalonians 4:1 when you believe that just because your soul leaves this body then YOU are dead.

Before Christ, YOU were dead without Christ, not your earthly body. When you came to Christ YOU were raised from death to eternal life, not your earthly body. That is the resurrection. You’re dead body has nothing to do with it.

The Old Testament believers were raised from death to eternal life and translated at the resurrection because their earthly bodies were already dead.

Paul was raised from death to eternal life at the exact same time the Old Testament saints were raised but Paul’s earthly body was not dead so he wasn’t translated into the heavenly body until his earthly body died.

That’s what the “rapture” verses are about. It’s about resurrection and translation and for those that are alive after the cross, it doesn’t happen at the same time.

Ther is no such thing as the dead in Christ after the cross. When we die we’re we are alive in heaven, we are not DEAD in Christ.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I can’t discuss Thessalonians 4:1 when you believe that just because your soul leaves this body then YOU are dead.

Before Christ, YOU were dead without Christ, not your earthly body. When you came to Christ YOU were raised from death to eternal life, not your earthly body. That is the resurrection. You’re dead body has nothing to do with it.

The Old Testament believers were raised from death to eternal life and translated at the resurrection because their earthly bodies were already dead.

Paul was raised from death to eternal life at the exact same time the Old Testament saints were raised but Paul’s earthly body was not dead so he wasn’t translated into the heavenly body until his earthly body died.

That’s what the “rapture” verses are about. It’s about resurrection and translation and for those that are alive after the cross, it doesn’t happen at the same time.

Ther is no such thing as the dead in Christ after the cross. When we die we’re we are alive in heaven, we are not DEAD in Christ.
I can't make any sense out of anything you're saying. When Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians that was obviously after Jesus died on the cross and rose again and he wrote about a future event that would involve the dead in Christ being resurrected and being gathered to Christ in the air with those who are alive and remain after Jesus descends from heaven. So, you saying there's no such thing as the dead in Christ after the cross blatantly contradicts what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.
 

IndianaRob

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I can't make any sense out of anything you're saying. When Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians that was obviously after Jesus died on the cross and rose again and he wrote about a future event that would involve the dead in Christ being resurrected and being gathered to Christ in the air with those who are alive and remain after Jesus descends from heaven. So, you saying there's no such thing as the dead in Christ after the cross blatantly contradicts what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.
Paul isn’t talking about things to come; he’s explaining how the resurrection and translation go.

This would make perfect sense to you if you accepted things the way they’re written. I don’t think you realize just how much you take Scripture and bend it to fit your belief.

If you’ve been studying the Bible for years, you have to know that it is written in such a way as to hide the truth from the world and reveal it to those who diligently seek the truth, whether or not that truth lines up with what we think it should be.

When you ignore Paul telling you that he would be one of those alive and remaining at the coming of the Lord, then you have no chance of understanding this.

From what I see, every stop sign the Bible puts up to keep us from going down the wrong road, you ignore. “We that are alive and remain” is a stop sign verse, and you’re completely ignoring it.

  • It is appointed unto men once to die = stop sign to the rapture.
  • Whosoever believeth in me shall never die = stop sign for New Testament believers being the dead in Christ.
  • There be some standing here that shall not see death before the Son of Man be come = not a 2,000-year-future coming.
I could go on and on, but I think you get the point. What you believe and what I believe are two completely different things, arrived at using two completely different methods.
 

ewq1938

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Ther is no such thing as the dead in Christ after the cross. When we die we’re we are alive in heaven, we are not DEAD in Christ.

The bible refers to them as the dead in Christ so it is the correct term.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
 

Zao is life

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I don't see more than one judgment of the dead in any of these scriptures:-

THE DAY OF JUDGMENT:

"God has set A DAY on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead." (Acts 17:31).

Matthew 25:31-33, 41 & 46: THE THRONE OF CHRIST:
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios zoe]."

Daniel 12:2:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Acts 24:15:
"And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

John 5:26-29:
"For as the Father hath life [zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Revelation 20:11-12:

"I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Revelation 11:18-19: THE JUDGMENT OF THE DEAD (SEVENTH TRUMPET):
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

Revelation chapters 4 & 15: Symbols and common themes:


* Four beasts.

* Sea of glass.

* Clothed in white raiment / crowns [stephanos] of gold on their heads (Revelation 4:4) / those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God (Revelation 15:2).

* The sanctuary [G3485] of the Tabernacle [G4633] of the Testimony opened in Heaven (Revelation 15:5) / out of the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices (Revelation 4:5).

Lightnings and thunderings in the Bible:

* Receiving of the Testament: lightnings, thunderings (Exodus 20:18).
* Proceeding out of the throne in heaven: lightnings, thunderings, and voices (Revelation 4:5).

* 7th Seal (Revelation 8:5): lightnings, thunderings.
* 7th bowl of wrath: lightnings, thunderings.
* 7th Trumpet: lightnings, thunderings, the Ark of the Testament.

Revelation 14:9-11

" And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:15

"And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire."


Common themes in scripture that link the return of Christ to the New Heavens and New Earth

The first three and the last three chapters in the Bible
 

Davy

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I don't see more than one judgment of the dead in any of these scriptures:-

THE DAY OF JUDGMENT:

"God has set A DAY on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead." (Acts 17:31).

Matthew 25:31-33, 41 & 46: THE THRONE OF CHRIST:
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios zoe]."

Daniel 12:2:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Acts 24:15:
"And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

John 5:26-29:
"For as the Father hath life [zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Revelation 20:11-12:

"I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Revelation 11:18-19: THE JUDGMENT OF THE DEAD (SEVENTH TRUMPET):
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

Revelation chapters 4 & 15: Symbols and common themes:


* Four beasts.

* Sea of glass.

* Clothed in white raiment / crowns [stephanos] of gold on their heads (Revelation 4:4) / those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God (Revelation 15:2).

* The sanctuary [G3485] of the Tabernacle [G4633] of the Testimony opened in Heaven (Revelation 15:5) / out of the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices (Revelation 4:5).

Lightnings and thunderings in the Bible:

* Receiving of the Testament: lightnings, thunderings (Exodus 20:18).
* Proceeding out of the throne in heaven: lightnings, thunderings, and voices (Revelation 4:5).

* 7th Seal (Revelation 8:5): lightnings, thunderings.
* 7th bowl of wrath: lightnings, thunderings.
* 7th Trumpet: lightnings, thunderings, the Ark of the Testament.

Revelation 14:9-11

" And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:15

"And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire."


Common themes in scripture that link the return of Christ to the New Heavens and New Earth

The first three and the last three chapters in the Bible

Notice brethren, that Zao has intentionally scooted... around the Revelation 20:1-10 verses and just jumped... to the Great White Throne Judgment scripture of Rev.20:11-15 about that Judgment into the "lake of fire" called the "second death" in the previous Rev.20 verses.

Then he vainly tries to use PREVIOUS Bible Scripture that doesn't mention the Rev.20 "thousand years" reign by Christ that will occur PRIOR to that final Great White Throne Judgment to the "lake of fire" of Rev.20:11-15.

Christ gave His Book of Revelation AFTER... He had mentioned about His future judgment at His coming of separating His sheep from the goats. Likewise with His parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13, Jesus didn't mention His "thousand years" reign that will happen prior to those "tares" going into the "lake of fire" either. That does not mean mention of His "thousand years" reign in the Rev.20:1-10 Scripture isn't literal, for it will be a literal 1,000 year period that will happen PRIOR to the Final Judgment into the "lake of fire".

All Zao's scripture twisting comes from men's doctrine of Amillennialism in attempt to change what God's Word says just so they can keep their false tradition.
 

Zao is life

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Notice brethren, that Zao has intentionally scooted... around the Revelation 20:1-10 verses and just jumped... to the Great White Throne Judgment scripture of Rev.20:11-15 about that Judgment into the "lake of fire" called the "second death" in the previous Rev.20 verses.

:funlaugh2Long time since I've been young enough to scoot around on anything that has two wheels if it has no pedals (or preferably, engine).

:rolleyes: Notice brethren, that Davy has intentionally scooted around the scriptures that contradict his interpretations, and even though out of pure honesty with the scriptures, I post the scriptures that contradict the usual Premil interpretation for the timing of the judgment of the dead and ushering in of the New Heavens and New Earth, instead of thoughtful consideration of the biblical facts, Davy will falsely accuse me (or anyone who dares disagree with his own personal interpretation of scripture) of things like dishonesty and intentional "scooting", while he (intentionally?) scoots around the obvious.

Lol. I'm not even Amil. I'm simply pointing out that scripture does not point to a New Heavens and New earth following after a thousand years following the return of Christ:


Nor does scripture point to a thousand years commencing before the return of Christ:




The only person who can see stuff like you see in this thread (and in the above pages), is someone who is being honest with scripture, rather than scooting around "seeming" contradictions and forming his own theories, the way @Davy clearly does.

(Well, since @Davy 's scooting around the obvious contradictions of scripture with his interpretations the way he scoots around them, is NOT intentional, then he's blind as a bat - or it' is indeed as intentional as his false accusations of "twisting" of scripture, etc):

Then he vainly tries to use PREVIOUS Bible Scripture that doesn't mention the Rev.20 "thousand years" reign by Christ that will occur PRIOR to that final Great White Throne Judgment to the "lake of fire" of Rev.20:11-15.

Christ gave His Book of Revelation AFTER... He had mentioned about His future judgment at His coming of separating His sheep from the goats. Likewise with His parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13, Jesus didn't mention His "thousand years" reign that will happen prior to those "tares" going into the "lake of fire" either. That does not mean mention of His "thousand years" reign in the Rev.20:1-10 Scripture isn't literal, for it will be a literal 1,000 year period that will happen PRIOR to the Final Judgment into the "lake of fire".

All Zao's scripture twisting comes from men's doctrine of Amillennialism in attempt to change what God's Word says just so they can keep their false tradition.
 

Davy

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:funlaugh2Long time since I've been young enough to scoot around on anything that has two wheels if it has no pedals (or preferably, engine).

You didn't think anyone would notice HOW YOU INTENTIONALLY LEFT OUT ALL THOSE REVELATION 20:1-10 VERSES, did you?


Rev 20:1-10
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And
when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are,
and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
KJV

WOW! that "... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" is the SAME language used in those PREVIOUS Bible Scriptures you posted in your vain attempt to OMIT the literal "thousand years" reign by Jesus and His elect that will happen first!
 

Zao is life

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You didn't think anyone would notice HOW YOU INTENTIONALLY LEFT OUT ALL THOSE REVELATION 20:1-10 VERSES, did you?

Rev 20:1-10
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are,
and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
KJV

WOW! that "... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" is the SAME language used in those PREVIOUS Bible Scriptures you posted in your vain attempt to OMIT the literal "thousand years" reign by Jesus and His elect that will happen first!
Davy, everyone notices how INTENTIONALLY you do not even comment on the scriptures that contradict the belief that scripture is teaching that there are two different judgments, and that Revelation 20 "should be" (according to you) interpreted that way.

You just skip and scoot around all inconvenient truths and then say it's someone else who is doing what you do all the time.

Ever considered that Revelation 20:1-10 may be a parenthetic passage?
 
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<How many times are the dead judged?>

IMO once:
1. Believers once for rewards (Revelation 20:1-6).
2. Unbelievers once for condemnation (Revelation 20:11-15).
 
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PinSeeker

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<How many times are the dead judged?>

IMO once:
1. Believers once for rewards (Revelation 20:1-6).
2. Unbelievers once for condemnation (Revelation 20:11-15).
We will all be judged in the final Judgment of Revelation 20:11-14. Corelating it to the way Jesus depicts it in Matthew 25:31-46, the ones on Jesus's right are judged in Revelation 20:12, and the ones on Jesus's left in Revelation 20:13. Revelation 20:4-6 is a resurrection, for sure, but spiritual in nature, occurring individually over the course of God's millennium, which is now; this is how we come to share in Christ's resurrection... this is what Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:5-6 ~ we were dead in our trespasses, and God made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace we have been saved⁠ ~ and raised up... even resurrected... with Him and seated with Hm in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

But yes, one judgment... each according to what he has done (Romans 2:6). All who are in the tombs will hear His voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment (John 5:28-29). This includes even those of us in Christ. But... <smile> ...we are in Christ.

Grace and peace!
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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We will all be judged in the final Judgment of Revelation 20:11-14. Corelating it to the way Jesus depicts it in Matthew 25:31-46, the ones on Jesus's right are judged in Revelation 20:12, and the ones on Jesus's left in Revelation 20:13. Revelation 20:4-6 is a resurrection, for sure, but spiritual in nature, occurring individually over the course of God's millennium, which is now; this is how we come to share in Christ's resurrection... this is what Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:5-6 ~ we were dead in our trespasses, and God made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace we have been saved⁠ ~ and raised up... even resurrected... with Him and seated with Hm in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

But yes, one judgment... each according to what he has done (Romans 2:6). All who are in the tombs will hear His voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment (John 5:28-29). This includes even those of us in Christ. But... <smile> ...we are in Christ.
Since we normally only talk to each other on this forum when we are disagreeing, I thought I'd reply to this post and say that I agree with all of that. I hadn't thought of Revelation 20 verses 12 and 13 in the way you described before. I'll have to take a closer look at it to see if I agree with that or not, but I certainly agree that Revelation 20:11-15 is describing the same judgment as Matthew 25:31-46 which Jesus indicated will occur when He comes again with His angels. And, being an amillennialist, I certainly agree with your understanding of how someone has part in the first resurrection, also (by way of sharing in Christ's resurrection by being spiritually made alive and raised up with Christ).
 
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