No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[rwb]

In which case you'd have to conclude universal salvation to all, as Jesus said that if He were lifted up, that is, crucified, that He would draw all men to Himself. So your options are threefold. 1, that He flat out didn't mean what He said, 2, that all will be saved, or 3, that drawing initiates a process that does not always lead to salvation. Of course, #3 is the answer that fits with all the Scriptures.

Much love!

That's how we know that "all" is without distinction but NEVER without exception! All or whosoever has been ordained unto eternal life will be drawn to Christ for everlasting life through Him.

The elect of God:

Acts 13:48 (KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[bdavidc]

False teaching

This is not a false teaching, because it lines up with what the Bible says in other places. If you want to make a statement like that, show your proof from the bible.

The Bible consistently presents two truths together. It is true that God calls and man may resist. Jesus said to the Jews, “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40). The invitation was given, but they would not come. “Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost,” Stephen said (Acts 7:51). The prophet said, “Because I have called, and ye refused” (Proverbs 1:24). This is man’s responsibility—whenever someone says “no” to Christ, the blame is entirely theirs.

Yet when someone does come, the Bible is clear that all the glory goes to God. “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8–9). Jesus said, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44). If a sinner does respond, it is only because God worked in them to bring them to faith. Paul wrote, “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy” (Romans 9:16).

In other words, both truths are true. Man is accountable for his refusal, but God gets all the glory when someone believes. That’s not a contradiction, that’s the balance of Scripture. Any teaching that takes away man’s responsibility or takes away God’s glory is false, but this truth does neither. It rightly puts the blame where it belongs—on the sinner who rejects—and the praise where it belongs—on God who saves.

 

[brightfame52]

@bdavidc

This is not a false teaching,

Sure it is

 

[brightfame52]

A person dead in trespasses and sin cannot come to Christ because he does not have the will to come, nor can he hear the Word of God John 5:40; 8:43

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.3

 

[Davy]

This thread topic only shows the 'narrow-mindedness' of men's doctrines.

Being CALLED by God does NOT mean you believed just yet. A 'calling' is a call... to BELIEVE. One's FREE WILL CHOICE MUST YET BE MADE TO BELIEVE. Not all who are 'called' decide to believe on Jesus Christ.

For example, Apostle Paul, at that time of Acts 9 was called Saul, a Jew and a Pharisee, had authority to hunt down Christians and bring to Jerusalem to trial. Saul was on his way to Damascus to do that very thing, when Jesus divinely intervened and stuck Saul blind on his way to Damascus.

And Saul evidently knew Who it was, even though Saul called out as if he wasn't sure. (If God contacts someone personally, that person will know Who it is).

Yet Saul still had to make HIS CHOICE to follow, even though it's obvious Jesus removed Saul's doubt, because Paul was not just called, but also 'chosen'.

The doctrines of Calvin preaches that those called are chosen, and their coming to Christ is not up to them, which means they don't have free will to believe or not believe. And... that by fate those have been called, that it's not up to them. What Calvin actually confused was about the 'chosen', like Christ's Apostles, or like Jonah who tried to get out of his chosen duty that God gave him. Those who are 'chosen' are already owned by The Father and The Son. Those 'called' only are not owned yet, not until they actually believe. Then those called only become 'one' with Christ's elect 'chosen' ones. This Lord Jesus actually showed in the John 17 Chapter.

 

[bdavidc]

Sure it is

Show me your proof it is false from the bible.

 

[brightfame52]

Show me your proof it is false from the bible.

Start from the op and then onward.

 

[brightfame52]

@bdavidc

The Bible consistently presents two truths together. It is true that God calls and man may resist.

No the call for salvation is never resisted, and its solely to the elect. Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The called for salvation are saved in purpose before they are called 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[bdavidc]

Start from the op and then onward.

No proof there.

 

[bdavidc]

@bdavidc



No the call for salvation is never resisted, and its solely to the elect. Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The called for salvation are saved in purpose before they are called 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

You’re confusing God’s sovereign purpose with man’s responsibility to respond to that purpose. Scripture never teaches that God calls and man does not have the ability to refuse the call. The Bible is clear that God calls, but men may resist the call. That is why Jesus Himself said to the Jews, “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40). He does not say they were not called, He says they would not come. That is resistance.

Romans 8: 28–30 is not dealing with an irresistible call but with God’s eternal plan to conform believers to the image of Christ. The word “called” there speaks of the certainty of the divine purpose, not the impossibility of human rebellion. The same Paul who wrote Romans also wrote, “God… now commandeth all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30). If only the elect could respond at all, then why would God command all men everywhere?

2 Timothy 1: 9 does not mean that salvation is applied before belief, it means that God’s grace and purpose was prepared before the foundation of the world. That does not mean people are saved without faith, it means that salvation has always been God’s purpose. Scripture is clear that we are saved “by grace are ye saved through faith” (Ephesians 2:8). Faith is neither bypassed nor coerced.

If every call to salvation was irresistible, then Jesus’ parables of those who reject the invitation to the wedding feast are absurd. He said plainly, “Many are called, but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14). Many hear the call, but few respond. The chosen are those who are not forced, but those who freely answer.

The Bible clearly teaches both of these truths: God sovereignly calls, and man is responsible to respond. To deny either truth is to pervert the Scriptures.

 

[brightfame52]

No proof there.

Its there, you cant comprehend it

 

[brightfame52]

You’re confusing God’s sovereign purpose with man’s responsibility to respond to that purpose. Scripture never teaches that God calls and man does not have the ability to refuse the call. The Bible is clear that God calls, but men may resist the call. That is why Jesus Himself said to the Jews, “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40). He does not say they were not called, He says they would not come. That is resistance.

Romans 8: 28–30 is not dealing with an irresistible call but with God’s eternal plan to conform believers to the image of Christ. The word “called” there speaks of the certainty of the divine purpose, not the impossibility of human rebellion. The same Paul who wrote Romans also wrote, “God… now commandeth all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30). If only the elect could respond at all, then why would God command all men everywhere?

2 Timothy 1: 9 does not mean that salvation is applied before belief, it means that God’s grace and purpose was prepared before the foundation of the world. That does not mean people are saved without faith, it means that salvation has always been God’s purpose. Scripture is clear that we are saved “by grace are ye saved through faith” (Ephesians 2:8). Faith is neither bypassed nor coerced.

If every call to salvation was irresistible, then Jesus’ parables of those who reject the invitation to the wedding feast are absurd. He said plainly, “Many are called, but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14). Many hear the call, but few respond. The chosen are those who are not forced, but those who freely answer.

The Bible clearly teaches both of these truths: God sovereignly calls, and man is responsible to respond. To deny either truth is to pervert the Scriptures.

That Call cant be resisted Rom 8:28-30 ; 2 Tim 1:9

 

[brightfame52]

All Gods Elect and the non elect are by nature spiritually dead, dead in sin Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13. This means that all men naturally are living without spiritual life and alienated from God. Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

As such we are naturally in spiritual death Rom 8:6

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

All by nature are carnal minded, that cant be helped, even if we are very pious and religious and moral.

In this state we have no affections or motion towards God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Thats why Jesus says of man naturally Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 4

 

[brightfame52]

The scripture plainly teaches that none [by nature] will come to God in Christ Jn 5:40 cp Rom 3:11

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Scripture teaches that the unwillingness to come to God in Christ is founded in mans inability to do the same Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Notice Vs 44 states this inability is only remedied by the Fathers drawing, which is nothing short of the Power of God. The drawing power of God which imparts Spiritual life and strength/ability, changes the unwillingness to come to causing to be willing to come Ps 110:3

3 Thy people[The elect/Sheep] shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

The person now has a willing mind to come to Christ, the person has been chosen by God to approach Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Thats the drawing in Jn 6:44, its God causing by His drawing power. 5

 

[brightfame52]

A main reason why the natural man cannot believe in Christ or come to Christ in Faith is because by nature man is a unbeliever, for God has concluded all men naturally, as sinners in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is why for man to believe in Christ it takes the Power of God, God must work Faith in us, that's also called His having Mercy on a man.9

 

[nedsk]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

If it's not by free will then we aren't acting out of love for him. Love one another as I have loved you. Love requires free will otherwise its a duty or an obligation. Augustine I think it was that said, love is to will the good of the other. What is the will? Our words and our actions.

 

[brightfame52]

If it's not by free will then we aren't acting out of love for him. Love one another as I have loved you. Love requires free will otherwise its a duty or an obligation. Augustine I think it was that said, love is to will the good of the other. What is the will? Our words and our actions.

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

 

[nedsk]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

You people can't hold two ideas in your mind at the same time can you? Gods absolute but he will never use that power to force to do what you dont want to do. That doesn't mean h doesn't have absolute power. You people amaze me

 

[Behold]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Cross of Christ is always "drawing" unbelievers to faith.

It never stops.

However, its up to the person to give God their Faith in Christ.

 

[nedsk]

The Cross of Christ is always "drawing" unbelievers to faith.

It never stops.

However, its up to the person to give God their Faith in Christ.

You're getting there. So it's both the "Cross of Christ" AND the person to give God their faith. You're finally catching on. Salvation is completed by works just like James says.