Revelation 12 walk through

[Douggg]

Moreover, you present this scripture purporting a so-called "seven literal years of tribulation period", but the Scripture itself does not at all "say" that the tribulation period will be "seven years", nor that this one week in which the Covenant is confirmed (literally, made strong), is the "great tribulation period." So it's all your private interpretation of the verse, not something the verse actually says. Indeed, the verse itself destroys your interpretation because it says that in the midst of this week this abomination of desolation starts. Not at the beginning of it. So if this were seven years, then the tribulation would be 3 1/2 years, not seven. Christ identifies the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel as the time of this great tribulation.

No, I don't refer to the seven years as "the tribulation". Nor do I use the term "the tribulation".

Can you give us even one single Scripture that says that the great tribulation period lasts for 7 years?

The great tribulation will NOT last for 7 years. I have never made that claim.

The great tribulation will last 1335 days, based on Daniel 12:12.

Matthew 24:29, "the tribulation of those days" is the first 1290 days of the 1335 days.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Hi Ronald, not to worry, I don't get perturbed because another believer disagrees with me.

I do believe that the rapture could take place pre-trib (a misnomer for what is really meant as pre-70th week). But the rapture may not happen then.

The important thing is to live a life aware that the rapture which God the Father will determine exactly when. Live a life in closeness relationship with Him through Christ. God is wonderful.

I view the rapture must take place before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood (that is the Daniel 8:13 transgression of desolation act). Which would be pre-wrath in a sense.

We cannot pre-determine exactly when that act will take place, but my guess is around the 3 year mark into the 7 years. - as not long after the act, the abomination of desolation statue image will be set up on the temple mount on day 1185 of the 7 years, i.e. 1335 days before Jesus returns.


Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, hailed as the king of Israel messiah, in John 12:12-15. 4 days later he was crucified. So basically arriving and being cutoff as the same time.

Daniel 9 does not say after 69 1/2 weeks. Nor mentions the start of the messiah's ministry.

One reason to know the 70th week is still future is all of the time elements of Revelation fit within that 7 years.

Also, Ezekiel 39 gives the framework of the 7 years. Gog/Magog, then 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9), then Armageddon feast (Ezekiel 39:17-20), and Jesus Himself speaking in the text Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth.

Yes, I am very confident in my walk through's.

Ezek. 39 says nothing about a 7 year "framework" of the Great Tribulation. Nowhere in the Bible implies this. Revelation and Daniel speak of 1260 days, 1399 days, 1335 days, 42 months, and a "times times and a half of time".
No gap, Gabriel was being precise about Jesus 1st coming
You are extrapolating this ( as do all Pre-Tribbers do) from Daniel 9:24-27.

If you care to examine my view ... here it is:
Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city, ..."
(Precise timeline about Jesus 1st Coming _ ordained by God, He doesn't change His mind! > > As if something was supposed to happen and did't so the last week was delayed 2000 years? No.

"To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,"
(For the believer, Jesus did.)
"To make reconciliation for iniquity,"
(He did we have been reconciled)
"To bring in everlasting righteousness,"
(He did spiritually, though sin remains in the world.)
"To seal up vision and prophecy",
(His death and resurrection fulfilled prophecy and when He ascended into Heaven, He received the scroll with seven seals. The scroll filled with all the prophecies was complete and handed to Jesus it was sealed with seven seals. So in heaven _ after Jesus ascension_ the scroll was handed to Him _ and it is considered a done deal.)
"And to anoint the Most Holy.'
(Jesus)

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;"
(Jesus shows up after the 69 weeks, not during, but in the beginning of the 70th week.)

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;"
(After means in the 70th week)
"And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary."
(This is just an allusion to 70 AD, a parenthethical citation not within the 70 weeks timeline)
"The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined."
(Also alluding to the destruction /desolation of Jerusalem).
>>> Now back to the Messiah, whom the whole context is about!
27 "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;"
(Jesus brought the New Covenant in the 70th week)
"But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering."
(Jesus ended sacrifice and offering. He was the final sacrifice.)
"And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,"
(His torture and crucifixion was an abomination. He pronounced the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.)
"Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
(Another parenthetical citation referring to the spiritually desolate, (the Jews), who in the end times will receive the consummation - the Holy Spirt as stated in Rom.11.)

 

[Douggg]

Ezek. 39 says nothing about a 7 year "framework" of the Great Tribulation. Nowhere in the Bible implies this.

Ronald, the Great Tribulation will not be 7 years long. But 1335 days long.

The framework that Ezekiel 39 provides is for the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

The Great Tribulation will be the last 1335 days of that 7 years. All of the end times time frames fit within the 7 years following the Gog/Magog attack on Israel.

Revelation and Daniel speak of 1260 days, 1399 days, 1335 days, 42 months, and a "times times and a half of time".

No gap, Gabriel was being precise about Jesus 1st coming

Is there a gap between Jesus's first coming and Jesus's Second Coming ? Yes, there is a gap - known as the time of the gentiles.

 

[Douggg]

Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city, ..."

Ronald, have the Jews turned to Jesus and the gospel of salvation yet ? No, they have not.

That will not happen until the middle of the 70th week forthcoming.

 

[Jay Ross]

Ronald, have the Jews turned to Jesus and the gospel of salvation yet ? No, they have not.

That will not happen until the middle of the 70th week forthcoming.

After the completion of the fourth generation/age of the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers during the first and second generations/ages, upon their children and the children God will again incline His ears towards the nation of Israel also after the completion of the Gentiles trampling God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts and will begin drawing them to Himself and will plant them in His fertile field, (Echos of the Parable so the Sower) and will teach them the truth of the foundation stone that will come down out of Heaven during the time of those kings in around 20 years' time. At that time God will enter into a covenant of Peace with Israel by the removal of the wicked fallen heavenly hosts from the face of the earth for many days, who are Satan, the beast(s) and the Little Horn, after which the fallen heavenly hosts will be released for a little while to be finally dealt with and dispatched into the lake of fire, at the end of the Seventh Age.

Dougggggggg's claim that Israel will not be saved until the middle of the 70th week which is still to come is a false claim on his part which distorts the scriptures horribly and allows him to insert the Pre-trib rapture to have a space in his storyline.

 

[Davy]

I will walk through Revelation 12, explaining the verses. Follow along with your bible reading each verse as I explain the meaning thereof.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a vision John saw of Jesus being born to the woman (Israel) and Satan's attempt to have Jesus killed as soon as he was born. Which historically happened when Herod ordered all the children under the age of 2 be killed.

Verse 5 is Jesus born and caught up to God and to God's throne. Destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times, when Israel, the woman, has returned to the land, but still in unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. And for 1260 days, Israel will be fed the Word of God - by the two witnesses, of Revelation 11:3, those 1260 days.
`
Revelation 12:7-9 after the 1260 days, there will be a war in the second heaven which Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth.

Revelation 12:10 the Jews at that time finally turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Satan will have been accusing them of their unbelief for the 1260 days that the Jews will mistakenly think the Antichrist is their messiah

Revelation 12:11 the Jews will overcome all Satan's accusations by believing upon the blood of the Lamb as atonement for their sins. And the Jews will testify about Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Even though many will be killed for their testimony.

Revelation 12:12 because Satan has been cast down to earth with just a short time left to his power, them in heaven rejoice about his coming demise. But to them on earth, Satan's wrath at being cast down will be the third woe to the inhabiters of earth as said in Revelation 8:13.

Revelation 12:13 Satan will take his wrath out on Israel and begin to persecute Israel.

Revelation 12:14 The Jews in Judea will flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation statue image set up and indwelt by Satan. There in the wilderness, the Jews will be protected for the remaining time/times/half time that Satan will have left.

Revelation 12:15 Satan will make attempts to destroy the Jews in their mountains sanctuary.

Revelation 12:16 But God will supernaturally thwart all attempts by Satan to persecute the Jews who had fled into the mountains.

Revelation 12:17 Satan, not able to get to the Jews in the mountains, will persecute the remaining Jews who did not flee to the mountains right away, as Jesus told them to do in Matthew 24:15-21. Those Jews who Satan will have access to persecute, Jesus will rescue when Jesus returns to Jerusalem in Zechariah 14.

Replace your Jews with the Christian Church.

God's Word, like Paul in Romans 11, reveals that God put spiritual blindness upon the majority of Jews so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Paul then showed that 'blindness' upon the Jews won't be removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, which means until the day of Christ's future return.

This means the 'unbelieving' Jews will remain... in unbelief all the way through the coming "great tribulation", and only at the end of it when Jesus appears will their blindness be removed, and right then they will be shocked and in shame, and symbolically wish for the mountains and hills to "Fall on us", and "Cover us." (Luke 23:30).

 

[Davy]

Ronald, have the Jews turned to Jesus and the gospel of salvation yet ? No, they have not.

That will not happen until the middle of the 70th week forthcoming.

It won't happen in the middle of the 70th week either, because God's Word reveals their blindness He put upon them won't be removed until the day of Christ's future return.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, I don't refer to the seven years as "the tribulation". Nor do I use the term "the tribulation".

It makes no difference where you try to squeeze the Great Tribulation into your chart — it’s still the same counterfeit doctrine of a 7-year fantasy. Shuffle it left, shuffle it right, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s false.”

The great tribulation will NOT last for 7 years. I have never made that claim.

It doesn’t matter — your entire view of the ‘great tribulation’ is off track, no matter where you try to wedge it in. Do you really imagine it’s nothing more than a gruesome bloodbath on repeat? That’s a shallow picture at best.

The great tribulation will last 1335 days, based on Daniel 12:12.

Notice anything missing? Right — not a single word about the ‘great tribulation.’ In fact, the entire chapter never mentions it. So unless you’ve found a hidden verse the rest of us missed, you’re just inventing doctrine out of thin air.

Matthew 24:29, "the tribulation of those days" is the first 1290 days of the 1335 days.

You’re not drawing that from Scripture — you’re stuffing your own idea into it and then pretending it’s what God said. ‘The tribulation of those days’ magically becomes the first 1,290 of 1,335 days? That’s your invention, not the text. God doesn’t read it that way — and neither do I.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Quoting Matthew 24:29 doesn’t rescue your timeline. Do you actually understand what the ‘sun, moon, and stars’ imagery signifies, or are you waiting for a literal cosmic meltdown? Scripture uses that language for divine judgment, not your 1,290–1,335-day spreadsheet. Stop forcing your math onto the text.

 

[Davy]

It makes no difference where you try to squeeze the Great Tribulation into your chart — it’s still the same counterfeit doctrine of a 7-year fantasy. Shuffle it left, shuffle it right, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s false.”



It doesn’t matter — your entire view of the ‘great tribulation’ is off track, no matter where you try to wedge it in. Do you really imagine it’s nothing more than a gruesome bloodbath on repeat? That’s a shallow picture at best.


Notice anything missing? Right — not a single word about the ‘great tribulation.’ In fact, the entire chapter never mentions it. So unless you’ve found a hidden verse the rest of us missed, you’re just inventing doctrine out of thin air.




You’re not drawing that from Scripture — you’re stuffing your own idea into it and then pretending it’s what God said. ‘The tribulation of those days’ magically becomes the first 1,290 of 1,335 days? That’s your invention, not the text. God doesn’t read it that way — and neither do I.



Quoting Matthew 24:29 doesn’t rescue your timeline. Do you actually understand what the ‘sun, moon, and stars’ imagery signifies, or are you waiting for a literal cosmic meltdown? Scripture uses that language for divine judgment, not your 1,290–1,335-day spreadsheet. Stop forcing your math onto the text.

You are BOTH wrong, and not keeping to the actual written Bible Scripture. So brethren in Christ, don't listen to either one of them, because they are here to deceive us Christians.

Daniel 9 defines the symbolic 70 weeks (seventy sevens). And it is very accurately given according to historical events and future 'literal' prophetic events still yet to come.

Daniel 9:27 defines the future time of "great tribulation" with pointing to the setting up of the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel, in association with His warning Signs for the end that He gave in His Olivet discourse, and Jesus specifically... linked the time of "great tribulation" at the end of this world to that time of the setting up of that "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27 that is to occur during that symbolic "one week".

And Daniel 9:27 is specific that ONLY starting at the mid-point of that symbolic "one week" is when that "abomination of desolation" will be setup in the temple. The previous Daniel 9 verses reveal the previous 69 weeks having already been fulfilled, with that final "one week", the 70th week, still lacking fulfillment today.

This is not all that difficult to figure out by simple Bible study of the 3 Periods given for the 70 weeks in Daniel 9, and in conjunction with Daniel 11 about the "vile person" as the coming final Antichrist at the end of this world, and also the "abomination of desolation" linked with what Jesus said about it in Matthew 24 linked with the time of "great tribulation" for the end of this world.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You are BOTH wrong, and not keeping to the actual written Bible Scripture. So brethren in Christ, don't listen to either one of them, because they are here to deceive us Christians.

Funny.

Say Davy who has been refuted by the Word of God I quoted the other day.

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Part Five - Revelation 12:11-12)

Revelation 12:11 reads:

• "And they overcame him by the blood of the lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death."

The Church, the Messengers of Michael overcame Satan how? By the Blood of Christ, and by the WORD of their testimony, and they loved not their lives even unto death. ..EVEN UNTO DEATH!

Study these verses carefully and you will see that it seamlessly moves from Michael defeating Satan to Christ defeating Satan, and from Michael's messengers prevailing, to Christ's messengers prevailing. The reason is because Michael is the Christ, and He is the one who cast Satan (and his messengers) from the Kingdom therefore believers in Him prevail. The fallen messengers with satan are those who were cut off at the cross. Christ, The Son of the Living God defeated Satan and his messengers, and they both were cast out of the kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom given to another (see matthew 8:10-12 carefully). Those who Jesus said were of their father the Devil and his will they would do, are the messengers of the Dragon. And those whom Jesus referred to in matthew saying that the Children of the Kingdom would be cast out, are those who fought with Satan against Him. That is the kingdom which suffereth violence and the violent take it by force (Matthew 11:12). these are the messengers cast out with satan. They are the blinded of Israel. They are the fallen messengers of the Old Covenant who are blinded except for the remnant. This is the Spiritual battle fought at the cross. Satan fought and lost, and his house was spoiled. Christ said, "Behold your house is left unto you desolate when referring to these messengers. And as for satan their accuser, he no longer can accuse the brethren because they are no longer of his household, under the bondage of sin. Christ cast Satan out of the Kingdom of God and made it so we could be set free from captivity there. Consider:

Matthew 12:29

• or else how can one enter into a strong man's house and spoil his goods, except he first Bind the strong man? and then He will spoil his goods".

Israel did not understand that they were in bondage, in servitude to sin by being under satan's captivity. they looked at themselves as free. They understood not that the only way that they would abide in the House of God forever, is to abide in the son of God who abides forever.

John 8:32-36

• "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
• They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
• Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
• And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
• If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

When Christ bound satan so he could spoil the captivity, he cast out satan from the Kingdom of heaven and set men free. As he said, if he cast out by God, the Kingdom of God had come. Christ did cast out devils by the Spirit of God, and so the kingdom of God had indeed come unto them. And He was the one who spoiled (took by right of conquest) the property of Satan. Those goods were you and I who the accuser Satan held in bondage and as servants to sin. But note: that Jesus tells them in Matthew 12, First Satan had to be bound! For example, Satan was bound at the cross in order that Christ could spoil his house. By the cross is devils cast out and the accuser can no longer make accusation of us because of sin. For sin has been washed away in His blood. Because of the work of Christ sin has been paid for that now is come Salvation and the kingdom of our God! Without the accuser being in it as the kingdom is within us! Sin cannot condemn us anymore. No serpent can strike us anymore, nor hurt us anymore. We overcame him by the blood of the lamb. That is the marvelous symbolism here in Revelation 12:11!

Selah!

Next Revelation 12:12 says:

• "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe unto the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

The earth and sea is symbolic of the world. Just as Ships are symbolic of the Church in the world or as when Jesus said, I will make you fishers of men. The fish were men in the sea (world). Our Job as Christians is to go fishing for them. By no stretch of the imagination was God talking about literal fish or sea creatures when He said "Woe unto the inhibitors of the sea". Again, the inhabitors of the sea is a symbolic term for people of the world. The Devil is cast out of the Kingdom of heaven, and he has great wrath, and it's woe unto those messengers cast out with him to inhabit the sea/earth (world). For they have been "cut off" and will perish in the earth and in the sea. Though Satan is bound for the kingdom of Heaven's sake, for the world, he goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1st peter 5:8). 2/3 have been cut off, 1/3rd has been brought through the fire and purified. Satan knows the time is short. The wrath of satan is revealed in those cut off to inhabit the earth. Woe unto those people, for they will die in their sins. This symbolism can be seen in passages such as Matthew chapter 8 as Jesus comes upon "2" men possessed with devils and heals them (They are illustrative of the church before we are saved). And we read:

Matthew 8:29-31

• "And, behold, they cried out, saying, what have we to do with thee, Jesus, Thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
• and there was a good way off from them a herd of many swine feeding. So the Devils besought Him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
• and He said unto them, Go, and when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine; and behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters."

A careful demonstration of what happens when Satan is cast out. It's Glorious for the two men who are set free, but it's woe to those of the swine of the earth who he is allowed to go into. Swine and Dogs are symbolic of those opposed to the gospel, as in the scripture, "Cast not your pearls before swine". Woe unto these, because Satan inhabits them with wrath, and they perish in the sea. And note that the devils say to Jesus in Matthew 8:29, "Have you come to torment us before the time?" You see, they know what time it is. This is what Revelation 12:12 is illustrating when it says Satan knows that he hath but a short time, and it's woe to the inhabitors of the sea!

Selah!

(Part Six Revelation 12:13-16 coming next!)

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Part Six Revelation 12:13-16)

Revelation 12:13

• "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the Man child."

The Woman is the Israel of God, the Children of God. Before the cross, mainly blood descendants of Abraham, after the cross, the Israel of God is made up of Jews and Gentiles alike. Gentiles have been grafted into Covenant (not national) Israel). This is the Covenant Israel of God, out of whom the Man Child came. And she is persecuted by Satan. For Satan is at enmity with Covenant Israel! Satan working through men persecute the Church of Christ because he is it's adversary.

VERSE FOURTEEN

• "and the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, times, and a half, from the face of the serpent."

The wings symbolize the protection of God. The Wilderness is typifying the world (a spiritual desert) where the delivered Church spends it's journey until they reach the promised land. This wilderness is her place where the Church must first tabernacle before it enters the promised land (see the Feast of Tabernacles Study). The wings she is given symbolize the Care, Protection, and Security that God established for His Church. The woman is now protected on eagles wings "in the world" where is her place until Christ's return. This is God using symbolism to put forth many Spiritual truths. And note, it is an exact parallel with the nation Israel when she was freed from bondage to Egypt. Israel then had to go through a wilderness journey before she could enter the promised land. Likewise here in Revelation 12 this woman must spend time in the wilderness after she is delivered of the man child before she enters the Promised land. Just as the "type" or [skia] shadow which preceded her. And the Lord will bring this Woman unto Himself, just as He brought the nation Israel unto Himself. By no stretch of the imagination would we think that any of these things are coincidences. And yet there are some who try very hard to convince themselves it is not parallel, nor a type. But you would really have to be trying very hard not to see this truth illustrated here. The Wings that the Woman is given in Revelation 12 corresponds to the wings God has "always" provided for Israel to bring her securely unto Himself. For example, God said to Moses of the bringing out of Israel..

Exodus 19:4

• "Ye have seen What I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on Eagle's Wings, and brought you unto MYSELF."

This is how God always cares for His Children. When He brought Israel out of bondage, He protected her on eagle's wings. The same thing in Revelation 12 when He brought this woman, the Church, out of bondage to spiritual Egypt. He provided those same eagles wings for her protection and security in the wilderness. God isn't playing word games here, He wants us to know that Israel of old was a "type" of the Israel of God who He would deliver by the Messiah at the cross. The Woman is the bride of Christ. God gathered her in Peace and safety under his eagles' wings. Those wings symbolize His protection. She is safe! That's the wilderness journey the woman (The Israel of God) must go through. God calls the place that Christ was crucified (Rev 11:8) spiritually "Egypt" because spiritually, it is Egypt (1st Cor. 2:13). It was by "His death" at that cross that He brought the Children of Israel out of this House of Bondage. The historical deliverance of Israel from Egypt was a shadow of the true deliverance of Israel by Christ. All those cleansed by His blood, whether Jewish or Gentile have part in the promise of the New Covenant with Israel. Which is what Hebrews 2:14 is pointing out. This was Israel's deliverance from Bondage. God is giving us a marvelous picture of it.

The woman is fed by the bread or manna which is the WORD OF GOD, just as Israel of old was fed in the wilderness by the manna from heaven (the type). Christ is our manna from heaven. the time, times, and a half are a spiritual signification of the midst of the seven or week, or feast of tabernacles. Spiritually 3 and 1/2 or until 1260 days when the beast shall be loosed (this time illustrated again in rev. 11).


VERSE FIFTEEN

• "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

Note that this flood (River) comes from the mouth of Satan. In other words, it is his WORDS that he uses to try and hurt the woman. False teachers and false prophesy like a fast flowing river to deluge and carry the church away. This is Satan's mission, it has always been Satan's plan, for he is the adversary of the Church, and anything of God!


VERSE SIXTEEN

• "And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

Again, the earth and sea are the world. The world swallows up the false teachings that come out of Satan's mouth like a flood. Instead of the river of lies taking the woman away (as Satan wanted) the people of the world swallow it up. They are deceived of Satan and they come with him to make war with the Saints. Revelation 20 tells us that after Satan is loosed, he musters the nations from the four corners of the world to come up against the camp of the Saints. This is what is in view. The earth swallows the false deceiving lies of Satan, and with him go to make war with the Saints. The world becomes more wicked as Satan deceives them. Are we in that time today? The world grows more wicked by the hour it seems. The true believers (the woman) will not swallow this flood, but the people of the world do and they hasten the time of the lord's return and the consummation in the promised land.

(Part Six - Revelation 12:16-17 coming soon!)

 

[Davy]

Funny.

Say Davy who has been refuted by the Word of God I quoted the other day.

Just making friends and influencing people.

You and Doug are both wrong:
Doug - has the "great tribulation" period all wrong and outside of Bible Scripture.
And YOU, deny the future "great tribulation" period for the END of this world altogether.

So others can easily judge between me and you according to the written Word of God, and you have and Doug have left it on this matter, as with many other Bible matters, showing that you have no intention of actually staying with what The Bible as written actually teaches. So if the shoe fits, wear it.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Just making friends and influencing people.

Good luck with that!

And YOU, deny the future "great tribulation" period for the END of this world altogether.

Oh? Congratulations, you’ve just crowned yourself king of assumptions. I never taught there will be no great tribulation near the end. That blunder is all yours. Either you’re hopelessly confused or willfully blind—it’s hard to tell the difference. But honestly, I can’t say I’m surprised; careful reading has never been your strong suit, as anyone can see from your careless replies. *chuckle.

So others can easily judge between me and you according to the written Word of God,

Incorrect, only God can judge your doctrine. Remember that!

showing that you have no intention of actually staying with what The Bible as written actually teaches. So if the shoe fits, wear it.

LOL—go...get some sleep, Davy. You’re clearly running on fumes if you think you understand my position on the Great Tribulation. You don’t even know where I’m coming from, yet you act as though you’ve cracked the code. Newsflash: you haven’t.

 

[Davy]

Good luck with that!

All one has to do is simply read your post #3 where you SPECULATE that half of the Daniel 9 symbolic "one week" is about your convoluted Jewish history of Israel...

You said:

"After Christ ascends to Heaven to the throne of God, the Dragon (Satan) wants to destroy this woman, but she is given two wings of a great eagle (Symbolizing the care and protection of the Lord God) and she flies into the wilderness where she has a place prepared for her where God "feeds" and nourishes her there for 1260 days. The 1260 days is symbolical time. It equates to time, times, and a half (see verse 14). That is to say, the entire time that this congregation of the Lord has a testimony to give in the wilderness of the world. She is nourished from the face of the serpent. In other words, Satan cannot come near to harm her. He has been bound or restrained by the cross of Christ that He cannot harm the woman (the children of God) so they can go forth with the true gospel that many are saved. The Lord provides bread for the Church for the time that she is fed in the wilderness, which is symbolically typed as 1260 days. It's not literally 1260 days (3 1/2 years) but spiritually it is.​

​

This is intimately identified with when The Lord God freed Israel from bondage of Egypt and they had to spend time in the wilderness before they entered into their promised land. This woman, now representing the Church in the New Testament after the Cross, must spend time in the wilderness (Commemorated by the week of the Feast of Tabernacles) after she is freed from bondage to sin before she can enter the promised land. But God will protect her and keep her from harm. That is what the language of giving her two wings of an Eagle symbolizes. God did the same thing for Old Testament Israel as He brought them out of Egypt."​

​

You treat the 1st half of the Daniel 9:27 "one week" as a symbolic time, which it will not be. I get your association with old Israel and the Old Testament wilderness connection, but the Rev.12:6 verse is about the the first half of the Daniel 9:27 final "one week" that is yet to be fulfilled at the END of this world, thus it does... represent a LITERAL PERIOD, and is not just symbolic only. One should easily know that just by looking at the fulfillment of the events prophesied for the previous 69 weeks. Therein lay your error, you relying more on symbology than understanding that God's Word often uses symbology to represent a LITERAL EVENT. That's something that comes from following men's traditions, especially man's false Amill tradition.

Furthermore, Apostle Peter showed in 1 Peter 5:8 that Satan is NOT YET bound today, for Peter said Satan as a roaring lion still walks about seeking whom he may devour (i.e., deceive). Many have not understood Lord Jesus in John 12:31, when in John 14:30 Jesus said that after His leaving, the prince of this world cometh! Satan was NOT bound at the time of Jesus' crucifixion, that lie is only a development from men's false Amill doctrine in order to get the deceived to believe Revelation 20:1-3 already was history prior... to Christ's 2nd coming. The Rev.20:1-3 Scripture about Satan being 'bound' in his pit prison is for the day of Christ's future return, and not before.

 

[Douggg]

Doug - has the "great tribulation" period all wrong and outside of Bible Scripture.

What specifically are you saying that I am wrong about the great tribulation length and timing ?

 

[Davy]

What specifically are you saying that I am wrong about the great tribulation length and timing ?

View attachment 69380

You can't tell from even your above chart? Really, are you serious?

The AOD ("abomination of desolation", an IDOL), is not placed until the MID-Point of the 7 years. We've already had discussion over the idea of the word 'middle', or "midst" (KJV), and you ERR in trying to MOVE it to some other point than the middle of that 7 years, and it's really stupid to do that when the Daniel 9:27 verse is very clear, even in many different English Bible translations...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

Dan 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."
NKJV

Dan 9:27
27 And a strong order will be sent out against the great number for one week; and so for half of the week the offering and the meal offering will come to an end; and in its place will be an unclean thing causing fear; till the destruction which has been fixed is let loose on him who has made waste.
BBE

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fall: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and ihe desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.
Douay-Rheims

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
ESV

Dan 9:27
27 And he will make a strong covenant with the many for one week, but in half of the week he will let cease sacrifice and offering and in its place a desolating abomination comes even until the determined complete destruction is poured out on the desolator."
(from The Lexham English Bible, Fourth Edition <NL><NL>Copyright © 2010, 2012 Logos Bible Software.)

Dan 9:27
27 "'Then for one seven, he will forge many and strong alliances, but halfway through the seven he will banish worship and prayers. At the place of worship, a desecrating obscenity will be set up and remain until finally the desecrator himself is decisively destroyed.'"
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)

Dan 9:27
27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.

 

[Davy]

What specifically are you saying that I am wrong about the great tribulation length and timing ?

View attachment 69380

Moreover in your above chart, you have the 30 days and the 45 days of Daniel 12 that ONLY OCCUR AFTER Christ's future return instead placed BEFORE Christ's return. That is another one of your OBVIOUS ERRORS.

 

[Douggg]

Oh? Congratulations, you’ve just crowned yourself king of assumptions. I never taught there will be no great tribulation near the end.

Post your timeline chart that has the great tribulation on it.

 

[Douggg]

The AOD ("abomination of desolation", an IDOL), is not placed until the MID-Point of the 7 years. We've already had discussion over the idea of the word 'middle', or "midst" (KJV), and you ERR in trying to MOVE it to some other point than the middle of that 7 years, and it's really stupid to do that when the Daniel 9:27 verse is very clear, even in many different English Bible translations...

Davy, none of the translations you posted say "MID-point".

Moreover in your above chart, you have the 30 days and the 45 days of Daniel 12 that ONLY OCCUR AFTER Christ's future return instead placed BEFORE Christ's return. That is another one of your OBVIOUS ERRORS.

No, there are no 30 nor 45 days excess to the 7 years regarding the abomination of desolation that begins the great tribulation.

The abomination of desolation statue image will be destroyed the day that Jesus returns - not 30 nor 45 days later.