Death will be no more, due to no more births.

[Spiritual Israelite]

"The time is near" simply means "the time is near". "These are the last days" simply means "these are the last days".

If they wanted to say "it can happen any time", they would say "it can happen any time", not "it will happen soon". The meanings are different.

The last days continue as God pours out His Spirit on people, as long as people are calling on the name of the Lord and being saved and will continue until the day that Jesus comes again in the future and burns up and renews the heavens and the earth to usher in the new heavens and the new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13).

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jesus has not yet come to bring fire upon the heavens and the earth and scoffers are still asking "Where is the promise of his coming?", so we are still in the last days.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God is able to understand the words like "generation", "soon", "end times", "will not taste death until" and how human readers understand those.

Trying to explain all these verses away with "it is written in God's language" is a bit silly. In such a case, we could not rely on any word in the New Testament.

It's a bit silly if you try to claim that Jesus has already come when He clearly has not. As for Matthew 16:28, that has to do with Jesus's transfiguration, so that's an example of how you are taking scripture out of context.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are Preterists able to see and embrace context, and let the Bible speak for itself?

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here (namely Peter, and James, and John), which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here (namely Peter, and James, and John), which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Mar 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here (namely Peter, and James, and John), which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

While some give a good argument for Jesus speaking about Pentecost here, it seems more likely (in context) that He was talking about His transfiguration. There is nothing here that would suggest AD70, which Preterist are obsessed with.

It's not just a coincidence that His transfiguration is described right after He said some standing there would not taste death until the Son of Man coming in His kingdom or would see the kingdom of God. He gave Peter, James and John a preview or foretaste of His coming and the coming of the fullness of the kingdom of God with His transfiguration when they could see Him in all His glory as we will when He comes again in the future and we then see Him as He is (1 John 3:1-2).

This is simply alluding to the last days that Jesus ushered in.

Right. Preterists take so many scriptures out of context, I've lost count of how many at this point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those verses are not meant to be about our future, but about the original audience' near future. Titus or 70 AD or "physical" is nowhere in the text, but the timing is roughly one generation.

The 66-70AD events are our historical interpretation, because we live after these events and we see nothing more fitting.

Those verses speak of global events and not just events happening in Judea or in Jerusalem. What global event happened around 70 AD that fulfilled those verses?

Would you agree that "the end of all things" that Peter referenced as being near in 1 Peter 4:7 is described by Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-13? If so, do you try to claim that 2 Peter 3:10-13 is fulfilled?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The New Testament was written to be read by people, not to be read by God. Therefore our view of time was take into consideration, why would not be?

Whose timing did Peter indicate is what matters in relation to how long it is taking for Jesus to fulfill the promise of His second coming, ours or the Lord's?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[grafted branch]

The idea of an any moment return of Christ is known as pre-trib. That's what you see in some of these passages.

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



Christ can’t return at any moment, the falling away and man of sin being revealed has to take place first. Do you think these things have already happened?

 

[KUWN]

"The time is near" simply means "the time is near". "These are the last days" simply means "these are the last days".

If they wanted to say "it can happen any time", they would say "it can happen any time", not "it will happen soon". The meanings are different.

I am assuming you did not read my entire last post. perhaps rereading you will see how I answered this very concern. Paul never wrote a word in English, that is, Paul never wrote these words: soon, last days, time is near, quickly, shortly, etc. Translating from the NT Greek documents, there is rarely a one to one correspondence to the target language. Just like English has multiple shades of meaning for each word, so do all languages.

Let me show you an example. The Greek preposition EPI, often glossed as "upon." However, I just took a look at the number of entries in the standard lexicon and found about 30 different meanings. How do you translate a word with that many meanings? You are suggesting that it is very simple. Translators have a very time-consuming project when they try to translate certain words, like about 90% of the words (not including names or cities, etc.)

You can't always rely on a Greek dictionary to settle the meaning of a word. another example: I looked up the word "weaker" (1st Peter 3.7) and looked at what word the translator was translating. The word was ASTHENESTERW. I had a hunch that weaker was not the word that should be there. I looked up the ancient Greek historical documents and found 4 or 5 occurrences of weaker. My hunch was right on. A better translation is "more vulnerable." The wife is a more vulnerable than the husband. The mistranslation weaker implies the wife could not lift a heavier rock than her husband. But that is not the meaning. Unfortunantely these mistranslations occur throughout the Bible.

Finally, this one guy asked me what i thought about the KJV translation. He said it is the only one inspired from God (he was a KJV Only guy). He asked me again if zi read the inspired translation? I said, "no hablar ingles." I think that settles the issue.

 

[KUWN]

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



Christ can’t return at any moment, the falling away and man of sin being revealed has to take place first. Do you think these things have already happened?

Absolutely Not!

The fallen away is the Rapture, and the man of sin is identified at the signing of the 7 year contract, which begins the Tribulation. The Bride of Christ is removed before the signing of the 7 year covenant.

 

[grafted branch]

Absolutely Not!

The fallen away is the Rapture, and the man of sin is identified at the signing of the 7 year contract, which begins the Tribulation. The Bride of Christ is removed before the signing of the 7 year covenant.

Well, then once the 7 year covenant gets signed everybody will know the day of His coming because it would be exactly 7 years to the day after the covenant gets signed.

 

[WPM]

Absolutely Not!

The fallen away is the Rapture, and the man of sin is identified at the signing of the 7 year contract, which begins the Tribulation. The Bride of Christ is removed before the signing of the 7 year covenant.

How about Scripture to prove this? This that sounds like something you found in the left behind novels.

 

[KUWN]

Well, then once the 7 year covenant gets signed everybody will know the day of His coming because it would be exactly 7 years to the day after the covenant gets signed.

That is correct

 

[grafted branch]

That is correct

Ok, so let me get this straight, the rapture (for believers only) can happen at any moment and nobody knows when, while the final coming (to deal with unbelievers) is known down to the very day it’s going to happen.

I thought He came as a thief to the unbelievers but you have Him coming as a thief to the believers while the unbelievers all know when He’s coming.

 

[KUWN]

Ok, so let me get this straight, the rapture (for believers only) can happen at any moment and nobody knows when, while the final coming (to deal with unbelievers) is known down to the very day it’s going to happen.

I thought He came as a thief to the unbelievers but you have Him coming as a thief to the believers while the unbelievers all know when He’s coming.

Sorry gb, I am not sure what you are asking. The Second Coming is when all of the the OT saints are resurrected, as well as all those believers/saints in the Trib that died. There will only be believers entering the Millennium, some in their natural bodies, and from these you will still have marriage and people dying in the Millennium. I will wait to hear from you again before I say the wrong thing.

I think your second sentence above is correct. The authors don't always make a distinction between the Rapture and the second coming. At the second coming, Christ's return to earth will be observed by all people. The first coming is only in the air. I will put a contrast between the Rapture and the second coming so you can see they are completely different events.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

 

[grafted branch]

Sorry gb, I am not sure what you are asking. The Second Coming is when all of the the OT saints are resurrected, as well as all those believers/saints in the Trib that died. There will only be believers entering the Millennium, some in their natural bodies, and from these you will still have marriage and people dying in the Millennium. I will wait to hear from you again before I say the wrong thing.

I think your second sentence above is correct. The authors don't always make a distinction between the Rapture and the second coming. At the second coming, Christ's return to earth will be observed by all people. The first coming is only in the air. I will put a contrast between the Rapture and the second coming so you can see they are completely different events.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

I’m not really asking a question, I’m just pointing out that you have the rapture taking place like a thief in the night. It’s completely unknown when that event will happen (except by the Father).

At the second coming you have it as a known date, meaning that date is known after the covenant is signed. That coming isn’t like a thief.

1 Thessalonians 5:2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

 

[KUWN]

I’m not really asking a question, I’m just pointing out that you have the rapture taking place like a thief in the night. It’s completely unknown when that event will happen (except by the Father).

At the second coming you have it as a known date, meaning that date is known after the covenant is signed. That coming isn’t like a thief.

1 Thessalonians 5:2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Ok, Yes, the Rapture happens like a thief in the night (definitely not before the second coming, where there is death of millions of people). When you say Peace and safety you do not say that at the end of the Trib. There is nothing but death at the end. The AC is ruling the world and causing havoc and death to all that don't take the mark of the beast.

 

[grafted branch]

Ok, Yes, the Rapture happens like a thief in the night (definitely not before the second coming, where there is death of millions of people). When you say Peace and safety you do not say that at the end of the Trib. There is nothing but death at the end. The AC is ruling the world and causing havoc and death to all that don't take the mark of the beast.

Ok, what about 2 Peter 3:10?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Does this happen at the rapture, when He comes as a thief?

 

[Earburner]

"Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:34

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

"Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
Mt 10:23

"The time that remains is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not...For this world in its present form is passing away."
1 Cor. 7:29

..the ends of the ages have come.
1Cor 10:11

Who was manifest in these last times for you
1 Pt 1:20

The end of all things is at hand.
1 Pt 4:7

It is the last hour
1 John 2:18

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.
The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door."
Jm 5:7-9

in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son
Heb 1:2

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy...because the time is near.
Rev 1:3

We are not talking about specific hour or specific day in the first century, but the NT is clear - it had to happen soon.

In all actuality, there are three comings of the Lord.
1. Jesus came in mortal flesh.
2. He is still coming to us by His Holy Spirit.
3. He will return from heaven in His Immortality.

Q. So then, WHAT DID "happen soon"?
A. Pentecost.

 

[KUWN]

Ok, what about 2 Peter 3:10?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Does this happen at the rapture, when He comes as a thief?

Comments about 2 Pt 3.10 by J. Dwight Pentecost. Things to Come
See if this helps you understand the issues of this verse:

This passing of the present earth is anticipated in a number of passages (Matt. 24:35;
Heb. 1:10-12; Rev. 20:11).
It is held by some that this purging of the earth precedes the millennial age.
According to this view this purgation will take place at the beginning of the millennium
and will be the cause of the removal of the curse so that productivity may be restored
to the earth during that time. There are several bases on which this view rests.
(1) They hold that the “day of the Lord” (2 Pet. 3:10), in which this event is said to
take place, is a time of judgment and includes only the time from the rapture to the
institution of the millennium, with its attendant judgments. (2) Because judgment by
fire is said to be a means of the visitation of divine wrath at the second advent (Isa.
66:15, 17; Ezek. 39:6; Joel 2:1-11; 2 Thess. 1:7-10), and since this purging is by fire, it is
argued that it must be the same event. (3) Isaiah 65:17 promises a new earth, and that
in connection with the millennium, so the purging must take place after the second
advent but prior to the millennium. In reply it may be pointed out, as it has been
demonstrated previously, that
(1) the Day of the Lord includes the whole program from
451
the beginning of the tribulation period through to the new heaven and new earth after
the millennium. (2) Further, fire may be a means of divine visitation without making
every use of it necessarily come within the same event. Fire is used throughout
Scripture as a symbol of judgment and since this event is judgment upon a cursed
earth it is fitting to see the purgation by fire at the time the earth is to have every blot
of the curse removed from it. (3) And again, since the millennial earth merges with the
new heaven and new earth at the end of the age,
Isaiah may well describe the
millennial scene in view of its eternal dwelling place, the new heavens and new earth,
without stating that the new heaven and new earth is realized at the beginning of the
millennium, although anticipated from that point.
It is to be noted that Peter does not say that the Day of the Lord commences with
the dissolution of the present earth, but that within the day of the Lord this dissolution
will take place. His word is: “The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the
which [italics mine] the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements
shall melt with fervent heat…” (2 Pet. 3:10). Further, Peter states: “But the heavens and
the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto judgment
and perdition of ungodly men” (2 Pet. 3:7). In this statement he seems to relate the
dissolution of the present heaven and earth to the time of the judgment and perdition
of ungodly men, which we know from Revelation 20:11-15, takes place at the great
white throne judgment after the millennium. If it be held that this cannot refer to the
same time since John says, “from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away” (Rev.
20:11) and Peter says, “reserved unto fire against the day of judgment” (2 Pet. 3:7), it is
sufficient to say that John’s statement gives the fact that the old heaven and earth have
passed away without giving the means by which this is accomplished, while Peter gives
the means through which the dissolution takes place. There is no contradiction here. It
is thus concluded that the purging is the act of God at the end of the millennial age
after the final revolt against His authority, in which the earth, the scene of rebellion, is
judged because of its curse.
=======================================================

Also, some scholars see this burning at the end of the Millennium near the creation of the NHNE.

You will need to get several commentaries discussing this passage. I would not take a position unless
you have read at least a dozen commentaries. This passage is a little rough.

 

[HealthyShape]

In all actuality, there are three comings of the Lord.
1. Jesus came in mortal flesh.
2. He is still coming to us by His Holy Spirit.
3. He will return from heaven in His Immortality.

Q. So then, WHAT DID "happen soon"?
A. Pentecost.

Most of the verses I posted were written after Pentecost.

 

[HealthyShape]

Whose timing did Peter indicate is what matters in relation to how long it is taking for Jesus to fulfill the promise of His second coming, ours or the Lord's?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The same Peter said:

Who was manifest in these last times for you
1 Pt 1:20

The end of all things is at hand.
1 Pt 4:7

Thousand years like a day and a day like a thousand years is not literal. God's time is not slower or faster than ours by some exact number, He is eternal, outside of time.

The term "thousand" was just a symbolic big number in their days, like we say today "one in a million chance", for example - we do not mean it literally. Peter did not say that it will take literal thousand years, he just say it does not need to happen immediately - we know that the 70AD was quite on the far limit of one generation, i.e. God was "waiting" as long as He could.