(The Beast) & (The Two Witnesses) Will Be On This Earth Together For 3.5 Years (Then Cometh The End)

[WitnessX]

Judgments are illustrated by trumpets, seals, bowls.
o seven trumpets announce a scroll to be read and executed.
o seven wax seals on the rolled-up scroll are removed, scroll is read.
o seven bowls (judgments, hot oil, method of torture) are executed.

God will not be patient forever.

Indeed, He will not be patient forever..that’s really the purpose behind tribulation/great tribulation. It is His love and long suffering to wake people up, because if He came back tomorrow many more would be lost to the lake of fire that otherwise may be saved.

So a sifting of goats and sheep, wheat and chaff will take place. Nobody will be able to say they weren’t told or shown or that they didn’t know by the end of it. He truly wants all to come to the Truth, but many won’t. That is their free will.

But, you have these out of order…seals precede trumpets.

Revelation 8:1-2 (KJV) 1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

These are in ever increasing in strength until the full undiluted wrath of God is poured out, seals and trumpets don’t pour…vails/bowls do. Just as important we see wrath doesn’t begin until after the 6th seal (Rev 6:12) at Rev 6:17.

The 6th seal brings darkness and other cosmic signs in the sun, moon, and stars. This is echoed in Joel 2:31 which Peter quotes in Acts 2:20. Other passages witness to this as well such as 2 Thess 2:1-3, Isaiah 13:9-10, Zeph 1:15, 1 Thess 1:10, Matt 24:29, Luke 21:25, Mark 13:24.

Acts 2:20 (KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Joel 2:31 (KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Zephaniah 1:15 (KJV) That day [is] a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

The Day of the Lord brings wrath and darkness, which is clearly after the 6th seal:

Isaiah 13:9-10 (KJV) 9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

God literally turns out the lights on the sun, moon, stars that people worship as gods themselves with the man made myths and traditions they heap upon themselves...such as the star of remphan, saturn/chiun worship, or star constellations, moon phases, or other occult nonsense.

Amos 5:26 (KJV) But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

This is why the 6th seal brings terror and men’s hearts fail them, and they hide in the rocks and caves….they realize their mistake and folly.

Luke 21:26 (KJV) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Revelation 6:16-17 (KJV) 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

God exercises His complete dominion and sovereignty as the Creator of all things over the false gods men worship by simply turning these false gods off like a light switch. Kinda hilarious actually that God chooses to show His dominion and Sovereignty this way..the ultimate power play.

This is all in direct refute of another lie of pretrib that claims the seven year period is all wrath or that the Day of the Lord is the entire seven years so they can claim a pretrib rapture under the guise of 1 Thess 5:9, that believers are not appointed to wrath.

The 5th seal martyr of believers is another example of it not being wrath either, otherwise God would be wrathing His own people, another refute of people who falsely claim all the seals are wrath.

Jesus opening the seals is indicative of His sovereignty, not wrath.

Further, a day is never seven years in scripture:

Isaiah 34:8 (KJV) For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Ezekiel 4:6 (KJV) And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Even dispensationalists own interpretation of Daniel 9:27 and the week of years (implying a each day of the week equates to a year) disproves their own claims of the Day of the Lord being the entire seven years. They are nonsensical.

Dispensationalism is gnostic and borderline heresy claiming secret knowledge under the guise of rightly dividing…just another attempt to make believers look for another person to “teach” them what is and isn’t for them and what is for the “Jews”.

Such as Matthew being to the Jews only, when the Gospel of Matthew is the only Gospel that actually mentions the church at all:

Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 18:17 (KJV) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

It’s all very Pharisee and Romanesque in that they hid the Word of God behind their law/priests and forbid it from being translated and distributed, putting gatekeepers between men and God when Jesus tore the veil on purpose because satan and wicked men always try to stand in the way of other men’s relationship with The Great I AM. The Pharisees did it through the law in the second temple, they knew the Ark of the Covenant and the Glory Cloud wasn’t present but they kept everyone under the law anyway as a means of control.

The bottom line. Read the word for yourself, Don’t deny His name, don’t take the Mark of the beast, Don’t worship the beasts image. Don’t take other people’s word for anything, go read it yourself. I use verses so people can go read what they say (and you should be reading the before and after verses as well to understand context) we should be citing our sources so as not to deceive others and point them to the truth.

My only agenda, unlike many on the internet and including this board, is to share the truth. There are bad actors here and across all facets of churches, internets forums, and other spaces who are intentionally misleading people. Test everything against scripture.

In the your day of trouble the false teachers, like John Hagee, Lee Brainerd, David Jeremiah or the false prophets like Brandon Biggs, Catherine Krick, Joseph Z, Larry Ragland and the thousands of others won’t be there for you. But they want to sell you books , CDs, and all manner of other nonsense.

I hope and pray this is edifying for someonee, your salvation may depend on it.

Amen and a glory to the a Great I AM.

 

[WitnessX]

IMO:
Jesus does not come to earth for the rapture, no need for that. Rather Jesus descends from heaven to a cloud and draws believers to himself, just before the bowl judgments, so that believers may avoid the horrific bowl judgments that follow.

o. "The Lord Himself will descend from heaven to a cloud, and we will be caught up." (1Thessalonians 4:16-18).

o. "And the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle on over the earth, and the earth was reaped." (Revelation 14:14)

Look, look, it's in the BOOK!

There is no secret coming, nor is there any halfway coming. We are explicitly warned against such a secret coming and not to be deceived:

Matthew 24:4-5 (KJV) 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

1 Chronicles 28:11 (KJV) Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,

Matthew 24:26 (KJV) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.

No coindence that the first temple had inner parlours and Jesus then warns don’t believe them when they say He is in the inner chambers. They will claim the AC is God in the false third temple.

It’s important to understand Jesus returns only once, not a third or halfway. Your claims are false. If you are a believer and one of Christ Jesus’s own and you are still in your fleshly body…then Jesus hasn’t returned. Because when He returns the corruptible puts on the incorruptible. So do not be deceived.

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26 (KJV) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 21:27 (KJV) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Titus 2:13 (KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Acts 1:11 (KJV) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

His second coming will be a worldwide, every eye shall see, even those whom pierced Him, with Great Power and Glory.

When Jesus tells you things in His word, like how He returns, you should believe Him. This isn’t difficult or hidden. Your flesh (satan) is lying to you about any pretribulation rapture, so are the men pushing that lie.

When Jesus says many will be offended and fall away in Matt 24:10 its largely because they think they won’t be here for the great tribulation…they will fall away like the second and third seed in the parable of the sower in Luke 8:13-14 who couldn’t endure persecution or traded their salvation for the riches of this world and just like 1 Tim 4 says:

1 Timothy 4:1 (KJV) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Pretribulation rapture is a doctrine of the devil, made up nonsense, and not a single scripture supports that doctrine.

 

[William Barton]

<God literally turns out the lights on the sun, moon, stars>

The moon has no light of its own.

<Jesus opening the seals is indicative of His sovereignty, not wrath.>

The seals are judgments.

Further, a day is never seven years in scripture>

Time is the interval in which action in the universe occurs. God created the universe, hence God transcends time.

There is no secret coming, nor is there any halfway coming. We are explicitly warned against such a secret coming and not to be deceived:

The rapture is noted in the following places:
o John 14:2-3
o 1Corinthians 15:51-53
o 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
o. Revelation 11:12
o. Revelation 14:16
The purpose is to remove believers before the Bowl judgments occur.

The second coming is noted in Revelation 19:11-21.

It's in the Book.

 

[Douggg]

Pretribulation rapture is a doctrine of the devil, made up nonsense, and not a single scripture supports that doctrine.

If the resurrection/rapture event did take place pretribulation (a misnomer for pre-70th week) do you think you would be taken - since you are so outspoken against the pretribulation rapture timing ?

 

[William Barton]

There is no secret coming, nor is there any halfway coming. We are explicitly warned against such a secret coming and not to be deceived:

Matthew 24:4-5 (KJV) 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

1 Chronicles 28:11 (KJV) Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,

Matthew 24:26 (KJV) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.

No coindence that the first temple had inner parlours and Jesus then warns don’t believe them when they say He is in the inner chambers. They will claim the AC is God in the false third temple.

It’s important to understand Jesus returns only once, not a third or halfway. Your claims are false. If you are a believer and one of Christ Jesus’s own and you are still in your fleshly body…then Jesus hasn’t returned. Because when He returns the corruptible puts on the incorruptible. So do not be deceived.

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26 (KJV) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 21:27 (KJV) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Titus 2:13 (KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Acts 1:11 (KJV) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

His second coming will be a worldwide, every eye shall see, even those whom pierced Him, with Great Power and Glory.

When Jesus tells you things in His word, like how He returns, you should believe Him. This isn’t difficult or hidden. Your flesh (satan) is lying to you about any pretribulation rapture, so are the men pushing that lie.

When Jesus says many will be offended and fall away in Matt 24:10 its largely because they think they won’t be here for the great tribulation…they will fall away like the second and third seed in the parable of the sower in Luke 8:13-14 who couldn’t endure persecution or traded their salvation for the riches of this world and just like 1 Tim 4 says:

1 Timothy 4:1 (KJV) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Pretribulation rapture is a doctrine of the devil, made up nonsense, and not a single scripture supports that doctrine.

IM0:
In this context "pre-tribulation" rapture indicates "pre--great tribulation rapture."

"Great tribulation" is noted by Jesus in Matthew 24:21:

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall."

"World" in Matthew 24:21 is Greek κοσμος (kosmos) = "world order" (Oxford Greek Dictionary). There was no concept of planet earth in Biblical times.

"Every eye shall see him" refers to the return of Jesus from the sky with his angels (Matthew 24:30-31).

 

[Davy]

If the resurrection/rapture event did take place pretribulation (a misnomer for pre-70th week) do you think you would be taken - since you are so outspoken against the pretribulation rapture timing ?

To properly answer that, one must first understand what Jesus meant by being 'taken' per the end of Luke 17. Being taken there is NOT to Him. It's means to be like a dead "carcase" taken to wheresoever the fowls are gathered, which is about Satan's host.

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

A carcase is a dead body.

Luke 17:36-37
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

Those in Christ Jesus want to be the ones LEFT, and not "taken" like a dead "carcase".

The Pre-trib Rapture School has LIED about that Luke 17 Scripture also, depending on their followers not ever looking up what Lord Jesus actually said in that Luke 17:37 and Matthew 24:28 Scripture.

 

[Douggg]

To properly answer that, one must first understand what Jesus meant by being 'taken' per the end of Luke 17. Being taken there is NOT to Him. It's means to be like a dead "carcase" taken to wheresoever the fowls are gathered, which is about Satan's host.

I was not referring to nor quoting from Luke 17, in my use of the word taken. I think my question was clearly worded.

Davy, what is your resurrection/rapture timing view ?

 

[Davy]

Yes, I did get the order wrong, should be scrolls, seals, trumpets

The rapture is noted in the following places:
o John 14:2-3

The "Father's house" Lord Jesus mentioned is about the abodes of Christ's priests in the future Millennial temple detailed in Ezekiel 40 thru 47, which will be ON EARTH when Jesus returns with His faithful Church.

But the Pre-trib Rapture School instead wrongly teaches those abodes ("mansions") are not on earth but in Heaven with the raptured Church. Christ does not take His Church to Heaven at His coming. His Church only meets Him and the resurrected saints in the "air" that He brings with Him on their way to the Mount of Olives on earth per 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 and Zechariah 14:1-5.

o 1Corinthians 15:51-53

Paul revealed that event of when all are "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye" happens on the "last trump", meaning the last 7th Trumpet. That 7th trumpet happens on the last day of this present world with Jesus' only future time of return, which is His 2nd coming. There is no secret coming prior to the trib like the Pre-trib Rapture School wrongly teaches.

o 1Thessalonians 4:15-17

The 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 Scripture is about the asleep saints that have already died in Christ being resurrected on the day of Jesus' coming, and He brings them with Him from Heaven on His descent to this earth.

Then the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 verse is about those us still alive on earth on that day that will be "caught up" to Jesus in the "air" with Him and with those resurrected saints He brings, and we ALL go with Jesus to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, ON EARTH to begin His "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 over ALL nations and peoples. What some call the 'rapture' is only this event of the alive saints being "caught up". The word rapture comes from a Latin version for the Greek word harpazo ("caught up"), which means to seize.

o. Revelation 11:12

God's "two witnesses" being raised from the dead on that day happens within the same hour as the 3rd last Woe which describes Jesus' taking over all kingdoms of this world on the 7th Trumpet. That will only happen on the very LAST DAY of this present world.

So that is another lie the Pre-trib Rapture School has duped its followers with, depending on their followers not actually checking out what the Scriptures say. And the lie by Pre-trib is easy to figure out, simply because when Jesus takes over all the kingdoms of this world on the last 7th Trumpet, there is no way the timing of that can be prior... to the tribulation, because the time of "great tribulation" is shown in Scripture to be the time when the Antichrist will be in power over all peoples and nations on earth per Revelation 13:4-8.

o. Revelation 14:16
The purpose is to remove believers before the Bowl judgments occur.

That verse is about the last day of this world when Jesus comes, and the harvest happens. One must concentrate on the EVENTS given in the seals, trumpets, and vials, and not be deceived with thinking everything happens in the order that John was given the visions and wrote them down. Jesus comes on the 6th-7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial.

The second coming is noted in Revelation 19:11-21.

It's in the Book.

And that is the ONLY future coming by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to gather His faithful Church.

 

[Davy]

I was not referring to nor quoting from Luke 17, in my use of the word taken. I think my question was clearly worded.

Davy, what is your resurrection/rapture timing view ?

But you did... use "taken" in that sense I showed per your statement, "... do you think you would be taken?", which is a reference to the Luke 17 "taken". I've already pointed out in other of your posts how you try to hide that you follow a rapture prior to the tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

But you did... use "taken" in that sense I showed per your statement, "... do you think you would be taken?", which is a reference to the Luke 17 "taken". I've already pointed out in other of your posts how you try to hide that you follow a rapture prior to the tribulation.

No, I did not use taken in the sense taken is used in Luke 17. I used taken as in caught up, raptured, to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[ewq1938]

If the resurrection/rapture event did take place pretribulation (a misnomer for pre-70th week) do you think you would be taken - since you are so outspoken against the pretribulation rapture timing ?

No human has the ability to choose to be raptured or not as long as they remain faithful to Christ. Those who are alive and remain shall be taken.

The main issue is a false christ is coming and IF there is a false resurrection and false rapture as part of the endtimes deception, those are things to avoid and not take part in. O think a great amount of people have no real clue how bad the deception will be.

 

[Douggg]

The main issue is a false christ is coming and IF there is a false resurrection and false rapture as part of the endtimes deception, those are things to avoid and not take part in. O think a great amount of people have no real clue how bad the deception will be.

The bible does not say anything about there being a false resurrection/rapture.

How can any Christian be involved in a false rapture ?

 

[Douggg]

@WitnessX

If the resurrection/rapture event did take place pretribulation (a misnomer for pre-70th week) do you think you would partake in it - since you are so outspoken against the pretribulation rapture timing ?

 

[Davy]

No, I did not use taken in the sense taken is used in Luke 17. I used taken as in caught up, raptured, to meet the Lord in the air.

Yes you did, because in your Post #104 to @WitnessX you were referring to a Pre-trib Rapture. And you gave it in a derogatory sense to WitnessX because of how you claimed he was so "outspoken" against a pre-trib rapture.

Man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches the "taken" idea of Luke 17 means one who is taken by Christ PRIOR to the tribulation. But that "taken" as meant by Lord Jesus when His disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?" is about being taken where the fowls are gathered to eat on a dead carcase. To say it bluntly, it means being deceived to the coming false-Messiah in place of Jesus Christ, and thus being 'taken', and snared, like God warned in Isaiah 8...

Isa 8:13-17
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts Himself; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.

14 And He shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among My disciples.

17 And I will wait upon the LORD, That hideth His face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for Him.
KJV


I'd say you've probably never read that above Isaiah 8 Scripture which points to how some have been deceived, and more will be deceived at the End of this world, Christ having become a Rock of offense to the deceived and thus will stumble to worship the coming false-Messiah in place of Jesus Christ, while thinking that false one is Lord Jesus! And notice in the above Isaiah 8:14 verse, that stumbling was and will be again not just for the blinded Jews that Apostle Paul mentioned in Romans 11, but also for BOTH HOUSES OF ISRAEL, meaning the lost ten tribes of Israel also, which The Gospel went to along with the Gentiles.

 

[ewq1938]

The bible does not say anything about there being a false resurrection/rapture.

If there is a false Christ, there can be false other things. The devil counterfeits.

How can any Christian be involved in a false rapture ?

By being deceived.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

[Douggg]

Man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches the "taken" idea of Luke 17 means one who is taken by Christ PRIOR to the tribulation. But that "taken" as meant by Lord Jesus when His disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?" is about being taken where the fowls are gathered to eat on a dead carcase. To say it bluntly, it means being deceived to the coming false-Messiah in place of Jesus Christ, and thus being 'taken', and snared, like God warned in Isaiah 8...

You don't understand what Luke 17:33-37 is talking about.

It is talking about the day when abomination of desolation is set-up on the temple mount. In Matthew 24:15-21, Jesus said that when them in Judaea see the a.o.d on the temple mount, they should flee to the mountains right away for safety, not to delay for any reason.

Now look at Luke 17:33 says...

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

.... if people in Judaea try to maintain their lifestyle, instead of fleeing, they are going are going to be subject to dying.

Dying when the false prophet starts rounding people up to drag them to the temple mount to force them to worship the abomination statue image - which if they refuse, they will be put to death.

That is what verses 34-37 is talking about.

 

[Douggg]

By being deceived.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

If they fall away - they are no longer a Christian.

How can the rapture, the sudden disappearance of Christians, be faked ?

 

[WitnessX]

IM0:
In this context "pre-tribulation" rapture indicates "pre--great tribulation rapture."

"Great tribulation" is noted by Jesus in Matthew 24:21:

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall."

"World" in Matthew 24:21 is Greek κοσμος (kosmos) = "world order" (Oxford Greek Dictionary). There was no concept of planet earth in Biblical times.

"Every eye shall see him" refers to the return of Jesus from the sky with his angels (Matthew 24:30-31).

You’ve been thoroughly rebutted. I’ve provided clear and precise scriptures to the timing and manner of a Christ Jesus’s one and only second return.

 

[WitnessX]

If the resurrection/rapture event did take place pretribulation (a misnomer for pre-70th week) do you think you would be taken - since you are so outspoken against the pretribulation rapture timing ?

It doesn’t take place pretribulation so your hypothetical is a non starter.

False Teachers will be held to account if that’s what you’re getting at, including me if I do so. However, I’m 100% confident in my resurrection/rapture doctrine and can back it all up with scripture and I am prepared to stand before I AM and take account.

What does matter is believers need to read and understand for themselves when the resurrection and catching up take place so they are not deceived and are spiritually prepared. Stop listening to people like Jack Hibbs who to appeal to their flesh. Pretribbers are expecting a 5k race when in reality it’s a 100k race.

Pre-tribulation resurrection/rapture doctrine produces spiritual apathy first because they are assured of escapism and it will be a stumbling block of offense when it doesn’t happen.

So the question you should be asking is what will YOU do when it becomes crystal clear that there is no pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection? Or maybe they will claim there was and you are still here?

The Word tells us to endure, overcome, abide in the Faith no matter what…even unto our fleshly death. Don’t deny His name, Don’t take the Mark, Don’t Worship the Image of the beast as there is no coming back from that.

One final doctrinal message:

Paul says twice in 1 Thess 4:15-16 that the dead precede those who are alive. That means the resurrection of the dead in Christ has to happen before those who are alive are caught up. So the resurrection has to happen BEFORE the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 (KJV) 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This leads us to 1 Cor 15:23 of Paul telling us when the resurrection happens:

1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Then we can further confirm that who is actually resurrected in the FIRST resurrection:

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The 5th seal martyrs are cleary part of the first resurrection, they are part of the group classified as “they that are Christs” in 1 Cor 15:23 and the “Dead in Christ” in 1 Thess 4:16.

They were beheaded for the witness (their testimony and not denying His name), didn’t take the mark of the beast, nor worshipped its image. This is clear POST great tribulation language just as scripture says.

 

[WitnessX]

That's the two prophets, not the two witnesses which are defined as two olives trees AND two candlesticks and those are churches. Rev 11 clearly describes two people who are killed and lay dead in the street, not two persons and two churches which would be groups of people.

Rev 11 starts about the two witnesses then moves to part of them, the two olive trees/prophets.

I’m going to concede that you are likely correct and we are maybe talking past each other on the meaning here.

I do believe in two prophets who will stand in opposition to the AC and false prophet in Jerusalem just as the scriptures state during the great tribulation.

I also believe there are two groups of witnesses in the latter days beyond these two prophets. These groups make up the 144k.

Though they are not literal virgins, they are spiritual virgins, having never worshipped false gods, follow Jesus wheresoever He may go and they are called jews in line with Romans 2:29.

Romans 2:29 (KJV) But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Peace and Blessings.