Christians submit to Him. Rebels choose to paddle their own canoe and fulfil their own plan.
The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics - see the evidence
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You are full of nonsense. There is no reasoning with you. Embrace your heresy and see where it takes you.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
If you want to "laugh" at me, I'm not interested in conversing with you. My interest is in a mature conversation. Here is an example of others who share a deeper look at these questions....Thanks for the guffaws.
Was 1 Peter Written to Jews or Gentiles? Why the Answer Matters More Than You Might Think
The opening line of 1 Peter identifies it as a letter from “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ: To those chosen, living as exiles dispersed abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bit…
www.derekdemars.com
The opening line of 1 Peter identifies it as a letter from “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ: To those chosen, living as exiles dispersed abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia…” (1:1, CSB).
At first blush, the wording suggests that Peter is addressing ethnically Jewish followers of Jesus. He calls them the “chosen” — Israel was God’s chosen nation in the Old Testament. He refers to them as “exiles” — the Jewish people had been exiled from their homeland by the Babylonians in 586 B.C.E. And when he says they are “dispersed abroad,” the Greek term he uses is “diasporas,” a term used to refer to the scattering of the Jewish people (from which we get the phrase “Diaspora Jews”).
And yet, there are some other verses in 1 Peter that seem to suggest the letter was intended for Gentile (non-Jewish) Christians — leading to much debate among commentators....
Scholars have long been divided over the question of 1 Peter’s intended audience, but it seems the majority of classical interpreters took the phrase “exiles dispersed abroad” at face-value, seeing a Jewish audience to be in view...
It turns out that if we take 1 Peter as addressing a Gentile audience, then the epistle becomes one of the strongest supports for the theological idea that the church has replaced Israel as the people of God. This concept is also referred to as “replacement theology” or “supersessionism” (i.e. the church supersedes Israel).
In 1 Peter 2:9, the readers are said to be “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his possession” — phrases pulled right out of the Hebrew Scriptures as descriptors of the nation of Israel. If Peter is applying this imagery to Gentiles, then as Scot McKnight claims, “There is no passage in the New Testament that more explicitly associates the Old Testament terms for Israel with the New Testament church than this one.” [2]...
So Peter commanded all Gentiles to vacate the premises whenever his letter was read, because his letter was only for Jews.If you want to "laugh" at me, I'm not interested in conversing with you. My interest is in a mature conversation. Here is an example of others who share a deeper look at these questions....
Was 1 Peter Written to Jews or Gentiles? Why the Answer Matters More Than You Might Think
The opening line of 1 Peter identifies it as a letter from “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ: To those chosen, living as exiles dispersed abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bit…
The opening line of 1 Peter identifies it as a letter from “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ: To those chosen, living as exiles dispersed abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia…” (1:1, CSB).
At first blush, the wording suggests that Peter is addressing ethnically Jewish followers of Jesus. He calls them the “chosen” — Israel was God’s chosen nation in the Old Testament. He refers to them as “exiles” — the Jewish people had been exiled from their homeland by the Babylonians in 586 B.C.E. And when he says they are “dispersed abroad,” the Greek term he uses is “diasporas,” a term used to refer to the scattering of the Jewish people (from which we get the phrase “Diaspora Jews”).
And yet, there are some other verses in 1 Peter that seem to suggest the letter was intended for Gentile (non-Jewish) Christians — leading to much debate among commentators....
Scholars have long been divided over the question of 1 Peter’s intended audience, but it seems the majority of classical interpreters took the phrase “exiles dispersed abroad” at face-value, seeing a Jewish audience to be in view...
It turns out that if we take 1 Peter as addressing a Gentile audience, then the epistle becomes one of the strongest supports for the theological idea that the church has replaced Israel as the people of God. This concept is also referred to as “replacement theology” or “supersessionism” (i.e. the church supersedes Israel).
In 1 Peter 2:9, the readers are said to be “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his possession” — phrases pulled right out of the Hebrew Scriptures as descriptors of the nation of Israel. If Peter is applying this imagery to Gentiles, then as Scot McKnight claims, “There is no passage in the New Testament that more explicitly associates the Old Testament terms for Israel with the New Testament church than this one.” [2]...
I can't seem to find that verse. Can you help?
1 Peter 1:1
3927 [e]
parepidēmois
παρεπιδήμοις
sojourners
Adj-DMP
"in the N. T. metaphorically, in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth: so of Christians, 1 Peter 1:1"
Christians, i.e. Jew and Gentile believers, i.e. Christ's Church
1 Peter 2
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Refers to Gentiles within Christ's Church.
Your attempt to judaize Peter's epistle is risible nonsense.
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You were laughing at *me.* I wished to point out that you were laughing not just at me but at others who sincerely pursued the truth on this matter. I'm done with you.So Peter commanded all Gentiles to vacate the premises whenever his letter was read, because his letter was only for Jews.
I can't seem to find that verse. Can you help?
1 Peter 1:1
3927 [e]
parepidēmois
παρεπιδήμοις
sojourners
Adj-DMP
"in the N. T. metaphorically, in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth: so of Christians, 1 Peter 1:1"
Christians, i.e. Jew and Gentile believers, i.e. Christ's Church
1 Peter 2
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Refers to Gentiles within Christ's Church.
Your attempt to judaize Peter's epistle is risible nonsense.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
And that was around 95AD, which means all preterists have it wrong.
Sure they do, when the cannot accept the literal meaning, when it does notnfit into their scenario, they press the symbolic default button and smile, like you do.
No they weren't. They could not see or experience any of the signs we see today because they were just not there. And I can list them starting with 1948, but you would deny them.
The main one: Jesus said the gospel would be preached to every nation - AND THEN THE END WOULD COME. That reality was not apparent in any other generation. It just about has been fulfilled in ours. That's proof - no other generation could realistically discern this sign or the many inherent signs in any other generation since 95AD.
Can you demonstrate how is 1948 supposed to be soon after 95 AD?
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1
"God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon."
Rev 22:6
"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near."
Rev 22:10
"Preterists have it wrong"... Well, not completely, but yes, generally, I agree with you regarding preterism. And I think WPM does, too, which was what I responded to originally addressed you here in this thread.
I mean, this particular thing is not worth arguing about, really, but no, they don't. They acknowledge that, yes, literal things are symbolized by... objects, persons, events, etc.. in the text. For anyone to assert that amillennial Christians really understand the things we're talking about here in John's Revelation in any less literally than do premillennial Christians is just... Well, it's an invalid assertion. All the symbolism and imagery used in John's Revelation are in fact real things... have very literal manifestations.
They were. The visions that he was relating were just as relevant and prescient to his original readers as they are to us today. Thus his statement at the outset of Revelation: "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near" (Revelation 1:3).
Ugh. <smile> "Starting with 1948"... See directly above. Ronald, when Paul wrote, in Romans 11:25-26, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in... in this way all Israel will be saved," do you somehow think he was talking about something that wouldn't happen until 1948? Or in 1948 specifically? Or maybe beginning in 1948?
Right, and do you not believe that has been happening since the events of Acts 1 and 2? Jesus did commission His disciples (and us, of course) to "(g)o therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that (He has) commanded (us)"...?
Hmmm... What do you mean by "apparent?" No need to answer that, really; I would argue that it was absolutely apparent to them ~ and just as apparent to them as it is to us ~ because He told them. and they believed what He said (which is just as true of you and me).
That's very possible, even from a human perspective.
Yeah, disagree. the "inherent signs" have been happening ever since then, and there are still more manifestations of these "inherent signs" to come. During God's millennium. <smile> I say... and I have said this many times, though maybe not to you... that many of the things we read about in John's Revelation we should understand in a one-to-many relationship rather than a one-to-one relationship. But back to Israel itself ~ God's Israel ~ It is still true that "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in... in this way all Israel will be saved." But at some point, this partial hardening will be completely removed and the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in ~ and this is all referring to God's elect ~ and then yes, then the end will come, certainly.
Grace and peace to you, Ronald.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Most prophecies concerning the regathering of Israel our OT. But here's one. Jerusalem was trodden down by Gentiles UNTIL 1967, when it was recaptured.
“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Luke 21:24
Israel was scattered for almost 18 centuries, but were brought back to their home once again. “but – As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them. For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers.” Jer. 16:15
“Say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD, - Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land.” Ezek.37:21 The Jewish nation became a state in 1948/49. This gathering of Israel is significant. Many scholars agree that this is when the clock started to tick, a sign that this would be the last generation that would see the end of the ages, the Gentile nations and the Second Coming.
His Second Coming will be as the Lion from the Tribe of Judah - in judgment against all His foes. What does that entail? A Great Tribulation period of 3 1/2 years will destroy the world systems, false religions, philosophies and more than half the population through cataclysms: wars, famine, pestilence, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, hail and fire from the LORD.
Let’s talk about the wars. “And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.” Zech 12:3
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zech. 12:9, 10
In Zech. 14, The day of the Lord is described.
1. Spoils are divided - therefore not destroyed. Which brings to mind Jesus words: the meek shall inherit the earth.
2. God gathers nations against Jerusalem.
3. The city is taken.
4. "The remnant of the people shall not be cut off".
5. The Lord fights against those nations. His feet stand on the Mount of Olives! The mountain splits.
6. Probably nuclear war (vs. 12)
7. Light will be diminished in those days.
8. Living water will flow out of Jerusalem (after they experiencing waters of death, poisoned during the GT). Waters turn to blood, 1/3 of the fish died. So now life comes back.
“For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zech.” 14:2-4
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Rev. 1:1-4 is a specific message to the Seven Churches that currently existed at that time. Chapters 2 and 3 address their issues, His rebuke a d repe tance that must soon take place. "His servants" were living! This wasn't a message to us, though these churches can be seen as templates/ church types throughout the Church-Age. They were specific problems in specific churches that soon needed to be dealt with. Jesus actually finalizes his.message to them in Rev. 3:19-22.
>>>Rev. 4 starts a whole new vision. A heavenly door is opened to John and he travels to a different time frame with numerous events within 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls that have absolutely nothing to do with the first 3 chapters . Capisce?
The "soon" time frame is in the beginning and in the end of the whole book. You demonstrated no reason why to ascribe it just to the chapters 2 and 3.
So far it seems that you do it just because you want to.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Rom. 11 is yet to be fulfilled. A remnant Jewish population will be saved when Jesus comes. 1/3 is a fraction mentioned and there are some 15 million Jews. The 144k are part of them.
The end has not happened. The gospel was not preached to every nation until just recently. Only just recently has this become a reality. Likely even every tribe has been reached. Obviously not every person has heard - that would be impossible since there are 385k births/ day >>>140 million/yr
Hmmm... If one understands correctly who God's Israel really has always been and is and will be, then all these things can be properly understood. God has been bringing His Israel ~ which Paul defines in Romans 2:28-29, saying, "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter... his praise is not from man but from God" ~ to completion from the days of Adam ~ after the Fall, of course ~ up to now... as illustrated well by Paul in Romans 9-11 and in Ephesians 1-2. Abraham himself knew this, as "he was looking forward (in faith) to the city that has foundations, whose Designer and Builder is God" (Hebrews 11:10). We ~ we who have been called, Jew and Gentile, who are in Christ ~ are that city, and the Architect and Builder is God Himself. And He will bring it to completion at the day of Christ.
Grace and peace to all.
Grace and peace to all.
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