26 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

So true. If you were a Premil, would you not? I know I would.

If I was a Premil and saw the arguments that you and I are making, I would become an Amil. I know that is true because that is exactly what happened in 2006 when I saw Amils like you, Shirley and @DavidTaylor making irrefutable arguments in favor of Amil on the old Bible Forums site.

 

[WPM]

If I was a Premil and saw the arguments that you and I are making, I would become an Amil. I know that is true because that is exactly what happened in 2006 when I saw Amils like you, Shirley and @DavidTaylor making irrefutable arguments in favor of Amil on the old Bible Forums site.

Those who are open, have eyes to see, and are zealous to submit to the explicit repeated teaching of that Word of God, should embrace Amil.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those who are open, have eyes to see, and are zealous to submit to the explicit repeated teaching of that Word of God, should embrace Amil.

Agree. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be many people like that on this forum. At least, not any of the active posters. Hopefully, some lurkers are learning something.

 

[WPM]

Agree. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be many people like that on this forum. At least, not any of the active posters. Hopefully, some lurkers are learning something.

I agree. The calibre of Premils here are incapable of addressing the numerous holes in their doctrine.

 

[WPM]

Also Brethren in Christ...

Don't pay attention to any Amillennialist that tries to claim that all Premill believers are on man's FALSE Pre-trib Rapture theory. If Amillennialists are confused about the origins of the false Pre-trib Rapture theory and attribute that false idea to Premill, then it shows they don't understand what The Bible teaches about at all.

The 1st century Church fathers believed in a Premill idea, which is the actual order of the written Bible Scripture. It means on the day of Christ's future return AFTER the tribulation, at that point Christ's LITERAL "thousand years" reign with His elect begins. Premill means understanding that "thousand years" as a LITERAL period, not an allegory like Origen and occultists try to claim.

Since the 1st century Church fathers held to a Premil belief, then how could they believe in a false Pre-trib Rapture theory, simply because the Pre-trib Rapture theory was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby?!?

I didn't know John Darby was around in the 1st century A.D. to preach that false Pre-trib Rapture Theory to the 1st century Church fathers; did you know that?? Yet that is exactly the STUPID idea that Amillennialist try to use against Premils, because they well know the 1st century Church fathers were all Premillennialists!

1. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described sin existing on a future millennial earth?
2. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described corruption existing on a future millennial earth?
3. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described the wicked existing on a future millennial earth?
4. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described mortals existing on a future millennial earth?
5. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described decay existing on a future millennial earth?
6. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described the curse existing on a future millennial earth?
7. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described Satan existing on a future earth?
8. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium which involved the elevation of natural Israel above all other ethnic groups as Premil does?
9. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium involving a renewal of the Jewish sacrifice system as Premil does?
10. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium involving carnal pleasure like procreating in the age to come as Premil does?
11. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the binding of Satan for 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
12. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the release of Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
13. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as Premil does?
14. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that taught that Christ would be reigning in earthly Jerusalem over His enemies for 1,000 years upon David’s throne as Premil does?

 

[WPM]

The following Psalms 2 Scripture is where the idea of Christ literally reigning over the nations with His "rod of iron" comes from. And anyone who thinks that future "rod of iron" below is for Christ's Church, then they have succumbed to the 'stupidity' of Christ's enemies...

Psalms 2
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

The heathen nations rage against God and His Christ, thinking they can have power over God. That is obviously a thought of this present world time by Christ's enemies here on earth.

4 He That sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

But the reality is, God will eventually have those rebellious nations in derision. And at this point when this happens, it signals the future event of Christ's return and thereafter...

5 Then shall He speak unto them in His wrath, and vex them in His sore displeasure.

The Hebrew for that KJV word "vex" means 'affrighted, alarmed'. I refer to it as how 'shocked' those enemy nations will be when they see Christ coming in the clouds in the future.

6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.

That is NOT a spiritual metaphor friends in Christ. That is meant literally when Jesus Christ returns. He will reign from Jerusalem on earth, just like the Zechariah 14 Chapter reveals, and also because of His inheritance of David's EARTHLY throne. That is where that future "Zion" will be, on earth. The Revelation 20 Chapter refers to that area on earth as the "camp of the saints" after Christ's future return.

Psalm 2:1-12 tells us: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

The first thing we note here is that the “King” is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Verse 7 declares, “the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

In verse 4 we see the habitation of the King; how He “sitteth in the heavens.” In fact, verse 6 goes on to figuratively explain, “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.”

This interpretation is unequivocally confirmed in Acts 4:24-28, in the disciples prayer to God, where it records, “they (the disciples) lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said [in Psalm 2], Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

The New Testament writers have already located the fulfillment of it. They relate it to the current age. Your conflict is with the Book, again. Here this seemingly global prophecy is directly applied to Christ and to His first Advent, and to the different leaders of His day that opposed Him.

Paul relates the fulfilment of the Messianic enthronement to Christ’s current kingly reign in heaven. This truth is confirmed in Acts 13:22-23. Paul speaking to the religious Jews in Antioch says, concerning the promise of the Messiah and His rise to the throne of David, which was made unto their forefathers, “he (God) raised (aorist active indicative) up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man’s (David’s) seed hath God according to his promise raised (aorist active indicative) unto Israel a saviour, Jesus.”

This Davidic reference was used by Paul to demonstrate (to his Israeli audience) that the much-anticipated eternal Davidic reign (prophesied for centuries in the Old Testament) had arrived in the form of Jesus Christ and His glorious resurrection. Christ was indeed Israel’s anticipated “king” and “saviour.” Premillennialists are selective in their interpretation of passages like this. The reason being: they have to be! Passages like this negate their doctrine. Whilst they except Christ as Israel’s current “saviour,” they do not except Him was Israel’s current ruling “king.” However, this text exposes their objection. This passage proves that Christ is presented as already perfectly fulfilling the Davidic expectancy.

Paul adds in Acts 13:26-30, “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead.”

It is clear from this whole chapter that these misguided Jews still foolishly yearned for a coming Messiah who would one day reign upon a physical temporal earthly throne in Jerusalem, when He had in fact already come and rose to the heavenly Davidic throne. These earthly-minded Jews totally missed the hour of their visitation because of their false theology. They totally misunderstood who their Messiah was and what form His reign would look like. The sobering part of this text is, their misinterpretation of Scripture, and their false expectation, caused them to miss their Messiah. The fact is, He came to Israel and most Jews never even recognised Him for who He was. They had such a wrong perception of their own king.

Paul then enlarges and explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers (speaking about the kingly Messianic reign that would usher from the seed of David), God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David [quoting Isaiah 55:3]” (vv 32-34).

This is talking about the resurrection, and what resulted through the great commission. Colossians 1:18 describes Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn [Gr. prootótokos] from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

This passage, which is clearly referring to Christ’s physical resurrection, describes Christ’s status after triumphing over death and the grave as the prootótokos or put another way first begotten from the dead.

Paul here applies the Old Testament Davidic promises in Psalm 2 and Isaiah 55 to Christ’s resurrection to the throne; and explains how such prophecies had already marvelously happened. Christ’s sinless life and His atoning death would’ve meant nothing if He hadn’t conquered the grave.

 

[WPM]

Op Note!

Premils have no rebuttal to these 26 findings in the Op. They are obviously watertight.

Every thread I have started re this has been derailed. Now, they have nothing.

 

[Davidpt]

Disprove the chronology between Revelation 19 and 20 and Premillennialism falls apart.

So when are you or any other Amil going to get around to doing that? Simply provide passages in Revelation prior to ch 20 that support a period of time that satan is bound in the pit and not decieving the nations.

Maybe it's just me, but I see zero in Revelation prior to ch 20 that might support a period of time that satan is bound in the pit and inactive throughout the earth. Meaning the same way when the locusts are in the pit, that they are inactive throughout the earth in the meantime. As if they don't even exist. Yet they do exist except it is not until they are loosed from the pit that occupants upon the earth then begin to feel and are aware of their presence.

 

[WPM]

So when are you or any other Amil going to get around to doing that? Simply provide passages in Revelation prior to ch 20 that support a period of time that satan is bound in the pit and not decieving the nations.

Maybe it's just me, but I see zero in Revelation prior to ch 20 that might support a period of time that satan is bound in the pit and inactive throughout the earth. Meaning the same way when the locusts are in the pit, that they are inactive throughout the earth in the meantime. As if they don't even exist. Yet they do exist except it is not until they are loosed from the pit that occupants upon the earth then begin to feel and are aware of their presence.

• Christ defeated sin, death, Satan, and every enemy of righteousness at the cross. He bound Satan spiritually through the First Advent. He now reigns over all creation, the Israel of God (His redeemed) and His enemies (as God and man). The millennium kingdom sees Christ reigning (from His ascent) over the nations. He is working all things providentially for the good of His people. Everything is under the control of Christ, and therefore subject to His own will. Not even a sparrow falls from the sky without His permission. I think it is wrong to imagine that Christ is sovereignly reigning over every aspect of creation apart from the wicked.
• Man's awful penalty has been paid in full. Satan has nothing on the redeemed.
• Satan has lost his accusation seat in heaven, along with his minions. He cannot now bring accusations before the throne of God against the redeemed.
• Geographically the Gospel was overwhelmingly restricted to the lone nation of Israel, with a few scarce exceptions. The darkened nations have now seen a great light. Christ has endowed the New Testament Church with a spiritual power over Satan himself and all devils. They are now subject to the authority of the Church as they function under the power of the Holy Ghost and employ the inspired will of God as their main weapon.

This is the authority Jesus secured through His resurrection. He cast Satan out of heaven and then restrained him with spiritual chains so that the Gospel could enlighten the nations. Satan's defeat came after the resurrection.

Through Christ's victorious “first resurrection” the dead in Christ (the souls) were released from Hades because sin had been defeated and consequently the cause of sin – death – was also defeated. The dead in Christ are therefore no longer in Abraham’s bosom since the first resurrection. They are seen in heaven reigning with Christ. Basically, as Satan was banished and the elect were welcomed.

So, it was only after the first resurrection (when sin, death, Satan and hell were defeated) and the consequential binding of Satan that the dead in Christ could be released to enter the presence of the Lord in heaven. Their part and had been secured under penalty have been paid in full.

Amils do not believe that Satan's authority is obsolete, but that he is like a dog on a chain. He is restricted specifically from stopping the enlightenment of the Gentiles through the great commission. The pit is a condition rather than a geographical place. It is a place of spiritual restraint.

 

[PS95]

Thanks for this- another job well done.

 

[Scott Downey]

Brethren in Christ:

Beware of vain strategies like the above.

The Zechariah 14 Scripture as a witness proving the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 will be a LITERAL period is not the ONLY Bible Scripture that points to that future "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect. WPM of course knows this, but he doesn't want you... to know about it.

Like God's Word says, let every word be confirmed by at least 2 witnesses, and I have well done that about the future "thousand years" LITERL reign by Lord Jesus that begins on the day of His future coming:

Zechariah 14
Revelation 3:9
Revelation 22:14-15
Isaiah 24:19-23
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Psalms 2
1 Corinthians 5:5
Isaiah 2:4-21

And of course, the Revelation 20 Chapter which literally... declares Christ's future reign over His enemies, they're being made His footstool, will be a literal "thousand years" period. And Jesus said His elect overcomers will reign over those unsaved nations with Him, with His "rod of iron".

Your doctrine is foolishness.

Revelation 19:15
Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The rod of iron is showing their certain destruction, not correction. Rod of iron is not a whip, it is capital punishment.
'Rule them', He has authority over all people, this is a judgment against them and the rule is condemnation and capital punishment.

The winepress illustration described here as wrathful destruction, day of vengeance, and death, it is never merciful correction.

Isaiah 63
Who is this who comes from Edom,
With dyed garments from Bozrah,
This One who is [a]glorious in His apparel,
Traveling in the greatness of His strength?—
“I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
3 “I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.
4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart,
And the year of My redeemed has come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
And I wondered
That there was no one to uphold;
Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me;
And My own fury, it sustained Me.
6 I have trodden down the peoples in My anger,
Made them drunk in My fury,
And brought down their strength to the earth.”

Revelation 14

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath​

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred [k]furlongs.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jeremiah 25, God announces His judgment is ready for Israel and then He writes this will also happen to all nations to the farthest parts of the earth, at that DAY of His vengeance and wrath, that the slain of the Lord shall be many, no one left to lament the dead or bury them.
The 'winepress' of His wrath is against all the inhabitants of the earth.
He will give all the wicked to the sword, this says they will all be killed, all the wicked at that DAY, none will survive.
You are of the wicked rebels if you do not repent and believe in His Son.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
30 “Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them:

‘The Lord will roar from on high,
And utter His voice from His holy habitation;
He will roar mightily against His fold.
He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes,
Against all the inhabitants of the earth.

31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth—
For the Lord has a controversy with the nations;
He will plead His case with all flesh.
He will give those who are wicked to the sword,’ says the Lord.”
32 Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Behold, disaster shall go forth
From nation to nation,
And a great whirlwind shall be raised up
From the farthest parts of the earth.
33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.

34 “Wail, shepherds, and cry!
Roll about in the ashes,
You leaders of the flock!
For the days of your slaughter and your dispersions are fulfilled;
You shall fall like a precious vessel.
35 And the shepherds will have no [e]way to flee,
Nor the leaders of the flock to escape.
36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds,
And a wailing of the leaders to the flock will be heard.
For the Lord has plundered their pasture,
37 And the peaceful dwellings are cut down
Because of the fierce anger of the Lord.
38 He has left His lair like the lion;
For their land is desolate
Because of the fierceness of the Oppressor,
And because of His fierce anger.”

 

[WPM]

Your doctrine is foolishness.

Revelation 19:15
Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The rod of iron is showing their certain destruction, not correction. Rod of iron is not a whip, it is capital punishment.
'Rule them', He has authority over all people, this is a judgment against them and the rule is condemnation and capital punishment.

The winepress illustration described here as wrathful destruction, day of vengeance, and death, it is never merciful correction.

Isaiah 63
Who is this who comes from Edom,
With dyed garments from Bozrah,
This One who is [a]glorious in His apparel,
Traveling in the greatness of His strength?—
“I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
3 “I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.
4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart,
And the year of My redeemed has come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
And I wondered
That there was no one to uphold;
Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me;
And My own fury, it sustained Me.
6 I have trodden down the peoples in My anger,
Made them drunk in My fury,
And brought down their strength to the earth.”

Revelation 14

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath​

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred [k]furlongs.

I suspect Premils know what we know. The doctrine does not line up with multiple Scripture. They have nothing.

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ has bound the 'strong man' and all his fallen angels, demons etc... spiritual powers of wickedness
Disarmed them, meaning they have no power anymore, they are now subservient to Christ as they were subservient to the Father before Christ came.

The public spectacle, I imagine could be all the heavenly host who are witnesses, That Christ has conquered all, taken up His great power, and reigned gloriously over all.

Colossians 2 shows Christ has triumphed over principalities and powers.
15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.


Colossians 2

1 For I want you to know what a great conflict[a] I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, [b]both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing [c]to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding [d]in it with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest anyone [e]cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead [f]bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all [g]principality and power.

Not Legalism but Christ​

11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a [j]festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the [k]substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has [l]not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20 [m]Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and [n]neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

 

[Scott Downey]

Revelation 5

New King James Version
The Lamb Takes the Scroll

1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open [a]and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

6 And I looked, [c]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Worthy Is the Lamb
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and [g]ever!”

14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the [h]twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.


Revelation 11

Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed​

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The [f]kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was [g]and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

18 The nations were angry, and Your [h]wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of [i]His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[WPM]

Revelation 5

New King James Version
The Lamb Takes the Scroll

1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open [a]and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

6 And I looked, [c]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Worthy Is the Lamb
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and [g]ever!”

14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the [h]twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.


Revelation 11

Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed​

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The [f]kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was [g]and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

18 The nations were angry, and Your [h]wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of [i]His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

I do not know whether there is a Premillennial rebuttal to that.

 

[WPM]

So when are you or any other Amil going to get around to doing that? Simply provide passages in Revelation prior to ch 20 that support a period of time that satan is bound in the pit and not decieving the nations.

Maybe it's just me, but I see zero in Revelation prior to ch 20 that might support a period of time that satan is bound in the pit and inactive throughout the earth. Meaning the same way when the locusts are in the pit, that they are inactive throughout the earth in the meantime. As if they don't even exist. Yet they do exist except it is not until they are loosed from the pit that occupants upon the earth then begin to feel and are aware of their presence.

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are all knit together in Scripture. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. They also all came under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time through Christ’s earthly ministry.

When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then all were bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm has been restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

When Satan was banished from heaven, so was the whole demonic realm (1/3 of the angels went with him).

Through his defeat, Satan fell from heaven (John 12:31 & Revelation 12:7-9) and is now present in the Abyss (Revelation 9:1-11 & Revelation 20:3). The abyss is not a physical geographical place. After all, physical metal chains cannot hold spirits. It is a spiritual state of restraint for spirits now. Near the end, the beast will be released from his restraints and the “deadly wound” to his head will be “healed” (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14). This tells us that he too was bruised like Satan’s head through the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Just like Satan’s power and influence were curtailed through the life, death and first resurrection of Christ, so too was the beast’s. The fate of the two mirror each other. The reason is, the beast is dependent upon the power of Satan to do his evil. The beast is his envoy or enforcer. At the end Satan will be released from his restraint to empower the beast to subjugate the Church, curtail the Gospel expanse and deceive the nations again. There will be a suppression of the Gospel in the last of the last days. This will result in deep persecution. But the darkest days in history have always been the brightest days in history.

When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So when are you or any other Amil going to get around to doing that? Simply provide passages in Revelation prior to ch 20 that support a period of time that satan is bound in the pit and not decieving the nations.

Maybe it's just me, but I see zero in Revelation prior to ch 20 that might support a period of time that satan is bound in the pit and inactive throughout the earth.

Why should we try to show you something according to YOUR understanding of things instead of according to how we understand it? Why in the world would we try to show you a verse that shows Satan as being completely inactive throughout the earth while being bound in the pit when that is not even our understanding of his binding? That would be a complete waste of time. I don't get how you look at things at all. You try to force us to prove our doctrine based on your rules. No, that's not how this works.

If Satan being bound implies that he is completely inactive, then is that your understanding of this passage as well...

Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Do you understand that the strong man represents Satan? If so, then do you think the binding of the strong man that Jesus referenced here has something to do with making Satan completely inactive?

 

[Davy]

Your doctrine is foolishness.

You mean CHRIST'S DOCTRINE for that is what I have covered directly from His written Word.

You are MOCKING HIS WORD OF TRUTH with your vanity of following men's stupid insane false-Jews doctrines instead.

So why don't you go back to your Jewish synagogue and report back to those blind Pharisees how you FAILED to convince but only a stupid few to believe THE FALSENESS that you push.

 

[Scott Downey]

You mean CHRIST'S DOCTRINE for that is what I have covered directly from His written Word.

You are MOCKING HIS WORD OF TRUTH with your vanity of following men's stupid insane false-Jews doctrines instead.

So why don't you go back to your Jewish synagogue and report back to those blind Pharisees how you FAILED to convince but only a stupid few to believe THE FALSENESS that you push.

Your doctrine is foolishness and falsehoods, your own curses fall upon you.

The real Christ warned his disciples that false christs would arise and deceive many people.
A false Christ is in opposition to the reality of What Christ said.

If you do not agree with the sound words of Christ, you know nothing and are puffed up by your fleshy mind.