The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics - see the evidence

[WPM]

As an Israeli who was raised with the idea that Messiah will be a powerful political figure rather than to die and be raised up on the third day, no. The ancients knew nothing about the cross itself as the instrument, but prophecy did reveal that He would die and be raised up, which was completely missed, and continues to be missed, by my Judaeo leaning brothers and sisters. If they were all looking forward to the cross of which they knew nothing about, that makes those false teaching pastors men of no renown that anyone should listen to them.

(1) I couldn't care less whether you are Israeli, Italian or Irish. It makes no difference today. Race means nothing!
(2) You have clearly no clue as to the revelation old covenant saints had since the Garden to the cross. You are not seeing it.

The story of Israel’s history is focused in on the coming Messiah – One who would come and deliver Israel from her awful predicament. But, Israel’s greatest quandary was her sin. Not surprising, therefore, God’s chief purpose in history has been to glorify Himself through the redemption of His chosen people. The Messiah is presented in the old economy as a coming redeemer who would save Israel (and sinful man) from their sin. Granted, this was a progressive revelation.

Oddly, and sadly, Dispensational scholars today advocate similar views on this subject to those of the Christ-rejecting Pharisees of Jesus day, arguing that Christ came to set up an autocratic Israeli kingdom, of which He failed through the Jewish rejection of Him. Basically, man was able to curtail the plan of God. But this is contrary to the expectation and predictions of the Old Testament prophets, who actually anticipated a suffering Messiah. They awaited one who would redeem Israel from their sin. The prophets, and those who had eyes to see in Israel, were fixated with Christ (thee hope of Israel), and with the redemption (deliverance) from sin He would secure.

God foretold the coming redeemer and Christ’s atoning sacrifice for sin at Calvary from the beginning in Genesis 3: “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” (Genesis 3:15). This prophecy in the Garden pointed straight to Calvary. It described the enormity of the cross-work. It came as a result of the Fall of Adam and Eve, which opened their eyes, revealing their awful sinful state.

Genesis 3:7 says, “the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.” Notwithstanding, God provided an immediate remedy for their hopeless state in the shedding of blood in the Garden, which became a spiritual covering for them in their condition. Genesis 3: 21 reveals, “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.”

Even through the tragedy of the Fall, God had an immediate and acceptable antidote. By shedding the blood of innocent animals and provided a covering for sin and shame, God afforded man a way of escape. The Lord removed their man-made garments and gave them a divine covering. Here is the first blood sacrifice. Significantly it was made by Almighty God. This Divine transaction revealed an eternal truth to sinful man, that “without shedding of blood is no remission” for sin (Hebrews 9:22). This blood sacrifice in the Garden was God’s preview of Calvary. Through this blood atonement He established a covenant with sinful man. Through it he revealed the only means of sacrifice acceptable unto God.

This system of blood sacrifice was passed down from Adam and Eve to Cain and Abel. However, Cain though he could circumvent this requirement, and bring an offering of fruit instead of a blood sacrifice (Genesis 4:5). He was consequently rejected by God for that. Abel's offering was acceptable to God because it was the “firstlings of his flock” (Genesis 4:4). After the flood receded, Noah made animal sacrifices to God for sin (Genesis 8:20-21).

A complex plan of blood atonement was officially set in place in the book of Leviticus as a temporary covering for Israel's sin. God accepted the substitutionary sacrifice of innocent animals as an appeasement for sin. He held back His wrath many times because of this scheme. It allowed sinful man to come into His presence and not be destroyed. Notwithstanding, the temple ordinances, the priestly ministry, the blood sacrifices, the annual feasts were all pointing to the coming Messiah and His one final sacrifice for sin.

But Christ would not just make this final sacrifice for sin, He was that sacrifice. Repeated Scripture depicts Him as man’s actual redeemer. Psalm 22:12-18: “For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.”

Here the cross is predicted and prefigured. It shows how Christ was condemned on our behalf in order that we could be free.

Probably the most vivid prediction of the cross in the Old Testament is Isaiah 53. There Christ’s substutionary death is revealed in graphic detail. Isaiah 53:3-7 says, “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

The sufferings of our Lord were vicariously penal or atoning as they were intended to satisfy the justice of God on the sinner's behalf. At Calvary the guilt of our sins was transferred or imputed to Christ, our penalty was laid upon Him.

Isaiah 53:9-12 continues, “And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

By taking upon Himself our punishment, He was becoming a substitutionary sacrifice for man. Never again will there ever be an end made for transgression. Never again will there ever be another Calvary. In these great prophetic words we see the complete fulfilment of the heavenly transaction for sin and transgression. This was totally perfected in Christ’s sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

 

[WPM]

The ancients knew nothing about the cross itself as the instrument, but prophecy did reveal that He would die and be raised up, which was completely missed, and continues to be missed, by my Judaeo leaning brothers and sisters.

Daniel 9:24-26 predicts, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.”

Six things are clearly and deliberately predicted (in Daniel 9) to occur within the 70 weeks – thus “seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to…” What was to happen?

(1) “finish the transgression”
(2) “make an end of sins”
(3) “make reconciliation for iniquity”
(4) “bring in everlasting righteousness”
(5) “seal up the vision and prophecy”
(6) “anoint the most Holy”

All these predictions were perfectly fulfilled in the person of Christ and in His wonderful earthly ministry, especially the cross. He spent 3 ½ years fulfilling every expectation that the Father demanded, from His arrival on the public scene (and His heavenly vindication from the Father after He was baptized) to His atoning death and His victorious resurrection for the grave. All of these predictions have been met in one man – the man Christ Jesus.

In Ezekiel 36:26-27 we see the progressive revelation of the cross-work being revealed to God’s prophet. The effects of the new covenant are said to be transformational: “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

Ezekiel 37:26-28: “I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

The Old Testament saints received their eternal inheritance looking forward to the new covenant. The old could not have achieved this of it as it was only a temporary shadow and type of the real and eternal.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 says: “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

This is pointing us straight to Christ and His once all-sufficient sacrifice at the cross. Clearly the ancient prophets anticipated a suffering servant not some conquering king. Thank God, the benefits of the covenant He made are still active today. The results of Calvary are ongoing and relate to the intra-Advent period. It is not merely a future reality.

Sadly, for 2000 years most natural ethnic Jews have rejected God’s new covenant through Christ in His own blood with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Jeremiah 32:38-40: “they shall be my people, and I will be their God: And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.”

Zechariah 12:10 says, “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

The Old Testament prophets predicted the manner of Messiah’s ministry and the focus of His earthly mission. They foretold the time that He would come. They described His assignment and detailed His accomplishments. They depicted a suffering servant coming to redeem Israel from their sin. They portrayed the resistance He would experience. They forecast His rejection and the cross.

The angel of the Lord summed up Christ’s mission on earth when he spoke to Joseph in a dream about the birth of Jesus in Matthew 1:20–21: “Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.”

Christ had a task to fulfil and goals to achieve. Everything He encountered and when He encountered it was part of a preordained plan for Him. That plan captivated His whole time on this earth from the cradle to the cross.

John the Baptist’s father Zacharias, who was filled with the Holy Ghost, prophesied in Luke 1:68-75: “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.”

The elect remnant of Israel had a spiritual awareness of Christ’s mission. Redemption was the central aspect of Messiah’s mission to earth. Israel needed the sin question addressed more than any other issue. This was man’s greatest affliction. Right was His birth redemption was the great spiritual assignment laid upon His shoulders.

The coming redeemer was anticipated by Simeon who faithfully waited for His appearing in Luke 2:30-35, where he acknowledged: “For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel … Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

Redemption was no secondary thought. It was no Plan B. It was the duty Jesus came to realize and He accomplished it perfectly. Anna, the prophetess, announced the same in Luke 2:38: “she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.” Obviously, those who knew the Old Testament Scriptures, and were blessed with eyes to see, were fully aware that redemption was at the forefront of the Messiah’s ministry. The enlightened old covenant saints awaited the promised redeemer with great anticipation. This was central to their faith and necessary for their eternal redemption.

3 days after the crucifixion, two of Jesus discouraged disciples were heading to Emmaus. They were probably glad to get out of Jerusalem. They used this journey to reflect upon the life, death and burial of Christ. The resurrection promise seemed to be under question. They testified in Luke 24:21: “we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and besides all this, today is the third day since these things were done.”

Christ fulfilled the plan that was laid down for Him. The redemptive path was the divine route for the Messiah.

 

[Bladerunner]

We do have this from scripture, even though some out there apply grammatical gymnastics to try and make it sound like something OTHER than what it actually says:

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

These same people will say about the above verse what they would never say about this:

The truck OF group 1 was committed unto me, as the truck OF group 2 was committed unto Bob.

They would never say that there was only one truck, but rather two if one dares to be intellectually honest.

Meanwhile, when they get in among their circle of friends who don't know the scriptures, their friends will tell them it was one singular (same) gospel all throughout, always at the exclusion of the fact that Jesus did not preach about His death and resurrection for salvation as was true of Peter in Acts 2 when asked. The text betrays these facts bold-faced, and yet the deniers will continue in denials.

Additionally, the prophecies, promises and blessings were always aimed at ethnic Israel (which also included the Gentiles who became Jews), so the above attempt at replacement theology garbage is nothing more than anti-Semitic trash talk because of its suggestion that ethnic Israel has been cast aside forever.

Another problem this replacement theology warp introduces is the idea that God is fickle...that He cannot be trusted to follow through with His promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, rooted on the premise that their disobedience was the catalyst for nullification. Those who vomit replacement theology sentiments and narrative should be in fear of their own salvation if God were so fickle and inconsistent because not one of you ever stopped sinning after being saved.

Who here has heard this silliness from their false teaching pastors?

"The Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross just as the New Testament saints look back to the cross..."

Garbage! Those false teachers don't know the scripture:

Mark 9:30-32
30 And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; and he would not that any man should know it.
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

As an Israeli who was raised with the idea that Messiah will be a powerful political figure rather than to die and be raised up on the third day, no. The ancients knew nothing about the cross itself as the instrument, but prophecy did reveal that He would die and be raised up, which was completely missed, and continues to be missed, by my Judaeo leaning brothers and sisters. If they were all looking forward to the cross of which they knew nothing about, that makes those false teaching pastors men of no renown that anyone should listen to them.

BTW

they (the nation) was partially blinded by Jesus the day after He rode into Jerusalem. And it is so today. the Jews are still blinded...until the fullness of the Gentiles...This will be somewhere around the middle of Daniel's 70th week. for as Mat 24, 15..... states those who believe should flee judiah (i.e. Rev 12)..

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Deut 7.6 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

That was Israel. God has chosen various individuals and nations. Israel was the 1st nation to be chosen/elect of God. Peter was referencing the elect of Israel because he described them as "exiles."

1 Peter 1.To God’s elect, exiles scattered...

This scattering is a reference back to Luke 21 where Jesus said that the Jewish People would be punished and scattered into exile.

Luke 21.22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Compare what Peter said with what Moses wrote above...

1 Pet 2.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Deut 7.6 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

In my view, we are talking about Israel. You're entitled to your own opinion. Whether or not you want to assert it as "fact" is up to you.

There's a couple things relating to the context of 1 Peter 2:9 that I'd like to point out.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

First, the people who Peter calls "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people" are the same people he said are "lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" who is the "chief corner stone".

What other "spiritual house" with Jesus Christ as its chief cornerstone is there except for the church? That certainly does not describe the nation of Israel. It matches the description of the church that Paul gave in Ephesians 2:19-22.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Another thing to notice is that Peter indicated that in time past the chosen generation/royal priesthood/holy nation/peculiar people he was writing to were not the people of God. That can't be said about the nation of Israel. So, again, he's talking about the church, including Gentiles, here. Formerly not a people, but became the people of God by the blood of Christ. As Paul said, the Gentiles were formerly "without Christ...and without God in the world, but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." (Ephesians 2:11-13) and they became "fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God". Fellowcitizens with Israelite saints in the church, in other words, with Jesus as the cornerstone.

 

[covenantee]

they (the nation) was partially blinded by Jesus the day after He rode into Jerusalem. And it is so today. the Jews are still blinded...until the fullness of the Gentiles...This will be somewhere around the middle of Daniel's 70th week. for as Mat 24, 15..... states those who believe should flee judiah (i.e. Rev 12)..

Would that be around the middle of your decapitated orphaned undetermined 70th week?

That's not Daniel's 70th week. His was fulfilled in the middle by Christ, the Divine Covenant Confirmer, at Calvary.

The Judaean Christians fled Jerusalem prior to 70 AD, in response to the warnings that Jesus had delivered years earlier during His Olivet Discourse.

You're a couple thousand and counting, years too late.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

they (the nation) was partially blinded by Jesus the day after He rode into Jerusalem. And it is so today. the Jews are still blinded...until the fullness of the Gentiles...This will be somewhere around the middle of Daniel's 70th week. for as Mat 24, 15..... states those who believe should flee judiah (i.e. Rev 12)..

What is your understanding of Jews being blinded? Do you know that Paul believed that he could lead some of those who were blinded in his day to salvation?

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Paul talked about those who were blinded in his day as having stumbled, but not to have fallen beyond recovery. That means their blindness was not permanent. They still had the opportunity to be saved. I wonder if you think that if someone is blinded then they can't be saved and that none who are blinded have their blindness removed until some future time? If so, that does not agree with the context of what Paul wrote about in Romans 11.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Evidently he's another one-man cult, unable to answer the simplest question, but a self-proclaimed oracle of all truth for all time.

And nothing but a waste of time.

Yep, just another lone wolf like the other many lone wolves on this forum who have views all to themselves and can't handle having their lone wolf views being challenged.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We do have this from scripture, even though some out there apply grammatical gymnastics to try and make it sound like something OTHER than what it actually says:

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

These same people will say about the above verse what they would never say about this:

The truck OF group 1 was committed unto me, as the truck OF group 2 was committed unto Bob.

You are butchering the text in that verse and making it contradict the rest of the New Testament. Paul was not referring to two different gospels there in that verse. Here is a better translation of that verse:

Galatians 2:7 (NIV): On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.

Here, we can see that Paul was referring to the one gospel (just as in all his other writings he only referred to one gospel) and indicated that he was entrusted with preaching the one gospel to the uncircumcised while Peter was entrusted with preaching the one gospel to the circumcised.

Why would Paul talk about two different gospels being preached in that verse after previously having written this...

Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

If Peter was preaching a different gospel than Paul was preaching then Paul said he should be under God's curse. Paul only knew of one gospel, not two, and he condemned the preaching of any other gospel than "the gospel of Christ".

Additionally, the prophecies, promises and blessings were always aimed at ethnic Israel (which also included the Gentiles who became Jews), so the above attempt at replacement theology garbage is nothing more than anti-Semitic trash talk because of its suggestion that ethnic Israel has been cast aside forever.

Stop misrepresenting what others believe. No one has suggested that "ethnic Israel has been cast aside forever". Paul made it clear that was not the case and used himself and the rest of the remnant of believers in his day as proof of that.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

No one has been replaced. Gentile believers have been grafted in with Israelite believers. Stop making strawman arguments and pay attention to what others actually believe.

Another problem this replacement theology warp introduces is the idea that God is fickle...that He cannot be trusted to follow through with His promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, rooted on the premise that their disobedience was the catalyst for nullification. Those who vomit replacement theology sentiments and narrative should be in fear of their own salvation if God were so fickle and inconsistent because not one of you ever stopped sinning after being saved.
Who here has heard this silliness from their false teaching pastors?

"The Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross just as the New Testament saints look back to the cross..."

Garbage! Those false teachers don't know the scripture:

Mark 9:30-32
30 And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; and he would not that any man should know it.
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

As an Israeli who was raised with the idea that Messiah will be a powerful political figure rather than to die and be raised up on the third day, no. The ancients knew nothing about the cross itself as the instrument, but prophecy did reveal that He would die and be raised up, which was completely missed, and continues to be missed, by my Judaeo leaning brothers and sisters. If they were all looking forward to the cross of which they knew nothing about, that makes those false teaching pastors men of no renown that anyone should listen to them.

BTW

Explain this then...

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. 33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You didn't ask a question that had the precision for me to answer. It's too broad. What about MY post before that? You jumped to the second reply of mine.

BTW

You accuse people of believing in replacement theology, but can't even answer a simple question about who Amils think is supposedly being replaced. Do you want to be taken seriously or not?

 

[Randy Kluth]

There's a couple things relating to the context of 1 Peter 2:9 that I'd like to point out.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

First, the people who Peter calls "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people" are the same people he said are "lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" who is the "chief corner stone".

What other "spiritual house" with Jesus Christ as its chief cornerstone is there except for the church? That certainly does not describe the nation of Israel. It matches the description of the church that Paul gave in Ephesians 2:19-22.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Another thing to notice is that Peter indicated that in time past the chosen generation/royal priesthood/holy nation/peculiar people he was writing to were not the people of God. That can't be said about the nation of Israel. So, again, he's talking about the church, including Gentiles, here. Formerly not a people, but became the people of God by the blood of Christ. As Paul said, the Gentiles were formerly "without Christ...and without God in the world, but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." (Ephesians 2:11-13) and they became "fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God". Fellowcitizens with Israelite saints in the church, in other words, with Jesus as the cornerstone.

I quite agree that Peter in 1 Peter 1 was addressing the Church. But it was the Jewish Church he was addressing primarily when he referred to them as "exiles."

When Israel was overcome by the Romans and sent away into captivity the believers in Israel suffered as well. Those obedient to Jesus fled to the nearby mountains and survived the Roman invasion. But they remained "exiles."

Certainly, if Peter addressed the whole nation of Israel, including those in Rabbinic Judaism, it would've had very little material for Christians overall. But if this was addressed to what we today would call "Messianic Jews," then the truths presented could help Christians of any ethnicity.

 

[WPM]

I quite agree that Peter in 1 Peter 1 was addressing the Church. But it was the Jewish Church he was addressing primarily when he referred to them as "exiles."

When Israel was overcome by the Romans and sent away into captivity the believers in Israel suffered as well. Those obedient to Jesus fled to the nearby mountains and survived the Roman invasion. But they remained "exiles."

Certainly, if Peter addressed the whole nation of Israel, including those in Rabbinic Judaism, it would've had very little material for Christians overall. But if this was addressed to what we today would call "Messianic Jews," then the truths presented could help Christians of any ethnicity.

1. What percentage Jewish DNA qualified them to be classed as "the Jewish Church"?
2. What percentage Gentile DNA disqualified them from being classed as "the Jewish Church"?
3. What percentage Gentile DNA qualified them to be classed as "the Gentile Church"?
4. What percentage Jewish DNA disqualified them from being classed as "the Gentile Church"?
5. What Dispensatanist teacher are you getting these 2 distinct Churches from?
6. Did Jesus not come to eternally break down the wall of division between Jew and Gentile 2000 years ago through the cross?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Our pastor, in giving a sermon on Sunday, shareed this passage from Matthew....
Matt 7.3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

I think that when arguing over theologies and Bible interpretations we would do well to remember this, so that we do not come under the judgment of God. If we don't have mercy on others, neither will God have mercy on us. Let's stay safe before God, and thrive!

 

[BeforeThereWas]

What are you scared of? You're the one that was on the attack. You seem to know it all. Yet, when you're asked you cannot even answer a simple question.

I stated to you the illogic of your question and asked for clarification, now you're claiming fear on my part. Please start making sense so that we can continue in a reasonable conversation.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

(1) I couldn't care less whether you are Israeli, Italian or Irish. It makes no difference today. Race means nothing!
(2) You have clearly no clue as to the revelation old covenant saints had since the Garden to the cross. You are not seeing it.

The story of Israel’s history is focused in on the coming Messiah – One who would come and deliver Israel from her awful predicament. But, Israel’s greatest quandary was her sin. Not surprising, therefore, God’s chief purpose in history has been to glorify Himself through the redemption of His chosen people. The Messiah is presented in the old economy as a coming redeemer who would save Israel (and sinful man) from their sin. Granted, this was a progressive revelation.

Oddly, and sadly, Dispensational scholars today advocate similar views on this subject to those of the Christ-rejecting Pharisees of Jesus day, arguing that Christ came to set up an autocratic Israeli kingdom, of which He failed through the Jewish rejection of Him. Basically, man was able to curtail the plan of God. But this is contrary to the expectation and predictions of the Old Testament prophets, who actually anticipated a suffering Messiah. They awaited one who would redeem Israel from their sin. The prophets, and those who had eyes to see in Israel, were fixated with Christ (thee hope of Israel), and with the redemption (deliverance) from sin He would secure.

God foretold the coming redeemer and Christ’s atoning sacrifice for sin at Calvary from the beginning in Genesis 3: “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” (Genesis 3:15). This prophecy in the Garden pointed straight to Calvary. It described the enormity of the cross-work. It came as a result of the Fall of Adam and Eve, which opened their eyes, revealing their awful sinful state.

Genesis 3:7 says, “the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.” Notwithstanding, God provided an immediate remedy for their hopeless state in the shedding of blood in the Garden, which became a spiritual covering for them in their condition. Genesis 3: 21 reveals, “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.”

Even through the tragedy of the Fall, God had an immediate and acceptable antidote. By shedding the blood of innocent animals and provided a covering for sin and shame, God afforded man a way of escape. The Lord removed their man-made garments and gave them a divine covering. Here is the first blood sacrifice. Significantly it was made by Almighty God. This Divine transaction revealed an eternal truth to sinful man, that “without shedding of blood is no remission” for sin (Hebrews 9:22). This blood sacrifice in the Garden was God’s preview of Calvary. Through this blood atonement He established a covenant with sinful man. Through it he revealed the only means of sacrifice acceptable unto God.

This system of blood sacrifice was passed down from Adam and Eve to Cain and Abel. However, Cain though he could circumvent this requirement, and bring an offering of fruit instead of a blood sacrifice (Genesis 4:5). He was consequently rejected by God for that. Abel's offering was acceptable to God because it was the “firstlings of his flock” (Genesis 4:4). After the flood receded, Noah made animal sacrifices to God for sin (Genesis 8:20-21).

A complex plan of blood atonement was officially set in place in the book of Leviticus as a temporary covering for Israel's sin. God accepted the substitutionary sacrifice of innocent animals as an appeasement for sin. He held back His wrath many times because of this scheme. It allowed sinful man to come into His presence and not be destroyed. Notwithstanding, the temple ordinances, the priestly ministry, the blood sacrifices, the annual feasts were all pointing to the coming Messiah and His one final sacrifice for sin.

But Christ would not just make this final sacrifice for sin, He was that sacrifice. Repeated Scripture depicts Him as man’s actual redeemer. Psalm 22:12-18: “For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.”

Here the cross is predicted and prefigured. It shows how Christ was condemned on our behalf in order that we could be free.

Probably the most vivid prediction of the cross in the Old Testament is Isaiah 53. There Christ’s substutionary death is revealed in graphic detail. Isaiah 53:3-7 says, “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

The sufferings of our Lord were vicariously penal or atoning as they were intended to satisfy the justice of God on the sinner's behalf. At Calvary the guilt of our sins was transferred or imputed to Christ, our penalty was laid upon Him.

Isaiah 53:9-12 continues, “And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

By taking upon Himself our punishment, He was becoming a substitutionary sacrifice for man. Never again will there ever be an end made for transgression. Never again will there ever be another Calvary. In these great prophetic words we see the complete fulfilment of the heavenly transaction for sin and transgression. This was totally perfected in Christ’s sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

No. This dispensation of grace toward all was not prophesied because it was a mystery hidden in God until revealed to Paul. That's what is written. What scholars say is of no absolute consequence. That the Lord chose to implement what was hidden from all others is His prerogative. That salvation came to Genties apart from having to join with Israel is an amazing interruption of the way things were, and is revealed to us that, had Satan and his prince demons known of that, they would not have "...crucified the Lord of glory."

That this dispensation of grace was not known to the prophets...so what? That's a no-brainer to the honest student of scripture.

It's also a given that replacement theology, with all its warps and twists of scripture, has some throwing a doctrinal fit, but none of that will ever change biblical truth.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

they (the nation) was partially blinded by Jesus the day after He rode into Jerusalem. And it is so today. the Jews are still blinded...until the fullness of the Gentiles...This will be somewhere around the middle of Daniel's 70th week. for as Mat 24, 15..... states those who believe should flee judiah (i.e. Rev 12)..

Too bad the replacement theology hounds out there don't believe what is actually written in scripture about all this. Thanks for your post.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

You are butchering the text in that verse and making it contradict the rest of the New Testament. Paul was not referring to two different gospels there in that verse. Here is a better translation of that verse:

Galatians 2:7 (NIV): On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.

Here, we can see that Paul was referring to the one gospel (just as in all his other writings he only referred to one gospel) and indicated that he was entrusted with preaching the one gospel to the uncircumcised while Peter was entrusted with preaching the one gospel to the circumcised.

Why would Paul talk about two different gospels being preached in that verse after previously having written this...

Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

If Peter was preaching a different gospel than Paul was preaching then Paul said he should be under God's curse. Paul only knew of one gospel, not two, and he condemned the preaching of any other gospel than "the gospel of Christ".


Stop misrepresenting what others believe. No one has suggested that "ethnic Israel has been cast aside forever". Paul made it clear that was not the case and used himself and the rest of the remnant of believers in his day as proof of that.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

No one has been replaced. Gentile believers have been grafted in with Israelite believers. Stop making strawman arguments and pay attention to what others actually believe.


Explain this then...

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. 33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

The NIV is a better translation? Ummm, no. I disagree. The NIV itself is known to be a butchery of scripture, but that's another topic entirely.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

You accuse people of believing in replacement theology, but can't even answer a simple question about who Amils think is supposedly being replaced. Do you want to be taken seriously or not?

I've already stated to you that Amils, like any other camp, have many varying beliefs along the lines of replacement theology. Some think the Kingdm is for them, or us, or whatever. That I won't paint everyone in that particular camp with one color on another item like this, that's just the right thing to do. Neither you nor I can show each other that you or I was ever elected to represent all in that grouping. Where's your credentials for that if you think you have them?

BTW
.

 

[WPM]

No. This dispensation of grace toward all was not prophesied because it was a mystery hidden in God until revealed to Paul. That's what is written. What scholars say is of no absolute consequence. That the Lord chose to implement what was hidden from all others is His prerogative. That salvation came to Genties apart from having to join with Israel is an amazing interruption of the way things were, and is revealed to us that, had Satan and his prince demons known of that, they would not have "...crucified the Lord of glory."

That this dispensation of grace was not known to the prophets...so what? That's a no-brainer to the honest student of scripture.

It's also a given that replacement theology, with all its warps and twists of scripture, has some throwing a doctrinal fit, but none of that will ever change biblical truth.

BTW

Congratulations, you just avoided every single point I made. You have to. That just about sums up Premillennialism.

You're response consists of: ignore the facts and push your personal private statements. That's not the way it works. You clearly do not have an argument. You have no rebuttal. I refer you back to my last unaddressed post.

 

[WPM]

No. This dispensation of grace toward all was not prophesied because it was a mystery hidden in God until revealed to Paul. That's what is written. What scholars say is of no absolute consequence. That the Lord chose to implement what was hidden from all others is His prerogative. That salvation came to Genties apart from having to join with Israel is an amazing interruption of the way things were, and is revealed to us that, had Satan and his prince demons known of that, they would not have "...crucified the Lord of glory."

That this dispensation of grace was not known to the prophets...so what? That's a no-brainer to the honest student of scripture.

It's also a given that replacement theology, with all its warps and twists of scripture, has some throwing a doctrinal fit, but none of that will ever change biblical truth.

BTW

You present zero Scripture to support your opinions. I refer you back to the multiple Scriptures that refute your teaching in the post you ignored.

 

[WPM]

No. This dispensation of grace toward all was not prophesied because it was a mystery hidden in God until revealed to Paul. That's what is written. What scholars say is of no absolute consequence. That the Lord chose to implement what was hidden from all others is His prerogative. That salvation came to Genties apart from having to join with Israel is an amazing interruption of the way things were, and is revealed to us that, had Satan and his prince demons known of that, they would not have "...crucified the Lord of glory."

That this dispensation of grace was not known to the prophets...so what? That's a no-brainer to the honest student of scripture.

It's also a given that replacement theology, with all its warps and twists of scripture, has some throwing a doctrinal fit, but none of that will ever change biblical truth.

BTW

LOL, I showed you how the cross was predicted from the beginning. Why will you not accept that? Can you not see that? How do you deny that when Scripture plainly reveals that? It seems like: what you've been taught trumps what the Bible says. Just because it cuts across your taught-theology does not negate it.

The saints were under grace throughout the Old Testament. Ask Adam, and Eve, Able, Noah, Abraham, Samson, Gideon, David, etc, etc. We have been under grace from the beginning.

Once again: who do you think Amils think they have replaced?