The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics - see the evidence

[PinSeeker]

I've already stated to you that Amils, like any other camp, have many varying beliefs along the lines of replacement theology.

Hmmm, well, there are varying opinions about what "replacement theology" even is. But... I'm amillennial; I've been very clear about that... millennialism of any sort really has only to do with where God's "millennium" or "thousand years" of Revelation 20:1-6 falls in the order of things and its timing in relation to Jesus's return. In that sense we are all "millennialists" of one kind or another. But there has never been and never will be any "replacement," as far as who God's people were and are. Anyone, regardless of how they understand this millennium, who thinks that one group has replaced another as God's people is sorely mistaken. Gentiles are included now, since the coming of Jesus, in God's Israel, "no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord" (Ephesians 2:19-21), and thanks be to God for that. Now, even Gentiles are included, for "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus, and if we are Christ’s, then we are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:27-29).

So again, "replacement" of any kind? Absolutely not. Inclusion, rather than replacement or exclusion. And as such, even as Gentiles, we can read of the history of the Israelites in the Old Testament and identify intensely with them; indeed, they are us and we are them. For all of us in Christ, this is, together, our story. Together ~ as Peter says ~ we are all "in the sight of God chosen and precious... like living stones... being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. It's an inclusion, not a replacement.

Some think the Kingdm is for them, or us...

Yeah, not "or"... or "instead of"... But rather and... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

No. This dispensation of grace toward all was not prophesied because it was a mystery hidden in God until revealed to Paul. That's what is written.

Not according to Paul.

Acts 20
24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Romans 1
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

No mystery there.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hmmm, well, there are varying opinions about what "replacement theology" even is. But... I'm amillennial; I've been very clear about that... millennialism of any sort really has only to do with where God's "millennium" or "thousand years" of Revelation 20:1-6 falls in the order of things and its timing in relation to Jesus's return. In that sense we are all "millennialists" of one kind or another.

Yes and no. The difference between a literal thousand year period in which national Israel obtains her ultimate hope and a symbolic Millennium that is operating today in the Church is significant and substantial. We believe the Bible when it states that a Millennium of some sort exists in the plan of God. But how we view it really controls how we define Israel, or even "replace" it with something else.

Does native Israel retain her national hope to be fulfilled in the Millennium? Amillennialists do not think so, and believe that hope, which many have had, has been replaced with the Christianization of many nations in the present age.

But there has never been and never will be any "replacement," as far as who God's people were and are.

It is not just the admission that Israel in Canaan and Jews have existed in history that renders one *not* supporting "replacement." Rather, it is the idea that one definition of "Israel" is being replaced with another.

The ancient definition of Israel indicataed the nation that found a home in Canaan and developed a theocracy under King David. After the Northern Kingdom of Israel went away, the Southern Kingdom of Judah absorbed what remained of all 12 tribes and was defined as "Israel."

Today, Amillennialists and others have suggested the the superseding New Covenant required a redefinition of Israel to exclude native Jews who don't convert to Christianity. Retroactively, some of these "Supersessionits" go back to claim that ancient Israel did not really include all Israelis if they did not have "faith."

This is a "replacement" of what many see as the conventional definition of "Israel." And Israel *never* included the International Church. A more narrow term has been therefore "replaced" with a much more expansive term--one that does not even properly fit in a Dicitonary definition of "Israel."

Anyone, regardless of how they understand this millennium, who thinks that one group has replaced another as God's people is sorely mistaken.

Not at all. You've completely ignored the point that an entire people under covenant of Law were viewed as "God's People," and now are being denied that status if they didn't have "faith." Does a Jew stop being a Jew because he doesn't have Christian faith? No.

On the other hand, do non-Jewish Christians become "Jews" or "Israel" if they have Christian faith? Of course not!

And yet, some amillennialists are saying just that, which is the very definition of "Replacement Theology." The normal definition of "Israeli" and "Jew" is being replaced with another definition of 'Israeli" and "Jew." That you can't see this is amazing to me.

I think the real problem is that Premillennialists take literally the promise that unbelieving Israel will become a believing nation again in the Millennium, because it isn't happening in the present age. And Amillennialists look at and define "Israel" based on their ideal outcome, which today looks not like unbelieving Israel but the international Church. They do not wish to believe that ideal Israel can be defined prematurely as a nation that has not yet committed to faith.

 

[WPM]

Yes and no. The difference between a literal thousand year period in which national Israel obtains her ultimate hope and a symbolic Millennium that is operating today in the Church is significant and substantial. We believe the Bible when it states that a Millennium of some sort exists in the plan of God. But how we view it really controls how we define Israel, or even "replace" it with something else.

Does native Israel retain her national hope to be fulfilled in the Millennium? Amillennialists do not think so, and believe that hope, which many have had, has been replaced with the Christianization of many nations in the present age.

It is not just the admission that Israel in Canaan and Jews have existed in history that renders one *not* supporting "replacement." Rather, it is the idea that one definition of "Israel" is being replaced with another.

The ancient definition of Israel indicataed the nation that found a home in Canaan and developed a theocracy under King David. After the Northern Kingdom of Israel went away, the Southern Kingdom of Judah absorbed what remained of all 12 tribes and was defined as "Israel."

Today, Amillennialists and others have suggested the the superseding New Covenant required a redefinition of Israel to exclude native Jews who don't convert to Christianity. Retroactively, some of these "Supersessionits" go back to claim that ancient Israel did not really include all Israelis if they did not have "faith."

This is a "replacement" of what many see as the conventional definition of "Israel." And Israel *never* included the International Church. A more narrow term has been therefore "replaced" with a much more expansive term--one that does not even properly fit in a Dicitonary definition of "Israel."

Not at all. You've completely ignored the point that an entire people under covenant of Law were viewed as "God's People," and now are being denied that status if they didn't have "faith." Does a Jew stop being a Jew because he doesn't have Christian faith? No.

On the other hand, do non-Jewish Christians become "Jews" or "Israel" if they have Christian faith? Of course not!

And yet, some amillennialists are saying just that, which is the very definition of "Replacement Theology." The normal definition of "Israeli" and "Jew" is being replaced with another definition of 'Israeli" and "Jew." That you can't see this is amazing to me.

I think the real problem is that Premillennialists take literally the promise that unbelieving Israel will become a believing nation again in the Millennium, because it isn't happening in the present age. And Amillennialists look at and define "Israel" based on their ideal outcome, which today looks not like unbelieving Israel but the international Church. They do not wish to believe that ideal Israel can be defined prematurely as a nation that has not yet committed to faith.

1. What percentage Jewish DNA qualified them to be classed as "the Jewish Church"?
2. What percentage Gentile DNA disqualified them from being classed as "the Jewish Church"?
3. What percentage Gentile DNA qualified them to be classed as "the Gentile Church"?
4. What percentage Jewish DNA disqualified them from being classed as "the Gentile Church"?
5. What Dispensatanist teacher are you getting these 2 distinct Churches from?
6. Did Jesus not come to eternally break down the wall of division between Jew and Gentile 2000 years ago through the cross?

 

[WPM]

I think the real problem is that Premillennialists take literally the promise that unbelieving Israel will become a believing nation again in the Millennium, because it isn't happening in the present age. And Amillennialists look at and define "Israel" based on their ideal outcome, which today looks not like unbelieving Israel but the international Church. They do not wish to believe that ideal Israel can be defined prematurely as a nation that has not yet committed to faith.

Really? Where does it teach that in Rev 20? It seems like you have made a habit of forcing what you have been taught on the sacred text.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes and no.

You're welcome to you opinion, of course...

The difference between a literal thousand year period in which national Israel obtains her ultimate hope and a symbolic Millennium that is operating today in the Church is significant and substantial.

I agree that it's a significant, substantial difference... <smile> ...and it has significant, substantial ramifications, for sure...

We believe the Bible when it states that a Millennium of some sort exists in the plan of God.

Right, which is what I said when I said that "in that sense we are all "millennialists" of one kind or another."

But how we view it really controls how we define Israel...

Ah, well I would say that how we view it, not "controls," but really depends on how we define Israel... really who God's Israel consists of Biblically.

...or even "replace" it with something else.

As I said, there is no replacement of any kind.

Does native Israel retain her national hope to be fulfilled in the Millennium?

Yes. But who is "native Israel," Randy? Keeping in mind what Paul says regarding Isreal in Romans 2:28-29 and 9-11, Ephesians 2:11-22, and Galatians 3:27-29, as cited above? Who is God's Israel? Does God's Israel only include ethnic Jews? Are the true Jews of God, the members of His household, limited to human beings of Jewish ethnicity?

Amillennialists do not think so...

They do, at least "good" amillennialists... like me... <smile> Amillennialists, Randy, disagree with many regarding who "native Israel" really is. See above.

Today, Amillennialists and others have suggested the superseding New Covenant required a redefinition of Israel to exclude native Jews who don't convert to Christianity.

There was no "superceding." But there was ALWAYS a difference between physical, ethnic Israel and God's Israel. At one time, God's Israel consisted mostly ~ mostly because there were some "strangers and aliens," as Paul calls them in Ephesians 2, brought in to Israel (which was a foreshadowing of the grafting in of believing Gentiles upon the coming of Jesus). As Paul says in Romans 9:6-8, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

Retroactively, some of these "Supersessionits" go back to claim that ancient Israel did not really include all Israelis if they did not have "faith."

Who are you talking about when you say "ancient Israel?" Now that question is rhetorical; I know very well your answer to that. But again, Paul in Romans 9:6 says, explicitly, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel..." And this is true both retroactively and proactively. Paul says nothing to indicate that was true only from that time forward. Remember who he himself defined God's Israel and true Jews of God at the end of Romans 2 ~ "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." (vv.28-29).

This is a "replacement" of what many see as the conventional definition of "Israel."

AH! Okay, well, a "replacement" in the sense of correction. <smile>

And Israel *never* included the International Church. A more narrow term has been therefore "replaced" with a much more expansive term--one that does not even properly fit in a Dictionary definition of "Israel."

Ah, well, the only relevant "dictionary" here is the Bible. Randy. Okay, look: There is a physical Israel, and it consists of ethnic Jews. But God's true Israel is much bigger than that, inclusive of all those called by God, all those born again of the Holy Spirit and in Christ.

Not at all.

Yes, I'll say it again. Anyone, regardless of how they understand this millennium, who thinks that one group has replaced another as God's people is sorely mistaken.

You've completely ignored the point that an entire people under covenant of Law were viewed as "God's People"

Absolutely not. See above. And I would argue that even before Jesus came, those truly of God's Israel we never under the covenant of the Law. You surely remember what Paul said on this subject in Galatians, that "the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith..." Two things about this passage:

• So, 'guardian' here is also translated in some versions as 'tutor.' This tells us what God's purposes were with the ceremonial and civil laws of the Old Testament. Everything in the Law always pointed to Jesus Christ, and God's people were to observe those laws in faith. There could be a large conversation on this, but I think we can sum it up in this one question: Who, Randy... Who... <smile> ...Who is... Well, I'm sure you will remember in Leviticus the sacrifices that were to be made, specifically the lamb without blemish. Who is the true Lamb without blemish? Who is the Lamb of God? I'm... pretty sure you will get that right... <smile>
• Regarding "now that faith has come," I wouldn't recommend taking Paul's words here and saying then that faith was and is only possible for folks only in New Testament times. The writer of Hebrews (chapter 11, specifically) would disagree with you on that... <smile>

and now are being denied that status if they didn't have "faith."

But they did. See above.

Does a Jew stop being a Jew because he doesn't have Christian faith? No.

Well, my assertion to you would be that if he doesn't have Christian faith, he or she is not a true Jew of God. Whether he or she is ethnically Jewish or not. And this was always true. See above.

On the other hand, do non-Jewish Christians become "Jews" or "Israel" if they have Christian faith? Of course not!

Well not of ethnic Israel, no, but the Israel of God, of His household, yes... absolutely yes. This is what it means to be grafted in, and thus sharing in the nourishing Root (Romans 11:17) which Paul is absolutely clear about in Romans 11. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).

And yet, some amillennialists are saying just that, which is the very definition of "Replacement Theology." The normal definition of "Israeli" and "Jew" is being replaced with another definition of 'Israeli" and "Jew." That you can't see this is amazing to me.

What's actually happening here, Randy ~ and why it's amazing to you, actually ~ is that you're conflating physical, ethnic Israel with God's true Israel. And it's not just you; you're surely not alone in doing that, but... it is what it is. You either can't or won't (or both) distinguish between ethnic Israel ~ which is outward, using Paul's language at the end of Romans 2 ~ and God's true Israel ~ which is inward, and of the Spirit, again using Paul's language at the end of Romans 2. And again, the more correct term would be "inclusion theology." Because of this inclusion, we Gentiles are included now and are, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:19-22, "fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord... in him (we) also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." That you can't see this is... well... amazing to me.

I think the real problem is that Premillennialists take literally the promise that unbelieving Israel will become a believing nation again in the Millennium, because it isn't happening in the present age.

Hmmm... maybe, but they fail to understand what I just finished explaining also. There are Messianic Jews, though, and these Jews are true Jews of God, members of His household, His Israel.

And Amillennialists look at and define "Israel" based on their ideal outcome...

Nope. The same way as directly above. God's Israel includes people of every tongue, tribe, and nation.

They do not wish to believe that ideal Israel can be defined prematurely as a nation that has not yet committed to faith.

Sorry, I don't even understand this statement. To this, I guess I would just say it is what it is. And again, it always was, beginning with the first (veiled, somewhat) proclamation of the Gospel, Genesis 3:15. See above.

Grace and peace to you, Randy.

 

[Bladerunner]

The difference between a literal thousand year period in which national Israel obtains her ultimate hope and a symbolic Millennium that is operating today in the Church is significant and substantial. We believe the Bible when it states that a Millennium of some sort exists in the plan of God. But how we view it really controls how we define Israel, or even "replace" it with something else.

I would have to agree with this. If we make everything in His word an Allegory which means something that man has decided what it means, then we are and forever lost. For "Hath God Said" is a no but rather God has only said after man tell Him what it means.

Does native Israel retain her national hope to be fulfilled in the Millennium? Amillennialists do not think so, and believe that hope, which many have had, has been replaced with the Christianization of many nations in the present age.

In Matthew 24, Israel was told by Jesus that the Millennium on earth, a physical presence of a spiritual millennium as many think.

It is not just the admission that Israel in Canaan and Jews have existed in history that renders one *not* supporting "replacement." Rather, it is the idea that one definition of "Israel" is being replaced with another.

Unfortunately, the whole world will hate Israel and we see this today. In fact, but for a small number of true believers in both Israel and His Word, the majority of earth dwellers believe that Israel gave up her right to God's promises (covenants) concerning their inheritance. God will not let the nation of Israel fall under gentile rule again. In fact, the idea of a two Nation solution will ultimately fail. God will not let His People not His Land be divided again.

The ancient definition of Israel indicataed the nation that found a home in Canaan and developed a theocracy under King David. After the Northern Kingdom of Israel went away, the Southern Kingdom of Judah absorbed what remained of all 12 tribes and was defined as "Israel."

The Northern Kingdom was destroyed by GOD's instrument of judgement, Assyria. Before this happened, those who did not believe in the idolatry of the north, had already migrated to the south and those in the south who believed in Idolatry had migrated to the north. Thus, there are NO lost tribes of Israel and many will speculate. Te 12 tribes, the sons of Jacob (Israel) and Rebecca remained in the southern part of what would become Israel. Todays Israel does not share the shores (the coast) off of the Mediterranean.

Today, Amillennialists and others have suggested the the superseding New Covenant required a redefinition of Israel to exclude native Jews who don't convert to Christianity. Retroactively, some of these "Supersessionits" go back to claim that ancient Israel did not really include all Israelis if they did not have "faith."

Unfortunately, you are correct. this is only a small amount of what constitutes the Ammillennialist beliefs. Th New Covenant (Eze 36:22-34)will be given to the remnant of just before they enter the Millennium on Earth. The fact that that these Supra people have taken away (in their minds) Israel will be an abomination to GOD...as He states in Gen 12:3-4 that he will bless those who help Israel and condemn those who will not help Israel.

This is a "replacement" of what many see as the conventional definition of "Israel." And Israel *never* included the International Church. A more narrow term has been therefore "replaced" with a much more expansive term--one that does not even properly fit in a Dicitonary definition of "Israel."

agree

Not at all. You've completely ignored the point that an entire people under covenant of Law were viewed as "God's People," and now are being denied that status if they didn't have "faith." Does a Jew stop being a Jew because he doesn't have Christian faith? No.

On the other hand, do non-Jewish Christians become "Jews" or "Israel" if they have Christian faith? Of course not!

agree

And yet, some amillennialists are saying just that, which is the very definition of "Replacement Theology." The normal definition of "Israeli" and "Jew" is being replaced with another definition of 'Israeli" and "Jew." That you can't see this is amazing to me.

Exasperating to say the least.

I think the real problem is that Premillennialists take literally the promise that unbelieving Israel will become a believing nation again in the Millennium, because it isn't happening in the present age.

As a premillennialists and I agree with your words. God has two plans and has promised Israel to be in the land He gave them and nothing is going to stop that.

And Amillennialists look at and define "Israel" based on their ideal outcome, which today looks not like unbelieving Israel but the international Church. They do not wish to believe that ideal Israel can be defined prematurely as a nation that has not yet committed to faith.

In essence, the Ammillennialists believe there will be no millennium on earth and that all parts or Revelation has already happened in the first century. That Israel, being unfaithful will not be should not be allowed the land that God gave them. This is a few among many other points of believe...simply taken, Ammillennialist do not believe in the word of GOD without changing it to their world view. This is not good for them that believe this way for All of GOD's words are true and He will protect them for an eternity.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The NIV is a better translation? Ummm, no. I disagree. The NIV itself is known to be a butchery of scripture, but that's another topic entirely.

BTW

In this case, it translated the verse better. No English translation is perfect. The Bible was not originally written in English. So, any argument you make related to this topic is likely biased and weak because there is no basis for acting as if any English translation is perfect. But, the fact of the matter is that there is just one gospel. Paul made it clear that anyone who tries to preach any other gospel than the one gospel of Christ would be cursed. You failed to take everything Paul wrote into account when interpreting Galatians 2:7.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've already stated to you that Amils, like any other camp, have many varying beliefs along the lines of replacement theology.

So, answer the simple question already. Who do you think Amils claim are being replaced and/or have been replaced?

Some think the Kingdm is for them, or us, or whatever. That I won't paint everyone in that particular camp with one color on another item like this, that's just the right thing to do. Neither you nor I can show each other that you or I was ever elected to represent all in that grouping. Where's your credentials for that if you think you have them?

I don't know what you were intending to say here. Can you try again?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In essence, the Ammillennialists believe there will be no millennium on earth and that all parts or Revelation has already happened in the first century.

Please stop being ignorant. Make more of an effort to learn what Amillennialists actually believe. There are some Amils, who are partial preterists, who might agree with what you're saying here, but there are many Amils who are not partial preterists and who do not claim that all of Revelation already happened in the first century. The book of Revelation is not a preterist book nor a futurist book. It is a book about the past before it was written, the present at the time it was written and the future from the time it was written.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

That Israel, being unfaithful will not be should not be allowed the land that God gave them. This is a few among many other points of believe...simply taken, Ammillennialist do not believe in the word of GOD without changing it to their world view.

Absolute nonsense. You have no idea of what you're talking about at all. What Amils believe is that God expanded what He promised them to the entire earth and He included Gentile believers in His plans. Have you never read Hebrews 11:8-16? It talks about how Abraham, Isaac and Jacob dwelt in the promised land but consider it to be a strange country and they then started looking for a heavenly country instead. Why are you not looking for what Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were looking for?

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Can you see here how Abraham, Isaac and Jacob originally looked for "the land of promise" on the earth, but then realized they were in "a strange country" and that "they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" and they then instead started looking "for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" and desired "a better country, that is, an heavenly". Why are you expecting that Israel will be given a piece of land in the Middle East when the reality is that all believers, Jew and Gentile, should be looking for a heavenly country and a city whose builder and make is God instead?

This is not good for them that believe this way for All of GOD's words are true and He will protect them for an eternity.

It's not good for you to not believe what is clearly taught in the New Testament. I have found that all Premils, including you, are very ignorant about what is taught in the New Testament, including passages like Hebrews 11:8-16.

 

[PinSeeker]

If we make everything in His word an Allegory...

No one does. That's the allegation, but no one does. And even if we call amillennialists' understanding of, say, Revelation 20, an allegory (which shouldn't be done), that can't then be extrapolated onto every other think in God's Word. That's just silly.

God has two plans...

Just one. There is no need for a "Plan B." <smile> One people, one plan ~ "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25-26).

and has promised Israel to be in the land He gave them and nothing is going to stop that.

Well, I agree, actually, but the land is far greater than you suppose. Everything in the Old Testament, including the promised land, was a shadow of the greater reality to come. Jesus, as I hope you will remember, said, in Matthew 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."

In essence, the Ammillennialists believe there will be no millennium on earth...

No, but that we are presently in the millennium. The term "amillennialism' is a misnomer, because the Latin prefix "a" can give that impression; the more accurate term would be "nunc-millennialism," the Latin 'nunc' meaning 'now.'

and that all parts or Revelation has already happened in the first century.

No, that they...

...of which there are many iterations, synonymous with what Jesus describes in Matthew 24 as many coming in His name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and leading many astray... wars and rumors of wars... nation rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and famines and earthquakes in various places...​

​

...began happening in the first century and still occur to this day. Surely you hear and see these things, especially with this great thing we call the internet... <smile>

That Israel, being unfaithful will not be should not be allowed the land that God gave them.

No, the meek shall inherit the earth; that's still true... <smile>

simply taken, Ammillennialist do not believe in the word of GOD without changing it to their world view.

Ah, "simple." I mean, that's precisely the problem... taking things far, far too simply.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Bladerunner]

Ah, well I would say that how we view it, not "controls," but really depends on how we define Israel... really who God's Israel consists of Biblically.

No it really depends on how you read the Word of God..For it you read it with allegories in it, then you can make it say anything which will make Israel appear to what one believes.

As I said, there is no replacement of any kind.

Sure there is..Do you believe that the remnant of Israel will live on earth for 1000 years in Israel being the governing body over the whole world with Jesus Christ in a temple not built by human hands as the ruler of the entire world.

Yes. But who is "native Israel," Randy? Keeping in mind what Paul says regarding Isreal in Romans 2:28-29 and 9-11, Ephesians 2:11-22, and Galatians 3:27-29, as cited above? Who is God's Israel? Does God's Israel only include ethnic Jews? Are the true Jews of God, the members of His household, limited to human beings of Jewish ethnicity?

If one looks at Romans, 9,10 and 11, one can come away with the Past, Present and Futures of Israel. Rem, Jesus Blinded Israel on His second day in Jerusalem and they are still blinded today. otherwise the 60% LGPT alphabet peoplee would not be there.

There was no "superceding." But there was ALWAYS a difference between physical, ethnic Israel and God's Israel. At one time, God's Israel consisted mostly ~ mostly because there were some "strangers and aliens," as Paul calls them in Ephesians 2, brought in to Israel (which was a foreshadowing of the grafting in of believing Gentiles upon the coming of Jesus). As Paul says in Romans 9:6-8, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

Here Paul is speaking of Israel as those who believe in the word of GOD.

Who are you talking about when you say "ancient Israel?" Now that question is rhetorical; I know very well your answer to that. But again, Paul in Romans 9:6 says, explicitly, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel..." And this is true both retroactively and proactively. Paul says nothing to indicate that was true only from that time forward. Remember who he himself defined God's Israel and true Jews of God at the end of Romans 2 ~ "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." (vv.28-29).


AH! Okay, well, a "replacement" in the sense of correction. <smile>


Ah, well, the only relevant "dictionary" here is the Bible. Randy. Okay, look: There is a physical Israel, and it consists of ethnic Jews. But God's true Israel is much bigger than that, inclusive of all those called by God, all those born again of the Holy Spirit and in Christ.

Ok, here is where you go off the track. The Jews of all nations including those of Israel should be considered God's People. Those Jews that ave become true Believer's in in the Gospel of Jesus Christ are among the Church that Jesus built. This sprititual church consist of one body with no monikers among it. They are one, the Bride of Jesus Christ, His Body.

Yes, I'll say it again. Anyone, regardless of how they understand this millennium, who thinks that one group has replaced another as God's people is sorely mistaken.


Absolutely not. See above. And I would argue that even before Jesus came, those truly of God's Israel we never under the covenant of the Law.

God's people where under the laws of Moses until John the Baptist. The Prophet and Law ended here. The period of the Church (Jesus' church that He built) had begun and is still in effect until the Rapture take the Saints of this church home to Heaven.

You surely remember what Paul said on this subject in Galatians, that "the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith..." Two things about this passage:

• So, 'guardian' here is also translated in some versions as 'tutor.' This tells us what God's purposes were with the ceremonial and civil laws of the Old Testament. Everything in the Law always pointed to Jesus Christ, and God's people were to observe those laws in faith. There could be a large conversation on this, but I think we can sum it up in this one question: Who, Randy... Who... <smile> ...Who is... Well, I'm sure you will remember in Leviticus the sacrifices that were to be made, specifically the lamb without blemish. Who is the true Lamb without blemish? Who is the Lamb of God? I'm... pretty sure you will get that right... <smile>
• Regarding "now that faith has come," I wouldn't recommend taking Paul's words here and saying then that faith was and is only possible for folks only in New Testament times. The writer of Hebrews (chapter 11, specifically) would disagree with you on that... <smile>

But they did. See above.


Well, my assertion to you would be that if he doesn't have Christian faith, he or she is not a true Jew of God. Whether he or she is ethnically Jewish or not. And this was always true. See above.

Rem, they are still partially blinded and cannot see the truth.

Well not of ethnic Israel, no, but the Israel of God, of His household, yes... absolutely yes. This is what it means to be grafted in, and thus sharing in the nourishing Root (Romans 11:17) which Paul is absolutely clear about in Romans 11. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).

Those who believe in Jesus' gospel will be be grafted in and given the New Covenant. Those Jews in Israel (Judah) who believe in Jesus will flee to the southern mountains for protection of GOD. All other Jews will die. Rem 1/3 of the Jews will become the remnant of Israel and live on earth in Israel during the 1000 years with Christ as ruler. The other 2/3 will die by the hands of the gentiles and will face the Great WHite Throne Judgement after the Millennium has run its course.

c.




Nope. The same way as directly above. God's Israel includes people of every tongue, tribe, and nation.

No, they do not.. for Israel during the millennium will live on earth (physically) in the Land that GOD gave Abraham. The Gentiles that are judged to be the Sheep will live in their own lands under the rule of Jesus Christ. Israel will be the capital of the world.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I would have to agree with this. If we make everything in His word an Allegory which means something that man has decided what it means, then we are and forever lost. For "Hath God Said" is a no but rather God has only said after man tell Him what it means.

In Matthew 24, Israel was told by Jesus that the Millennium on earth, a physical presence of a spiritual millennium as many think.

Unfortunately, the whole world will hate Israel and we see this today. In fact, but for a small number of true believers in both Israel and His Word, the majority of earth dwellers believe that Israel gave up her right to God's promises (covenants) concerning their inheritance. God will not let the nation of Israel fall under gentile rule again. In fact, the idea of a two Nation solution will ultimately fail. God will not let His People not His Land be divided again.

The Northern Kingdom was destroyed by GOD's instrument of judgement, Assyria. Before this happened, those who did not believe in the idolatry of the north, had already migrated to the south and those in the south who believed in Idolatry had migrated to the north. Thus, there are NO lost tribes of Israel and many will speculate. Te 12 tribes, the sons of Jacob (Israel) and Rebecca remained in the southern part of what would become Israel. Todays Israel does not share the shores (the coast) off of the Mediterranean.

Unfortunately, you are correct. this is only a small amount of what constitutes the Ammillennialist beliefs. Th New Covenant (Eze 36:22-34)will be given to the remnant of just before they enter the Millennium on Earth. The fact that that these Supra people have taken away (in their minds) Israel will be an abomination to GOD...as He states in Gen 12:3-4 that he will bless those who help Israel and condemn those who will not help Israel.

agree

agree

Exasperating to say the least.

As a premillennialists and I agree with your words. God has two plans and has promised Israel to be in the land He gave them and nothing is going to stop that.

In essence, the Ammillennialists believe there will be no millennium on earth and that all parts or Revelation has already happened in the first century. That Israel, being unfaithful will not be should not be allowed the land that God gave them. This is a few among many other points of believe...simply taken, Ammillennialist do not believe in the word of GOD without changing it to their world view. This is not good for them that believe this way for All of GOD's words are true and He will protect them for an eternity.

It is so good to hear the voice of Common Sense, as well as faith in God's eternal promise to Israel. I try to be friendly with Premillennialists--in fact, some are quite good friends. But some are insistent on their view to the point of insult--sad that is. Brothers and sisters should be able to agree agreeably, so that we give time to the Holy Spirit to deal with our hearts and convince our minds as to what is true.

It's sad that the love of Christ does not always win out in these arguments. But I do completely agree with you, just as you agreed with me. Israel isn't finished yet. In fact, they're just beginning, as I see it.

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes and no. The difference between a literal thousand year period in which national Israel obtains her ultimate hope and a symbolic Millennium that is operating today in the Church is significant and substantial. We believe the Bible when it states that a Millennium of some sort exists in the plan of God. But how we view it really controls how we define Israel, or even "replace" it with something else.

Does native Israel retain her national hope to be fulfilled in the Millennium? Amillennialists do not think so, and believe that hope, which many have had, has been replaced with the Christianization of many nations in the present age.

It is not just the admission that Israel in Canaan and Jews have existed in history that renders one *not* supporting "replacement." Rather, it is the idea that one definition of "Israel" is being replaced with another.

The ancient definition of Israel indicataed the nation that found a home in Canaan and developed a theocracy under King David. After the Northern Kingdom of Israel went away, the Southern Kingdom of Judah absorbed what remained of all 12 tribes and was defined as "Israel."

Today, Amillennialists and others have suggested the the superseding New Covenant required a redefinition of Israel to exclude native Jews who don't convert to Christianity. Retroactively, some of these "Supersessionits" go back to claim that ancient Israel did not really include all Israelis if they did not have "faith."

This is a "replacement" of what many see as the conventional definition of "Israel." And Israel *never* included the International Church. A more narrow term has been therefore "replaced" with a much more expansive term--one that does not even properly fit in a Dicitonary definition of "Israel."

Not at all. You've completely ignored the point that an entire people under covenant of Law were viewed as "God's People," and now are being denied that status if they didn't have "faith." Does a Jew stop being a Jew because he doesn't have Christian faith? No.

On the other hand, do non-Jewish Christians become "Jews" or "Israel" if they have Christian faith? Of course not!

And yet, some amillennialists are saying just that, which is the very definition of "Replacement Theology." The normal definition of "Israeli" and "Jew" is being replaced with another definition of 'Israeli" and "Jew." That you can't see this is amazing to me.

I think the real problem is that Premillennialists take literally the promise that unbelieving Israel will become a believing nation again in the Millennium, because it isn't happening in the present age. And Amillennialists look at and define "Israel" based on their ideal outcome, which today looks not like unbelieving Israel but the international Church. They do not wish to believe that ideal Israel can be defined prematurely as a nation that has not yet committed to faith.

You continue to misrepresent amillennialists. We are not replacing the normal definition of "Israeli" and "Jew". We believe in 2 Israels and 2 types of Jews. No one is replaced. If you want to continue wasting your time making that strawman argument, that's up to you, but it's time that you can never get back. Just think about that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I would have to agree with this. If we make everything in His word an Allegory which means something that man has decided what it means, then we are and forever lost. For "Hath God Said" is a no but rather God has only said after man tell Him what it means.

This accusation that you make towards Amillennialists of making "everything in His word an Allegory" is just a false accusation made from ignorance. Amillennialism is based on literal, clear, straightforward scriptures like these...

Revelation 20 talks about the reign of Christ. Scripture explicitly teaches that Christ began to reign after His resurrection.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Revelation 20:6 says that those who reign with Christ are "priests of God and of Christ". Scripture teaches that Christ's followers are priests right now.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Scripture teaches that all believers will have their bodies changed to be immortal while inheriting eternal life in the kingdom of God when Christ returns at the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:50-54, Matthew 25:31-46). And it teaches that all unbelievers will be destroyed when He returns which would not allow for any mortals to populate the earth at that point, as the following scriptures indicate.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men....10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Scripture also teaches that the saved and lost will be resurrected at generally the same time or hour and then judged.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Scripture teaches that all people will be judged at the same time and not that there will be multiple judgments as Premills believe.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world....41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 13:40 As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

All of these clear, straightforward scriptures I have referenced support Amillennialism. Some Premills like you try to accuse Amills of allegorizing scripture, but, as I've shown, the foundation of Amillennialism is clear, straightforward scriptures which are used to help interpret more difficult passages. Premillennialism has no such clear, straightforward scriptures to support it.

 

[Bladerunner]

No one does. That's the allegation, but no one does. And even if we call amillennialists' understanding of, say, Revelation 20, an allegory (which shouldn't be done), that can't then be extrapolated onto every other think in God's Word. That's just silly.

Sure they do...To be an Ammillennialist, a none believer in the Millennium the rule of Jesus Christ physically on earth, they have to twist God's words. No doubt about it.

Just one. There is no need for a "Plan B." <smile> One people, one plan ~ "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25-26).

Yes, I agree with that..and there is two plans.The Gentiles and the Jews. This is where the true colors of ones beliefs come out...The Remant of Israel will come out of the 1/3 of Jews who flee Judah when they see the Abomination of Desolate take place. One can see this happen in Rev. 12. Yet, many including Vodie Baulkum allegorize these events as something that has already happened.

Well, I agree, actually, but the land is far greater than you suppose. Everything in the Old Testament, including the promised land, was a shadow of the greater reality to come. Jesus, as I hope you will remember, said, in Matthew 5:5, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."

Yes, the meek will survive at the expense of those who give their lives so the meek and indigent could survive. These two will survive for they have been the instruments of God's will in a nation(s) of Believers in His WORD.

No, but that we are presently in the millennium. The term "amillennialism' is a misnomer, because the Latin prefix "a" can give that impression; the more accurate term would be "nunc-millennialism," the Latin 'nunc' meaning 'now.'

How do you come to that conclusion. Jesus tells us He will restore this old earth back to its original status and the wolf will lay down with the child. This is not spoken of happening in the New Earth but rather the 1000 years of rule of Jesus Christ. It is suppose to be a time of peace for Jesus is ruling with an iron rod. Justice will be dispensed immediately.No, the Millennium is not here yet but it has but a short time to get here for we are in the last days and the last generation that is spoken of in Mat 24 has already seen the beginning of the last days in 1948.

No, that they...

...of which there are many iterations, synonymous with what Jesus describes in Matthew 24 as many coming in His name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and leading many astray... wars and rumors of wars... nation rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and famines and earthquakes in various places...​

Do we not have that right now in the present? Daniel's 70th week is coming and the earth people will crumble in front of His power. 1/4 of the earth population will happen when the WW III happens in the scroll Judgements of GOD. another 1//3 of earth's people will die in the Trumpet Judgement's and countless unknown will die during the bowl judgements. We do know that all in the sea will die, all of it. These are prophecies playing out right now...Be very afraid...for it is coming..get ready.

​

...began happening in the first century and still occur to this day. Surely you hear and see these things, especially with this great thing we call the internet... <smile>

did Jesus come back a second time, if so when?...and how did the whole world see Him in the Clouds above the earth back then....How does all the sea die, over half of earth 7 billion people die off.......please explain...you see it is just an allegory of God's WORD...read them literally, historically and grammatically and you will get the truth.

No, the meek shall inherit the earth; that's still true... <smile>


Ah, "simple." I mean, that's precisely the problem... taking things far, far too simply.

Grace and peace to you.

Taking what to far....will those who do battle for the meek be saved?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure they do...To be an Ammillennialist, a none believer in the Millennium the rule of Jesus Christ physically on earth, they have to twist God's words. No doubt about it.

There's no doubt about the fact that you have no idea of what you're talking about. Tell me, how do you interpret this passage...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Bladerunner]

It is so good to hear the voice of Common Sense, as well as faith in God's eternal promise to Israel. I try to be friendly with Premillennialists--in fact, some are quite good friends. But some are insistent on their view to the point of insult--sad that is. Brothers and sisters should be able to agree agreeably, so that we give time to the Holy Spirit to deal with our hearts and convince our minds as to what is true.

It's sad that the love of Christ does not always win out in these arguments. But I do completely agree with you, just as you agreed with me. Israel isn't finished yet. In fact, they're just beginning, as I see it.

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem!

thank you Randy...I my self am a Pre-millennialist and am glad I can talk to someone outside of this theology in the spirit we are suppose to. May God Bless you.

 

[covenantee]

Daniel's 70th week is coming

Your 70th week will never arrive.

Daniel's did.

 

[Bladerunner]

Your 70th week will never arrive.

Daniel's did.

I see you are of the coventology theology...When the Rapture happens, and it will, you need to remember this day and your words here. Turn away from the coventology theology as fast as you can.