The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)

[ProDeo]

I'd say it has a higher probability of being a parable than the Rich Man and Lazarus. If the latter were a parable, it would be the only parable in the Bible to use specific names, two of which we know were actual historical people. It would also be the only parable to mention the afterlife.

My take is that @Hiddenthings is right, from a previous post on the issue -

----

First of all I read in context, the whole chapter 16, verse 1 starts with The Parable of the Dishonest Manager, the parable ends with -

Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”

Followed by verse 14, the context -

Luk 16:14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.

We can already see the connection, The Pharisees felt attacked (You cannot serve God and money) and sadly they ridiculed Him. And Jesus ridiculed The Pharisees in return with the parable of Rich Man and Poor Man. Theme money and the false beliefs of the The Pharisees. In the parable the rich man stands for The Pharisees.

The false beliefs of The Pharisees -

1. The Bosom of Abraham - it's nowhere in the OT, during the absence of prophets from God for centuries they made that up, look at the development of that false belief.

2. Secondly the description of Hades comes rightly from pagan Greek mythology, another false belief that entered during the absence of prophets from God for centuries.

And so Jesus ridiculed The Pharisees in return, them ending up in their own false beliefs.

 

[ProDeo]

BILLIONS burning in Hell FOREVER will wish it was a parable!

You don't seriously think that when you die you end up at Abraham bosom ?

 

[Hiddenthings]

“And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.” Luke 16:26

Us and you.

Luke 16:26, the Greek uses the plural pronoun hymas (“you [plural]”), not the singular se (“thee”). That small grammatical choice signals that the “rich man” is not just an individual but stands as a representative figure of a larger group.

So that they which would pass . . . cannot The Gk. conjunction suggests that the great gulf is there for that very purpose.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The rich man pleads: “No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent” (Luke 16:30). But Abraham’s answer proves otherwise. The appeal is in vain.

Israel’s history shows this clearly. After Saul consulted the medium at Endor (1 Sam. 28), his end swiftly came, and David was established in his kingdom, proof that rebellion never leads to life, only to judgment. Likewise, when Jesus rose from the dead, the rulers should have repented. Yet instead, “when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers and said, ‘Tell people, his disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep’” (Matt. 28:12–14).

Thus, just as in the parable, even the resurrection did not move them to repentance. Strikingly, the rich man himself admits the need for repentance, but too late.

 

[Hiddenthings]

And so Jesus ridiculed The Pharisees in return, them ending up in their own false beliefs.

That there is as a succinct summary of the parable as I've seen.

Isn't it startling to perceive how many can use their false beliefs to support their own?

 

[Jericho]

1. The Bosom of Abraham - it's nowhere in the OT, during the absence of prophets from God for centuries they made that up, look at the development of that false belief.

Where do you think the pre-Christian saints went when they died?

2. Secondly the description of Hades comes rightly from pagan Greek mythology, another false belief that entered during the absence of prophets from God for centuries.

The Greek words for "hades" and "tartarus" are literally in the New Testament, wouldn't that then make the bible false? Here's another idea, the New Testament writers would have used language that the culture of their day understood and reframed it as a biblical polemic to put it in proper context.

You don't seriously think that when you die you end up at Abraham bosom ?

Abraham's bosom would be vacant now as it served its purpose.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Where do you think the pre-Christian saints went when they died?

Where the Bible states they all are!

Acts 2:29, “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.”

They all understood - what changed for you?

The Greek words for "hades" and "tartarus" are literally in the New Testament, wouldn't that then make the bible false? Here's another idea, the New Testament writers would have used language that the culture of their day understood and reframed it as a biblical polemic to put it in proper context.

Abraham's bosom would be vacant now as it served its purpose.

Abraham hasn't been raised so no one is in his bosom!

Heb 11:39 And all these (Abraham etc), though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 since God had provided something better for us (you Jericho!), that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Not raised and glorified until the Gentiles are all called and chosen!

Your inability to discern the Parable is the reason you cannot accept the Masters teaching.

 

[Ziggy]

What if we take a different path?
What if the story really is about Abraham.
Now Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.
Do you remember the story of how Hagar and Ishmael was left to die in the wilderness and an angel came and showed them water?
Sarah had said:
Gen 21:9
And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
Gen 21:10
Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
Gen 21:11
And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

Luk 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

There are many comparisons to The richman and thebeggar.
A lot of lessons to be learned as well.
Hugs

 

[Hiddenthings]

What if we take a different path?
What if the story really is about Abraham.
Now Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.
Do you remember the story of how Hagar and Ishmael was left to die in the wilderness and an angel came and showed them water?
Sarah had said:
Gen 21:9
And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
Gen 21:10
Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
Gen 21:11
And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

Luk 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

There are many comparisons to The richman and thebeggar.
A lot of lessons to be learned as well.
Hugs

I'll give this further thought before commenting Ziggy!

 

[Ziggy]

Also consider that it is Israel that is losing it's stature and kingdom and to be given to Christ. Christianity was born.
The same battle is raging today. It's both physical and spiritual.
There was a time when you could not say anything demeaning of Israel. You are labeled an antisemite.Even if the calling out is justified.
Jesus called them out all the time, even Paul said they were our enemies for the gospels sake.

At this moment in time there is a reawakening happening. Sometimes bad things God turns them into good things.
But there is going to be a lot of rivalry happening.
Christianity is rising where Israel had always had the control. And Islam is trying to lay down roots.

I just want to say this before I forget....
We're living in that age of deception right now. Not everything you see or hear is true.
Big psychological wargames going on and noone is telling the truth.
Try not to let the media or social media control how you feel or react to certain things.
We're going through an age of shaking.

Heb 12:27
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

Be on your best behavior and don't let the world dictate your path.
Hugs

 

[ProDeo]

Where the Bible states they all are!

Acts 2:29, “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.”

They all understood - what changed for you?


Abraham hasn't been raised so no one is in his bosom!

Heb 11:39 And all these (Abraham etc), though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 since God had provided something better for us (you Jericho!), that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Not raised and glorified until the Gentiles are all called and chosen!

Your inability to discern the Parable is the reason you cannot accept the Masters teaching.

And yet Moses and Elijah were pretty much alive during the transfiguration.

Difficult....

 

[Hiddenthings]

And yet Moses and Elijah were pretty much alive during the transfiguration.

Difficult....

Raised for a single purpose.

Hebrews 11 is conclusive.

 

[Jericho]

Where the Bible states they all are!

Acts 2:29, “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.”

They all understood - what changed for you?

So, you believe in soul sleep, I take it?

 

[Hiddenthings]

So, you believe in soul sleep, I take it?

It's what the Bible teaches - super clear.

Out of interest how do you interpret Hebrews 11:39,40

And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Christ has been raised and made perfect but all those in Hebrews 11 have not.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Jericho just to be clear when I state Jesus as being the one person raised and glorified (made perfect) I'm speaking to Hebrews 5:9

“And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.”

Well firstly what was the imperfection in Christ that he became the source of eternal salvation?

Secondly, how was that perfection achieved?

How did he "become" something he wasn't before?

Here read Hebrews 11 again "since God had provided something better for Jericho, that apart from us (Hidden & Jericho) they (all those mentioned in Hebrews 11) should not be made perfect.

@ProDeo said "difficult"

There are certain realities about Christ, the death state and your hope which the Apostles understood but many here do not.

 

[Jack]

You don't seriously think that when you die you end up at Abraham bosom ?

I don't know, but I know that Bible parables do not use literal Biblical people. Moses, Abraham, Lazarus ...

It is certainly literal and agrees with Jesus.

 

[Jack]

“And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.” Luke 16:26

Us and you.

Luke 16:26, the Greek uses the plural pronoun hymas (“you [plural]”), not the singular se (“thee”). That small grammatical choice signals that the “rich man” is not just an individual but stands as a representative figure of a larger group.

So that they which would pass . . . cannot The Gk. conjunction suggests that the great gulf is there for that very purpose.

Did you receive your Greek 'expertise' at Kingdom Hall?

 

[Jericho]

Where the Bible states they all are!

Acts 2:29, “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.”

They all understood - what changed for you?

Yes, their physical bodies were buried but not their spirit.

Christ has been raised and made perfect but all those in Hebrews 11 have not.

Christ was the first to get a resurrected body, but the rest of us won't get one until He returns at the Second Coming. I think that puts the questions you posed of Hebrews 11 in proper context.

My position is that when the body dies, the spirit\soul departs. We then have a spiritual or heavenly body (whatever you want to call it). When Christ returns, we are given a resurrected body to operate in this world. Given that, how would you reconcile the following verses?

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Co 5:8)

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43)

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2Co 2-4)

 

[GodsGrace]

Where do you think the pre-Christian saints went when they died?



The Greek words for "hades" and "tartarus" are literally in the New Testament, wouldn't that then make the bible false? Here's another idea, the New Testament writers would have used language that the culture of their day understood and reframed it as a biblical polemic to put it in proper context.



Abraham's bosom would be vacant now as it served its purpose.

§This is also for @ProDeo

It's generally accepted that the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is NOT a parable.

However, this is a good thread and the aim is not whether or not it's a parable.

Hades was temporary...a holding place if you will...because the gates of heaven were closed until the sacrifice of Jesus, at which time heaven was opened to those that had already died.

Matthew 27:50-51
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

It happened at the above moment.

I don't wish to derail this thread.

 

[Jack]

Yes, their physical bodies were buried but not their spirit.

That is FACT! The rich man died and was burning and crying and in TORMENT in the fire! Still VERY much alive!

'Death' is the beginning of eternity, not the end as Satan would like us to believe!