I'm a covenantee of the New Everlasting Covenant in the Blood of Messiah the Divine Covenant Confirmer. Daniel 9:27; Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 12:24; Hebrews 13:20
What about you?
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The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics - see the evidence
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What about you?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What in the world does this mean? Are you suggesting that when the rapture happens you think he won't be caught up to meet Christ in the air?
BeforeThereWas
Active Member
Bladerunner
Active Member
Thus you believe in covenant theology.
Me I am a 6 point Calvinist, believe in many point of fundamentalism, dispensationalism. I read the Bible Literally, Historically and Grammatically to get to the truth. I hate to tell you Coventology does not teach the truth of Jesus Christ or of God's word.
BeforeThereWas
Active Member
Bladerunner
Active Member
There are going to be those both elect and non-elect who are left behind. Many Churches will still have many in their pews and many pastors who are teaching their brand of the Word of GOD will still be here. I do not know who they will be but those that are left behind still have a chance to make it to heaven for they can simply not take the mark of the beast and become a marytr of Jesus.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Nonsense. Where do you get that idea from? Show me the scripture you use to back this up. You are basing salvation partly on one's end times doctrine, but such a thing is never taught in scripture. All who have faith in Christ and belong to Him will be caught up to Him after He descends from heaven, regardless of their end times beliefs.
Have you ever read Luke 17:26-37? Your pre-trib rapture belief completely contradicts what Jesus taught there.
Please follow what Jesus taught here in relation to what will happen when He comes again and the rapture occurs.
Luke 17:26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] 37 “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”
Let's start at the beginning to see what Jesus taught in this passage. First, in verses 26 and 27, He talks about the days leading up to His second coming being similar to the days of Noah that preceded the flood. Then He points out that "the flood came and destroyed them all". All who were left behind outside the ark were destroyed, in other words. Then He points out similar things about the days of Lot in comparison to the days leading up to the second coming of Christ and He again points out that all unbelievers who were not taken out from Sodom like Lot and his family were left behind in the city and were destroyed by fire.
Then Jesus points out that no one should try to save their possessions because it will be too late for anyone to do that and anyone doing that is too attached to the world and their life in this world instead of being focused on eternity and being with Jesus like they should be. Lot's wife is given as an example of how we can't be too attached to this world and our lives in this world. That is unacceptable to God for us to love our lives in this world more than we love Him. Lot's wife paid the price for loving the world and her life in this world more than God and that's a warning for everyone.
Then Jesus, using Lot's wife as an example, said that those who want to keep their life, like Lot's wife did, will lose it (will be killed) and whoever loses their life (is willing to give up their lives for God) will preserve it (will be spared and not killed).
Then we get to verse 34 where Jesus gives examples of two people being together with one being taken and one left. Those verses, in and of themselves, tell us nothing about what happens to those taken and to those left, but we can figure that out from the previous verses that speak of events where some were taken away and escaped God's wrath and some were left behind and did not escape His wrath, like in Noah and Lot's days. From those events, regardless of what it means to be taken and what it means to be left (there is some disagreement about that), we know that it means all people either survive Christ's second coming and they are caught up to Him or they are killed. The ones who are left behind on the earth do not survive to face tribulation as pre-tribs like you believe. They are killed just as those left behind out of the ark were killed and those left behind in Sodom were killed.
Some people think the question the disciples asked at that point ("Where, Lord?") is related to where those who are taken are taken to, but I disagree with that. I think they are just asking where it will take place that one is taken and one is left and Jesus is saying it will happen wherever a dead body is found. Since His second coming is a global event, His answer to the question is basically "everywhere" since unbelievers all over the world will suffer His wrath and vengeance when He comes (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12).
So, this passage is a problem for pre-tribs who think those left behind survive to live another day and then have to face "the tribulation" while having more time to repent and to be saved. No, they do not. They will be killed.
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If you're not a covenantee of the New Everlasting Covenant in the Blood of Messiah the Divine Covenant Confirmer, then anything else that you read or do will avail you nothing.
Calvin won't save you.
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Bladerunner
Active Member
The new Covenant is clear in Ezekial 36:22-32....This is the New Covenant of the Church, His Body, His Bride. this is what they Jew and Gentile will share. For the Remnant of Israel will be saved, feed and watered for 42 month / 1260 days until Daniel's 70th week is finished. At the beginning of the millennium they will receive God's New Covenant and live as His people and He as their GOD during the millennium and beyond. The deeper you get into this, the more one can believe in what it says. If you are in the Covenant Theology, run.Are you implying that Calvin did not believe in the New Covenant?
Well, how one understands it, sure.
Yes, but not in the same simplistic manner as you. <smile>
No, in Romans 9:6-7, when Paul says, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring," he is actually speaking of those of Jewish ethnicity who are not of God's Israel, and thus not among God's elect, and thus they do not believe in the Word of God. And why do they not believe, Bladerunner? You might recall Jesus's words in John 8:45-47... "...I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
Nope. God's people are, collectively speaking, of every ethnicity ~ every tongue, tribe, and nation ~ and thus true Jews of God, of His Israel, His household.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, until Jesus came, but yes. But the law was a "guardian," or a "tutor" (Galatians 3:24-26), so "until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith." The Law was set in place to point us to Jesus, and that was always true, even from the time Moses brought the Law down from Mt. Sinai. The only difference ~ and it's a significant difference, yes ~ is that it pointed the ancient Israelites to look forward to Jesus coming, and it points us back to Him. And forward to His return, for sure.
Heaven and earth will finally be one, Bladerunner. There will be no "rapture." Jesus is returning to us, and all His saints will come with Him, and the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven to us. And in that way, everything will be finally made new.
The New Covenant, Bladerunner, is Jesus. And we have Him now. <smile> Not in person yet, but we do; one day our faith will be sight.
Hmmmm... a mixed bag... <smile> Who is your King, Bladerunner? Right now. Who is your King? I do agree, though, that the final Judgment will take place after the millennium comes to a close... and after Satan's loosing and subsequent final defeat.
Hmmmm... a mixed bag... <smile> Israel again... Who is your King, Bladerunner? Right now. Who is your King?
Nope. There is a millennium, a thousand years, but the amillennialist will disagree with the premillennialist, the postmillennialist, and the preterist on the nature and the timing of it.
To you, and folks like you. I get it. <smile>
No, there is one plan, for both groups, Gentile and Jewish members of God's elect, to be made one, collectively God's Israel, individually true Jews of God. Again... "a partial hardening has come upon Israel..." ~ this is the first portion, the Jewish part ~ "...until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" ~ this is the second portion, the Gentile part ~ "And in this way all Israel will be saved" ~ this is the whole, all Israel, made up of both parts. (Romans 11:25-26)
Ugh. <smile> Many don't see Revelation 12 for what it is. <smile>
<chuckles>
Hmmm... Well, I agree that this earth... all of creation... will be restored to its original condition, which is unfallen, and in that sense will be finally made new, which is what God says He is doing now, most clearly in Revelation 21:5. He does not say, "Behold, I am making all new things," but rather, "Behold, I am making all things new." It's an important distinction.
The New Heaven and New Earth there will only be perfect peace, which means far more than must no more war... Eternal rest, no more sin... Yeah, looking forward to that... <smile> But that's after the millennium, after the final defeat of Satan, and after the final Judgment...
Hmmm, "the beginning of the last days in 1948..." I mean, I'll just point out Hebrews 1:1-2 here and leave it at that: "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son..." This was written near the end of the first century, as you know, I'm sure... Surely you would not say that what he wrote (around 95 A.D. would not be relevant to anyone reading his words until 1948... <smile>
Well that was my point, so yes. <smile>
Ugh. <smile>
Not yet... <smile>
Well no, that's just how you characterize it. And folks like you.
Oh, I most surely do. But I say to you, keep in mind what you are reading... in keeping with the genre it is written in (with regard to Daniel and Revelation and other parts of Scripture).
I didn't say anything about taking anything too far. What I said, Bladerunner, was that you and folks like you understand at least some things far too simply, far too simplistically.
Hmmm, "those who do battle"... I would just say, Bladerunner, that, in the spirit of Revelation, Jesus wins. <smile>
Grace and peace to you
Yaa-de-dah-de-daa! Nothing to bring to the table but avoidance and insults. This is the online Premill MO.
More avoidance. You cannot abide the Word. Your argument revolves around your extra-biblical opinions. That is what your posts are full of.
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
False, You are replacing a single "Israel" with "2 Israels." That is a replacement. Not only that but you change the meaning of "Israel" being a single nation, native to Palestine, into a conglomeration of international remnants who are Christians. You are replacing being Jewish with being Christian. That is "replacement," pure and simple.
Of course, you don't think so because you believe you're right to do this, at least retaining the natural meaning of "Israel" while at the same time asserting another "Israel." But the point is, to those of us who do not think you're right, from our pov what you're doing is replacing the normal definition of "Israel" for a foreign one.
Since *we believe* there is only one Israel we believe you're replacing what *should be* strictly the native view of "Israel" for a "spiritualized Israel." Instead of separating them into "2 Israels" you should be confining your definition to only one "Israel."
So, I'm not misrepresenting Amills at all--I'm just disagreeing with them and characterizing them the way *I see them.* And I've done more than enough to explain that. A simple reference online to "Supersessionism" will explain the same thing I did.
You think by separating the one Israel into two you're not "spiritualizing Israel." But since there can only be one Israel, the one you're spiritualizing is an illegitimate spiritualization of native Israel. There is no "Spiritual Israel."
Provide a link to an online source that teaches this.
Have you ever heard of the New Testament of the Bible, comprised of the books from Matthew to Revelation?
If, as you insist, there is only one Israel, then is there any distinction between the saved and the unsaved within Israel?
Or do you believe that they're all saved, not by grace through faith, but by their DNA?
Bladerunner
Active Member
But reading it literally when needed...If it is a poem or a song or a play, the His Word lets you know. As far as I can tell, there are no Allegories in the Bible. (i.e. a verse that means a spiritual journey, etc)
not sure how to take that.
Yes and if you will read verse 8 (literally,) it will tell you why? You hit the nail on the head the hard way. Very Good
Pinseeker....I went over the character limit. I cut and pasted it in another reply to the same original post.
Bladerunner
Active Member
From the post 751 of Pinseeker a second post.
your trying to make this personal, it is not. how many heavens are there. The first heaven is where the Birds fly. will not argue with you...how did the saints get toback. heaven to come back with Him? do you really that all the calamities of Rev. will happen before Jesus comes back.
Roman 9:15-21.."For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either." A question you have to ask your self..Is it because Israel will be the capitial of the World with Jesus Christ at the center. Your covenant theology needs to answer this...it is denying Israel their birthright/inheritance
may the Lord God Jesus Bless you and yours. good day.
Great again. You are at the door sister, come on in...If you are not of GOD, you are not of the elect. Rem, even Israel OT believers,The remnant of Israel and all the OT believers that He had put aside are the elect.Yet, from the first century Israel on a whole was partially blinded. However, many (the elect) have still found their way to God. Keep in mind that when Daniel's 70th gets here, 2/3 of the Jewish population will die. Now compare that with WWII where Hilter and the war in general killed about 1/3 of their population then. Yet out of that population that flees judah (Rev 12) are elect and will be feed and watered for 42 months or 1260 days, 3.5 years until Daniel's 70th week is finished.
do we not see Jews in NY, russia, and spread throughout the world. Yet, the valley of dry bones of those that have died are leaving these places and finding themselves in Israel. their homeland. Last time I counted, out of 120 countries, there were around 115 ethnic groups of Jews in Israel.
The Law showed mankind what sin was. Ancient Israel did not know about Jesus?
your trying to make this personal, it is not. how many heavens are there. The first heaven is where the Birds fly. will not argue with you...how did the saints get toback. heaven to come back with Him? do you really that all the calamities of Rev. will happen before Jesus comes back.
Ezekial 36:22-32. Both the saints of the church have and will receive this covenant and the remnant of Israel as wel
Jesus Christ is my Mashiach Nagid, Millennium means 1000, how many more thousand years will it be. If everything happened in the past and all we are doing is waiting, we could be waiting to 10,000 years according to your theology.
so GOd covenants with Abraham and all the others are null and void. I will alert you to this verse,
Roman 9:15-21.."For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either." A question you have to ask your self..Is it because Israel will be the capitial of the World with Jesus Christ at the center. Your covenant theology needs to answer this...it is denying Israel their birthright/inheritance
why the smile....yes it is about Israel. That is what the tribulations is for, Placing Israel up against the wall, so to speak.
where do you see it getting better? don't care if you answer me, you need to answer the question for your self...do you see a child laying down with the wolf or maybe the cow eating in the same pasture as the bear.
Yes, the earth is degrading just as much as the human race. "all new things" Jesus tells us there is nothing "New" under the sun...
I see you do not know your Bible. The valley of dry Bones, Ezekial 37. you need to read it, including the explanation of it....Israel is the only country that was cutoff from it homeland and live to come back to it. for almost 1800 years Israel was not but yet in 1948 the Jews proclaimed their independence and was immediately attacked from six side literally the next day. God got them through that and then the Jews of Israel reclaimed their capital twenty years later. No other county or peoples have done this in the history of the earth. Once they were gone, they were no more but not Israel. which is why she is hated so much like trying to divided Israel into two states.....this is not going to happen. It is Gods land.
Still personal...
Oh, I do which is why I have told you about
simplistic. never been accused of that before, a First...well done!
may the Lord God Jesus Bless you and yours. good day.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Nobody is saved by their DNA, as you seem to suggest. However, what I believe is that *God's Word* required that there be DNA representing each nation so that there would be saved people in every nation.
This is the current condition of the Church. Christian nations have gone away, both Jewish and non-Jewish. So, there are only semi-Christian nations and nonChristian nations, in which there are true Christian remnants.
But I believe the Promise God made to Abraham required not just remnants in all nations, but also nations themselves who would devote themselves, albeit imperfectly, to God. We have had Christian nations in the past, and we have had Israel's Davidic theocracy in the past. But all these have failed over time.
This does not prevent God from restoring them. If they've existed in the past, albeit imperfectly, He can restore them again at the 2nd Coming. This is, I believe, the Promise God made to Abraham, to have the nation Israel, and many nations devoted to the faith of Abraham.
Israel has yet to become a Christian nation. But being that they have the DNA and the potential for national reconciliation with God we wouldn't call them "Saved" yet, but we can call them Israel--not yet "True Israel" in the sense of being faithful, but still "Israel."
So within your one physical Israel, are there the saved, and the unsaved?
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