David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Believe JESUS and you will be Blessed
"If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."
Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?
- Thread starter NotTheRock
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"If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."
In truth, you cannot comprehend the table. It is showing 3 mainline doctrinal views.
Of which the Historical/Messianic view is correct.
You and some others are the ones that kept complaining about the truth that when Christ returns, all unbelieving, as in those who do not know God and those who do not obey the gospel, Christ kills, destroys, because Zechariah 14 talks about survivors and you need them for your 1000 years first earthly reign of Christ to rule over unsaved peoples with a rod of Iron, which is totally an antichrist satanic doctrine, against the truth of what both Christ and His apostles said will happen. And you and some others, have never repented of it yet, have you.
KJV
6 For it is a righteous thing with God to recompense with tribulation those who trouble you;
7 and to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
NIV
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
AMPC
7 And to [[a]recompense] you who are so distressed and afflicted [by granting you] relief and rest along with us [your fellow sufferers] when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire,
8 To deal out retribution (chastisement and vengeance) upon those who do not know or perceive or become acquainted with God, and [upon those] who ignore and refuse to obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 When He comes to be glorified in His saints [on that day He will be made more glorious in His consecrated people], and [He will] be marveled at and admired [in His glory reflected] in all who have believed [who have adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Him], because our witnessing among you was confidently accepted and believed [and confirmed in your lives].
Davy
Well-Known Member
WHO TOLD YOU THAT LIE?
Jer 31:35-37
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, Which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
KJV
Those statements in red above are CONDITIONAL STATEMENTS. God is simply saying that IF... the movements of the stars and planets cease, then the Seed of Israel shall cease. Will the ordinances of the moon, stars and planets ever cease? NO! Neither will the SEED of Israel ever cease from being a nation.
That is just the opposite of what you said.
Likewise, the Ezekiel 37 Chapter is about the CONTINUATION of the SEED of Israel FOREVER. Again, just the OPPOSITE of what you say!
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All versions are teaching the same exact thing, which means there will be no unsaved survivors left on the earth when Christ returns to judge the world in fire.
Whoever teaches there will be the wicked and unbelieving left alive at his coming, is lying and has no understanding, but they do then also lie about what Zechariah 14 says, adding error to error..
EXB
5 This is ·proof [evidence] that God is ·right [just; righteous] in his judgment. ·He wants you to be counted […so that you will be considered; or …to make you] worthy of his kingdom for which you are suffering. 6 [L For] God ·will do what is right [is just/righteous]. He will ·give trouble to [pay back with trials/hardship] those who ·trouble [inflict trials/hardships on] you.
7 And he will give rest to you who are ·troubled [suffering trials/hardships] and to us also when the Lord Jesus ·appears [is revealed] ·with blazing fire from heaven [or from heaven; C “with blazing fire” may go with the next sentence] with his powerful angels.
8 Then he will ·punish [or punish with blazing fire] those who do not know God [Jer. 10:25] and who do not obey the ·Good News about [Gospel of] our Lord Jesus.
9 Those people will be punished with a ·destruction that continues forever [eternal destruction], ·separated from [L …from] the presence of the Lord and from ·his great power [or the glory of his strength; or his glorious strength].
10 This will happen on the day when ·the Lord Jesus [L he] comes to ·receive glory [be glorified] ·because of [or among; or in; or from] his holy people. And all the people who have believed will ·be amazed at [marvel at] Jesus. You will be in that group, because you believed ·what we told [our testimony to] you.
Geneva Bible
6 [d]For it is a righteous thing with God, to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you,
7 And to you which are troubled, rest [e]with us, [f]when the Lord Jesus shall show himself from heaven with his mighty Angels,
8 In flaming fire, rendering vengeance unto them, [g]that do not know God, and which obey not unto the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
9 Which shall be punished with everlasting perdition from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power,
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his Saints, and to be made marvelous in all them that believe ([h]because our testimony toward you was believed) in that day.
Whoever teaches there will be the wicked and unbelieving left alive at his coming, is lying and has no understanding, but they do then also lie about what Zechariah 14 says, adding error to error..
EXB
5 This is ·proof [evidence] that God is ·right [just; righteous] in his judgment. ·He wants you to be counted […so that you will be considered; or …to make you] worthy of his kingdom for which you are suffering. 6 [L For] God ·will do what is right [is just/righteous]. He will ·give trouble to [pay back with trials/hardship] those who ·trouble [inflict trials/hardships on] you.
7 And he will give rest to you who are ·troubled [suffering trials/hardships] and to us also when the Lord Jesus ·appears [is revealed] ·with blazing fire from heaven [or from heaven; C “with blazing fire” may go with the next sentence] with his powerful angels.
8 Then he will ·punish [or punish with blazing fire] those who do not know God [Jer. 10:25] and who do not obey the ·Good News about [Gospel of] our Lord Jesus.
9 Those people will be punished with a ·destruction that continues forever [eternal destruction], ·separated from [L …from] the presence of the Lord and from ·his great power [or the glory of his strength; or his glorious strength].
10 This will happen on the day when ·the Lord Jesus [L he] comes to ·receive glory [be glorified] ·because of [or among; or in; or from] his holy people. And all the people who have believed will ·be amazed at [marvel at] Jesus. You will be in that group, because you believed ·what we told [our testimony to] you.
Geneva Bible
6 [d]For it is a righteous thing with God, to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you,
7 And to you which are troubled, rest [e]with us, [f]when the Lord Jesus shall show himself from heaven with his mighty Angels,
8 In flaming fire, rendering vengeance unto them, [g]that do not know God, and which obey not unto the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
9 Which shall be punished with everlasting perdition from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power,
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his Saints, and to be made marvelous in all them that believe ([h]because our testimony toward you was believed) in that day.
8 In flaming fire, rendering vengeance unto them, [g]that do not know God, and which obey not unto the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
9 Which shall be punished with everlasting perdition from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power,
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his Saints, and to be made marvelous in all them that believe ([h]because our testimony toward you was believed) in that day.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
'Everlasting Perdition' is Hell, and Hell is everlasting destruction.
And the above fully agrees with everything Jesus said about His coming.
Yet, some of you insist there must be ungodly survivors cause that is what Zechariah 14 says!
All that proves is you know nothing, do not abide in the truth, and won't admit your fault.
Meaning you are deluded and deceived and add error to error. And nobody else should listen to such people as yourself.
The only ones that will listen are your fellow deceivers.
9 Which shall be punished with everlasting perdition from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power,
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his Saints, and to be made marvelous in all them that believe ([h]because our testimony toward you was believed) in that day.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
'Everlasting Perdition' is Hell, and Hell is everlasting destruction.
And the above fully agrees with everything Jesus said about His coming.
Yet, some of you insist there must be ungodly survivors cause that is what Zechariah 14 says!
All that proves is you know nothing, do not abide in the truth, and won't admit your fault.
Meaning you are deluded and deceived and add error to error. And nobody else should listen to such people as yourself.
The only ones that will listen are your fellow deceivers.
Davy
Well-Known Member
NOPE! The Historicist and Messianic views are the MOST INCORRECT, because they blatantly LEAVE the actual Bible Scripture as written. This isn't about POLITICS like how you are acting. This is about wanting to keep God's Truth in His Word as written. Either one sincerely wants God's Truth, or they do not.
MY last several posts show the truth that there will be no ungodly survivors of the Day of Christ at His coming again.
Why do you persist in unbelief?
You do not believe what He has said about His return.
You grab onto a failed doctrine, which was a modern creation from the last hundred and 50 years ago, and is not what the church believed for about 2000 years, and most denominations do not believe it, except for few in North America. It is Scofield teaching you and Darby, and not scriptures.
Since I believe the historical church's POV, you're the one with a new revelation, and the scripture warns us about how in the last days, some will be this,
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils,
The burden is on you, not me, to prove your doctrine, and you cannot stand to hear the word of God, as you can't prove it, so you ignore the verses that prove your contrariness to true doctrine.
Your doctrine is in conflict with God's word.
What, do you stop your ears? Are you deaf? Throw clods of dirt in the air?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Nobody in Judea ("let those in Judea flee to the mountains"), not nobody in the whole world. Look at the context. Jesus does not want you to ignore the context of what He said the way you are doing.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That text does not allow for anyone who does not know God and who rejected the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ to survive His return. What unbeliever does not fit that description? None. All unbelievers fit within that description, so that means Jesus will be taking vengeance on all unbelievers when He returns to bring fire down upon His enemies on the entire earth.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I have come to realize over the past year or so that many people do not seem to accept what Paul taught in relation to end times doctrine. Here, in this passage you quoted, he clearly taught that Jesus will take vengeance on and destroy all unbelievers when He comes again. Premils don't accept what he taught there.
And they don't accept what he taught in passages like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 where he indicated that all of the dead who belong to Christ will be resurrected at the same time when He comes again. He did not mention any believers being resurrected at any other time than at Christ's return, but that would have to be the case if mortals continued living on the earth after He returns. But, he was silent about anyone being resurrected at some later time as well. So, Premil does not accept what Paul taught there, either. But, Paul knew what he was talking about and he knew the Old Testament better than anyone here. And, despite that, he never taught anything like what Premils believe based on their false understanding of OT prophecies.
[Rev 3:11 NKJV] 11 "Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
If I said I am coming quickly, people would take in their lifetime. Jesus meant in their lifetime, not on my turtle as quick as I can.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You don't trust that Jesus and the NT authors understood the Old Testament better than you do. Neither Jesus nor any of the NT authors taught Premil. Jesus made it clear that just as all unbelievers died in the flood, all unbelievers will be killed when He returns (Matthew 24:35-39) and that heaven and earth will pass away at that time. Peter taught the same thing in 2 Peter 3:3-13. Paul also taught that Jesus will take vengeance on all unbelievers when He returns and that they will not escape the sudden destruction that He will bring down upon them (2 Thess 1:7-10, 1 Thess 5:2-3). They would not have said what they did if they understood the OT prophecies the way you do. You should trust that they knew what they were talking about, but you instead think you know better than them.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You completely ignored what I said. The Greek word translated as "quickly" means immediately or very quickly. That refers to how quickly He will come once He does come and has nothing to do with how long it would be until He comes. Once He comes, He will come quickly like how quickly lightning flashes from the east to the west (Matthew 24:27).
If He was referring to how long it would be until He comes and meant to imply that He would come within the lifetime of the readers in the first century, the Greek word "tachy" is not the word that would have been used to describe that. He was not saying He was coming immediately after Revelation was written.
An honest bible scholar will believe what both Christ and His apostles taught, and they teach that all the ungodly are going to hell at His coming, there will be no ungodly survivors left alive on this earth.
Everlasting perdition, everlasting destruction, in flaming fire, for all the unbelieving.
John 3, all unbelievers are already condemned, leaving none alive to walk on the earth or enter into His Prescence.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Just like the time of Noah
Luke 17:26
And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
Luke 17:27
They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
2 Peter 3
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perdition of ungodly men refers to their eternal destruction in hell-Lake of Fire
So yeah, they will not be left alive to walk this earth after the return of Christ, He will leave none of them alive, they will burn (like the heathen kings of old) LOL! Do you remember that line?
He will gather His people unto Himself.
Then HE will burn the earth with fire.
Everlasting perdition, everlasting destruction, in flaming fire, for all the unbelieving.
John 3, all unbelievers are already condemned, leaving none alive to walk on the earth or enter into His Prescence.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Just like the time of Noah
Luke 17:26
And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
Luke 17:27
They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
2 Peter 3
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perdition of ungodly men refers to their eternal destruction in hell-Lake of Fire
So yeah, they will not be left alive to walk this earth after the return of Christ, He will leave none of them alive, they will burn (like the heathen kings of old) LOL! Do you remember that line?
He will gather His people unto Himself.
Then HE will burn the earth with fire.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Those passages just do not leave any possibility of any unbeliever/unsaved person surviving Christ's return. Whenever I have asked Premils what would qualify any unbeliever to survive Christ's return, I get all different answers (if I get answers at all), none of which are convincing at all.
Those passages you referenced clearly indicate that each person will experience one of two things when Jesus comes. They will either be taken or left. Regardless of what one's understanding is of being taken or left, we know that believers will be changed to put on bodily immortality when He comes. So, that's one of the possible outcomes for each person. The other possible outcome is that they will be killed because Jesus specifically pointed out that the flood destroyed all unbelievers in Noah's day and then said "so also will the coming of the Son of man be". Which means He was saying that all unbelievers will be killed at His second coming, also, just like they were in the flood in Noah's day. How else can His words be understood? How can anyone think Jesus taught that any unbeliever would survive His second coming? He clearly did not teach that at all and instead clearly taught that none of them would survive.
Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”
Luke 3
16 John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.”
18 And with many other exhortations he preached to the people.
Matthew 13
51 [d]Jesus said to them, “Have you understood all these things?”
They said to Him, “Yes, [e]Lord.”
His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”
Luke 3
16 John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.”
18 And with many other exhortations he preached to the people.
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Dragnet
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”51 [d]Jesus said to them, “Have you understood all these things?”
They said to Him, “Yes, [e]Lord.”
NottheRock@
I am assuming you didn't read the dissertation. This article renders the Preterist argument null and void. We now have evidence that the book of Revelation was written in the 90s AD.
The adverb "quickly" in Greek has many nuances. One of them deals with sequence. So, this is really Greek 102. The sequence that is happening quickly puts us now in the last days. Not quickly in time, but quickly in sequence. This is why you can't determine the meaning of a Greek word by looking up the definition of the English word.
What this sequence is related to is prophecy. The next prophetic event to happen is the Rapture. Prophetically speaking Christ's Coming is the next event.
The ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars is given in Genesis 1:14.
Genesis 1:14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
In the new heaven new earth the Genesis 1:14 ordinances are not being obeyed by the sun and moon, as seen in Isaiah 60:20.
Isaiah 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
Therefore the Jeremiah 31:36 conditional promise does come to pass when the NHNE is realized. And there can’t be any unconditional eternal promises made to national Israel except the promise that they won’t be a nation before God ever again after the Jeremiah 31:36 conditions are met.
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