Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

[HealthyShape]

Quickly, soon, near are all idioms in Greek indicating sequential phases. This you should have figured out by noting how much "time" has transpired from the time it was written.

This is a classic eisegesis. You think it did not happen and so you postulate "these are Greek idioms indicating something else...", without any other proof than your personal belief it would be a failed prophecy, if read in its proper context.

Do you think that Christ's coming is soon (in time), despite it has already been 2,000 years? Was it true when it was written?

No, I think it happened soon after the Revelation was written. Max 7 years or so after, I guess. More probably 3.5 years after it was written. It would correspond with the urgency and hints in the text.

 

[Taken]

Why do you promote a doctrine (dispensational eschatology) that teaches God has TWO Covenants of Grace, one for ethnic Israel and the other for the Church?

Great Question.
Can’t answer for @ron Nolette, but can answer for myself.

God in His own “Wholeness” IS WHO He claims “He IS”…
* His: Names, Titles, Descriptions, Place, Means, Ways, Intent, Purpose, Works.

Man-KIND… in his own “wholeness” IS naturally born:
body
…(via mans seed, mans life; blood
soul
…(via) Gods soul, Gods Life; Gods Breath
spirit
…(vis) mans natural truth in his heart.

Every man-kind of being…natural mortal body, blood life SHALL Die. (God requires that).

God “Offers” man-kind, a New Life “after mortal death”.
It is the individual mans “choice” to “accept or reject” Gods “offering”..

Time- for man to “accept” or “reject” Gods “offering”, is While the mans body IS naturally Alive (ie with its own Blood Life).

The “enigma”…
God is all knowing…“knows”…WHAT every “HEART” Believes, and WHEN the man believes What he believes.

Man is not “all knowing”. Man spends his natural LIFE, learning, accepting and rejecting “knowledge”, as and when he chooses.

Man naturally fills his “Carnal Mind” with Knowledge… “Accepting knowledge as True, Rejecting knowledge as True, Investigating knowledge, Logically dissecting the knowledge, to believe it, accept it or reject it.

The enigma…
Natural mans…TWO processes of Thought / Beliefs.
* The Carnal Mind…(Logically concluding, still having option to Change Minds belief)
* The Heart…(Trusting without doubt something is True.)

Natural mans…further OPTION…
Speak (write, convey)… WHAT he Believes…
From his carnal minds thoughts…
From his hearts thoughts…
“Or Not”.

Lord God Almighty’s…own requirement, applicable to Himself…

(1)Salvation is His Gift to Give.

(2)Salvation IS ALWAYS given a man AFTER the mans natural body is Accounted bodily Dead.

(3) The Gift of Salvation From “the Father”
is ALWAYS given exclusively to a man Who Mortally Died IN Belief IN God.

(4) The Gift of Salvation From the Lord, “the Son” is ALWAYS given exclusively to a man Who Willingly Confesses his Heartful Belief and Willingly Agrees to Spiritually Die IN Belief IN God and IN Christ Jesus IS the Son of God…(they bodily accounted Dead, crucified With Jesus’ Body.)
—- They…Spiritually thereafter, LIVE IN Jesus’ Risen Body…and Gods Power Lives IN Them…. They exclusively called:
“IN Christ”

God has TWO Covenants of Grace…?
Why?

You have to be diverse in the knowledge of God…and the history of manKind…

For 4,000 years man-Kind was offered the option to Believe in God (or not)…and they who chose to Belief IN God, Would Receive their Salvation After their bodily Death.

Thereafter in the following 2.000+ years, man-Kind WAS and to this day IS “OFFERED”a new better testament”…
The new better testament IS an “OFFER” by, through, of God, by, through, of the Word of God; Jesus, and the Power of God; Christ…
OFFERED exclusively to humans WHO … Freely, Exclusively Choose to “Accept” the “OFFERING”…

The OFFERING…dictates… WHO Shall Receive THEIR Salvation, WHEN, HOW, WHY…
And WHO Shall “Redeem” that man.
And WHO Shall “Redeem” that man..WHEN.

Christ Jesus “Shall” Redeem men “IN” Christ.
1 Thes. 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


God “Shall” Redeem men “WITH” God.
1 Thes. 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Isa 49:
[7] Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

Many are Called..Few are Chosen.

Few men Call on God, Few men Call on The Lord…Few men ARE With God, Few men Are With the Lord…

All mortal men Shall bodily Die…and Shall be Redeemed By WHOM they were “WITH / IN” during their mortal Life.

John 10:
[26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[KUWN]

Revelation would have noted the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem. But if it were before, then the silence is explainable.

You don't have any real evidence.

The dissertation is there for anyone to read. I can tell by your responses that you are not a serious student of the Bible. You don't have in training in theology, and also Koine Greek, the language of the NT writers. I would be willing to discuss this topic once you are not dependent on English translations. There are many university online programs you can take for credit or audit the classes. You will no longer have to be dependent on commentaries, other believers, or forums like this one.

 

[KUWN]

Revelation would have noted the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem. But if it were before, then the silence is explainable.

You don't have any real evidence.

The book of Revelation is about the future, not history.

 

[Davy]

In post #135 you said “That statement above suggests you don't understand your Bible history” I showed how Jeremiah 31:36 must be fulfilled when new heaven new earth are realized. Your response is now in large bold type and presumes to know how God will punish me for that.

Nah... that's not what your Topic about Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 37 was about, and you well know it!

You instead made FALSE STATEMENTS with interpreting those Scriptures like it showed the nation of Israel will cease to exist forever, when those Scriptures show JUST THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU SAID! THAT is your blasphemy against that Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 37 Scripture!

Brethren in Christ - see what grafted branch actually said in interpreting that Jer.31 and Ezekiel 37 Scripture, and then judge between him and me. See his post #147.

 

[grafted branch]

Nah... that's not what your Topic about Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 37 was about, and you well know it!

You instead made FALSE STATEMENTS with interpreting those Scriptures like it showed the nation of Israel will cease to exist forever, when those Scriptures show JUST THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU SAID! THAT is your blasphemy against that Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 37 Scripture!

Brethren in Christ - see what grafted branch actually said in interpreting that Jer.31 and Ezekiel 37 Scripture, and then judge between him and me. See his post #147.

Let’s break this down then and see where the problem is.

Do you agree or disagree that the sun and moon do not obey their ordinances in NHNE?

Do you agree or disagree that Jeremiah 31:36 says when the sun and moon do not obey their ordinances Israel is no longer a nation before God, forever?

Do you agree or disagree that there can’t be any unconditional eternal promises made to national Israel, because they are no longer a nation before God in NHNE?

 

[Truth7t7]

"Generation" is representative of the type or manner of people, not years, in this instance either 'evil' or 'ethnic nation'. IOW antichrists that shall always be among the Church.

Your claims are 100% False

"Generation", "Summer", And "Near" are all earthly measurements of time and have nothing to do with people types as you claim, good try no cigar

The future generation that witnesses the signs and events won't pass/die "Measurement Of Time" until all is fulfilled, including the future second coming of Jesus

Matthew 24:32-34KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Luke's account shows great detail of the same seen in Matthew, signs to be seen and the generation that will witness the signs will also witness the Lord's future second coming (The End)

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Davy]

Let’s break this down then and see where the problem is.

You just need to READ it, then ask our Heavenly Father and His Son about it. I can't help you with it, you won't listen to me even though I tell you the Truth.

 

[grafted branch]

You just need to READ it, then ask our Heavenly Father and His Son about it. I can't help you with it, you won't listen to me even though I tell you the Truth.

I did read it and it clearly says the sun and moon are not obeying their ordinances in Isaiah 60:20. I think the reason you can’t help me is because you have to ignore that in order to maintain your view.

I don’t think you are telling me the truth otherwise you could explain what’s going on with the sun and moon not obeying their ordinances in NHNE. Instead you insult others and try to belittle them.

 

[rwb]

Your claims are 100% False

"Generation", "Summer", And "Near" are all earthly measurements of time and have nothing to do with people types as you claim, good try no cigar

The future generation that witnesses the signs and events won't pass/die "Measurement Of Time" until all is fulfilled, including the future second coming of Jesus

Matthew 24:32-34KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Luke's account shows great detail of the same seen in Matthew, signs to be seen and the generation that will witness the signs will also witness the Lord's future second coming (The End)

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

IOW you don't believe Christ was specifically speaking to the first century Jewish Christians asking Him of things they too would experience as they proclaimed the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the earth! So when Christ says "ye" He really meant only those who are alive at His coming again! Good try but no cigar!

Matthew 24:33 (KJV) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 

[rwb]

God “Offers” man-kind, a New Life “after mortal death”.
It is the individual mans “choice” to “accept or reject” Gods “offering”..

God offers the Gospel which is the MESSAGE about Christ to all without exception. Through the Gospel proclaimed God GIVES everlasting life to whosoever, through the power of the Gospel and Holy Spirit believes shall be saved. Salvation is of the Lord.

John 1:12-13 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Man naturally fills his “Carnal Mind” with Knowledge… “Accepting knowledge as True, Rejecting knowledge as True, Investigating knowledge, Logically dissecting the knowledge, to believe it, accept it or reject it.

True! Mankind can choose whatsoever they desire! However, mankind CANNOT choose Christ apart from the imputation of faith through grace. Salvation is of the LORD! He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Taken]

God offers the Gospel which is the MESSAGE about Christ to all without exception. Through the Gospel proclaimed God GIVES everlasting life to whosoever, through the power of the Gospel and Holy Spirit believes shall be saved. Salvation is of the Lord.

John 1:12-13 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


True! Mankind can choose whatsoever they desire! However, mankind CANNOT choose Christ apart from the imputation of faith through grace. Salvation is of the LORD! He shall save His people from their sins.

God Saves…God redeems..First Resurrection
Jesus Saves…Jesus redeems…Rapture.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[rwb]

God Saves…God redeems..First Resurrection
Jesus Saves…Jesus redeems…Rapture.

Glory to God,
Taken

The Lord saves through His sacrificial blood on the cross and resurrection from the dead - Christ is the First Resurrection
Before physical death whosoever among humanity partakes of everlasting spiritual life through Christ according to grace through faith shall be caught up with immortal & incorruptible bodies (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air when the last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again and time for this earth shall be no longer.

 

[Scott Downey]

Luke 10:19
Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Acts 2:34-36
New King James Version
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David did not ascend into the heavens, but Christ has. For now, that is where he will stay.

The order of power and authority, Christ is risen from the dead and all power over earth and in heaven has been given to Him.

And he must reign at the Father's side until, what? Until the last enemy is destroyed, which is DEATH.
DEATH is only destroyed when after the final judgment it is cast into the Lake of Fire, then Christ will turn over the kingdom to the Father.

Christ then can leave the Father's side. Heaven must receive Him until the restoration of all things, which happens after this "END", which is also His returning. He remains at the Father's side till DEATH is in the Lake of Fire.

Which means the New Jerusalem which descends out of heaven onto the New earth is when Christ will also walk on the new earth.
And Christ will reign there, and including the Father too. Interesting to think about.

1 Cor 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.


Do people realize that at Christ's coming GOD will bring with Him all the departed saints? OK.

Do people realize Christ comes and GOD the FATHER is with Him?

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Mark 14:62
Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Christ when he comes remains seated at the right hand of the POWER (Father God) even when He comes, the Father is with Christ,
Death is not yet been cast into the Lake of Fire.
That happens at the Day of Judgment.

 

[Scott Downey]

Peter says like this about Christ's return
Acts 3

17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also [f]foretold these days.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When Christ returns, all those who refused to hear Him, as in (those who do not hear God are not of God as Jesus spoke in John 8), they shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. There will be no ungodly survivors when God sends Christ again.

When Christ returns it is the 'restoration of all things', and that is the New Earth and the New Heaven, when God says, "behold, I make all things new"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Revelation 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The above is the truth, and does step on some people's toes as they think something different!

 

[Taken]

The Lord saves through His sacrificial blood on the cross and resurrection from the dead - Christ is the First Resurrection

I am aware HOW humans are saved.

My point was WHO exercises power and authority to save humans.

We’re you unaware I was speaking of humans?

 

[Truth7t7]

IOW you don't believe Christ was specifically speaking to the first century Jewish Christians asking Him of things they too would experience as they proclaimed the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the earth! So when Christ says "ye" He really meant only those who are alive at His coming again! Good try but no cigar!

Matthew 24:33 (KJV) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Jesus was prophetically speaking to 1st century Christians as representatives of the "Future" church regarding his second coming

Did the 1st century Christian church in Jerusalem lift up their heads and witness the Lords second coming "Absolutely Not"

The words of God below represent a "Future" Christian church in Jerusalem, that will be eyewitnesses of the signs and the Lord's second coming, simple, clear, easy to understand, if the reader isn't blinded by reformed theology's false preterist teachings in 1st century fulfillment

How long will you continue to fight against God's words of simple truth before your eyes?

Jesus Is The Lord

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[IndianaRob]

Jesus was prophetically speaking to 1st century Christians as representatives of the "Future" church regarding his second coming

Did the 1st century Christian church in Jerusalem lift up their heads and witness the Lords second coming "Absolutely Not"

The words of God below represent a "Future" Christian church in Jerusalem, that will be eyewitnesses of the signs and the Lord's second coming, simple, clear, easy to understand, if the reader could disregard reformed theologies false preterist teachings

Jesus Is The Lord

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

How can you not see that REDEMPTION came at the cross? What am I missing here?

What is your logic that makes you think God’s people aren’t redeemed yet?

Do you think our redemption comes at the “second coming”?

 

[Scott Downey]

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

How can you not see that REDEMPTION came at the cross? What am I missing here?

What is your logic that makes you think God’s people aren’t redeemed yet?

Do you think our redemption comes at the “second coming”?

It is a redemption from being forced to live in the flesh in an evil age. He delivers us from that.

 

[IndianaRob]

It is a redemption from being forced to live in the flesh in an evil age. He delivers us from that.

Sorry I don’t know what that means. Are you talking about death of the believer? I assume at death we aren’t forced to live in the flesh in an evil age.

Is that what you’re talking about?