Is it possible to lose salvation?

[RomeSweetHome]

And they certainly were not teaching catholic doctrine which came later as satan brought heresy in to the church

Acts 20:27-30
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

I don't fully understand your point or which "catholic doctrine" you think "came later." But that aside, from your perspective, who decides what is "heresy," if there's no Church vested with authority to make those judgments? Seems like its up to each person to make that call for themselves. Is that what you believe?

 

[mailmandan]

Soooo to answer your question mailmadmen (I know you won't answer mine because of the charlatan that you are).

YES! The writings of the Church Fathers are not infallible, and the writings of John Calvin are not inspired by God and are not infallible!

We agree that the men who wrote Scripture were inspired and infallible! DUH!

So riddle me this mailmadman: why do you follow the teachings of Protestant men (who lived 1,600 years after the death of Christ) and not the men who were students of the Apostles?

You say that you wish to stick to Scripture when in reality you are sticking to YOUR interpretation of Scripture. Can you really not see you hypocrisy? Can you really not see how morainic your statement is?

Curious Mary!

I don't see any hypocrisy on my part, but I can see how arrogant, judgmental and rude you can be, and I can also see how you like to play the strawman card. So, you are also calling me a charlatan? Really?

Thank you RomeSweetHome.

Some, such as @mailmandan, believe that the teachings of the Reformers from the 16th century hold more weight than the teachings of the men who actually talked to the Apostles.

It's a BIZARRE position to take and I don't understand it!

Respectfully, Mary

Straw man argument. I never said anything about either side holding more weight. I'm neither a Roman Catholic nor a Calvinist, which both have some major doctrinal flaws. The argument that the logic of the early church fathers must be right because they lived during the time of the apostles is an appeal to authority and historical proximity. However, it's an oversimplification that does not fully capture the complexity of the argument. Some of the early church fathers, had direct, personal connections to the original apostles. Their proximity gave them a vantage point on the original apostolic teaching and the earliest understanding of Christianity, yet while some early church fathers knew the apostles directly, the majority were separated by at least one generation. Their testimony was not "first-hand," but based on the oral and written accounts of others. The further removed from the apostolic era, the more their information passed through multiple hands. What we have today are copies of copies of copies of their writings. God promised to preserve His Word but not their writings. The early church fathers did not always agree on everything, just like theologians today. To assume their logic must always be right would require ignoring their disagreements. Their authority is qualified by the generational gap, theological disagreements, and recognition that they were not divinely inspired in the same way as the apostles. Their writings are best understood as historical and theological resources, not as infallible texts.

 

[RomeSweetHome]

I don't see any hypocrisy on my part, but I can see how arrogant, judgmental and rude you can be, and I can also see how you like to play the strawman card. So, you are also calling me a charlatan? Really?

Straw man argument. I never said anything about either side holding more weight. I'm neither a Roman Catholic nor a Calvinist, which both have some major doctrinal flaws. The argument that the logic of the early church fathers must be right because they lived during the time of the apostles is an appeal to authority and historical proximity. However, it's an oversimplification that does not fully capture the complexity of the argument. Some of the early church fathers, had direct, personal connections to the original apostles. Their proximity gave them a vantage point on the original apostolic teaching and the earliest understanding of Christianity, yet while some early church fathers knew the apostles directly, the majority were separated by at least one generation. Their testimony was not "first-hand," but based on the oral and written accounts of others. The further removed from the apostolic era, the more their information passed through multiple hands. What we have today are copies of copies of copies of their writings. God promised to preserve His Word but not their writings. The early church fathers did not always agree on everything, just like theologians today. To assume their logic must always be right would require ignoring their disagreements. Their authority is qualified by the generational gap, theological disagreements, and recognition that they were not divinely inspired in the same way as the apostles. Their writings are best understood as historical and theological resources, not as infallible texts.

On the second paragraph here, as for what's said about the Church Fathers--a few small nuances we could quibble over aside, this is right. The Church Fathers certainly are nuanced, and their standalone writings are certainly not infallible.

Ultimately, these points are just a very small part of a different discussion about the ultimate questions lurking here: (1) who gets to decide what texts constitute the written "Word"; and (2) who gets to decide what those texts mean? As a Catholic, I would point to Scripture itself and answer to both questions: the Church in union with Peter and his successors, to whom Christ gave ultimate "binding and loosing" authority (i.e., authority to make conclusive, binding theological decisions about matters of faith and practice). See Matthew chapters 16 and 18.

 

[shepherdsword]

On the second paragraph here, as for what's said about the Church Fathers--a few small nuances we could quibble over aside, this is right. The Church Fathers certainly are nuanced, and their standalone writings are certainly not infallible.

Ultimately, these points are just a very small part of a different discussion about the ultimate questions lurking here: (1) who gets to decide what texts constitute the written "Word"; and (2) who gets to decide what those texts mean? As a Catholic, I would point to Scripture itself and answer to both questions: the Church in union with Peter and his successors, to whom Christ gave ultimate "binding and loosing" authority (i.e., authority to make conclusive, binding theological decisions about matters of faith and practice). See Matthew chapters 16 and 18.

The devil is a liar from the beginning. This has a double meaning, one of which is the first presupposition of a deception is a lie. Your first false assumption about binding and loosing is that this authority was given to Peter only. This is false as the "you" to who it is given in Matt 18:18 is plural:


This authority is for all believers, as the text shows. To claim that it is plural because he had successors would be bad exegesis.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I don't fully understand your point or which "catholic doctrine" you think "came later."

None of the teachings of the catholic cult are taught by Jesus, His Apostles, or the early church (Book of Acts... the actual early church) . . . .

False teachings such as tradition being equal to scripture, purgatory, praying to and worshipping the dead, indulgences (they think God is good with doing sin as long as cash contributions are made to the catholic cult), mary is mediatrix, mary brings the gifts of eternal salvation, mary delivers souls from death, among other doctrines of demons the catholic cult followers embrace.

Of course the catholic cult claims the Lord forgot to put all of God's Truth in His Word, so they think they are to go outside of the Word of God for doctrine which of course was a trick of the devil that allowed him to bring doctrines of demons in to the church which is how the "church" became corrupt

The actual Church is the Body of Christ which the catholic cult is not a part of as they all find out when the die and sadly end up in hell for following heresy rather than following Jesus Christ.

a few small nuances we could quibble over aside

No there's no "nuances we could quibble over" concerning the catholic cult seeing they reject scripture and follow their religious cult instead of the Lord Jesus Who never taught the cult teachings they follow.

 

[BreadOfLife]

OK Great verses.
Except there was no wailing in pain.
Rev 12:2

The passage is a polyvalent symbol - which means it has multiple meanings. The Woman also represents Israel, from which came the 12 Tribes that produced the Messiah. The crown of 12 stars represents the 12 Tribes of Israel.

The labor pains are those of Israel.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The labor pains are those of Israel.

Sure it wasn't mary eating some bad pizza or something?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sure it wasn't mary eating some bad pizza or something? View attachment 70235

That’s exactly the kind of moronic response I would have expected from somebody of such limited intellect.

Boy, you must keep them rolling in the aisles at your remedial school reunions . . .

 

[Dan Clarkston]

That’s exactly the kind of moronic response I would have expected from somebody of such limited intellect.

Boy, you must keep them rolling in the aisles at your remedial school reunions . . .

Yeah, the folks in the catholic cult get upset when their idol is not honored and worshiped.

Too bad they don't accept the whole counsel of God and have gone beyond what is written which is how they got all their cult teachings.
It's a real shame for these folks to be so deceived. Maybe they'll find true salvation someday which can ONLY be found in Jesus

 

[BreadOfLife]

None of the teachings of the catholic cult are taught by Jesus, His Apostles, or the early church (Book of Acts... the actual early church) . . . .

Really?

You mean, Christian tenets such as -
- The belief in One God as a Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)
- The Divinity and Humanity of Jesus Christ
- The Virgin Birth
- His Death for the sins of humanity
- His Resurrection from the dead
- The necessity of salvation through Christ by God's grace
- The belief in Christ's future return.

The only reason YOU know about them is because of the Catholic Church . . .

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The only reason YOU know about them is because of the Catholic Church . . .

Wrong again darling....The Jews were committed the oracles of God (Romans 3:2)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, the folks in the catholic cult get upset when their idol is not honored and worshiped.

Too bad they don't accept the whole counsel of God and have gone beyond what is written which is how they got all their cult teachings.
It's a real shame for these folks to be so deceived. Maybe they'll find true salvation someday which can ONLY be found in Jesus View attachment 70240

I;ve got news for you apsrky -
ALL Christians have gone beyond what is written.

The Canon of Scrioture is listed NOWHERE in Scrioture. It was declared by the Catholic church in the 4th century under the guidance of the Holy spirit.

Can you show me where your false doctrine of Sola Scriptura is taught in Scripture?
I didn't think so . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wrong again darling....The Jews were committed the oracles of God (Romans 3:2)

The Jews gave us the New Testament??
Can you show me proof of this?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The Jews gave us the New Testament??
Can you show me proof of this?

If those following the catholic cult actually paid attention to the Bible they would notice that the OT writers were all Jews and the NT writers were all Jews too with the exception of Luke who walked with Jesus.... who is a Jew.... and learned directly from the Lord.

And, all the first converts were Jews and it was only later that the Lord revealed to the Apostles that salvation was for the gentiles too.

It is very sad to see those following the catholic cult in the fast lane on the highway to hell... but on the other hand it is some pretty funny comedy to hear all the goofy ways the catholic cult avoids being lead by the Truth Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If those following the catholic cult actually paid attention to the Bible they would notice that the OT writers were all Jews and the NT writers were all Jews too with the exception of Luke who walked with Jesus.... who is a Jew.... and learned directly from the Lord.

And, all the first converts were Jews and it was only later that the Lord revealed to the Apostles that salvation was for the gentiles too.

It is very sad to see those following the catholic cult in the fast lane on the highway to hell... but on the other hand it is some pretty funny comedy to hear all the goofy ways the catholic cult avoids being lead by the Truth Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Ummm, I hate to be the one to break this to you but –
They were all CHRISTIANS. The New Testament came out of the CHRISTIAN Church – not the Jews.

This is pretty basic stuff.
The Jews don’t take credit for the NT . . .

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Ummm, I hate to be the one to break this to you but –
They were all CHRISTIANS. The New Testament came out of the CHRISTIAN Church – not the Jews.

Ummm, I hate to be the one to break this to you but – God's Word came to the world thru Jews who became Christians when they accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior....to whom mary was irrelevant. The Apostles didn't run talk to mary to try to get thru to Jesus

Those following the catholic cult don't believe God's Word so they are blind and cannot understand Truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

The passage is a polyvalent symbol - which means it has multiple meanings. The Woman also represents Israel, from which came the 12 Tribes that produced the Messiah. The crown of 12 stars represents the 12 Tribes of Israel.

The labor pains are those of Israel.

Never studied Revelation...never will.
Dr. Scott Hahn wrote the only book on revelation that makes any sense to me...
The Lamb's Supper
But it refers it to the Mass.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Never studied Revelation...never will.

Good.

You only need to attain to this standard set by God:

“Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” (Rev 1:3, KJV)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ummm, I hate to be the one to break this to you but – God's Word came to the world thru Jews who became Christians when they accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior....to whom mary was irrelevant. The Apostles didn't run talk to mary to try to get thru to Jesus View attachment 70250

Those following the catholic cult don't believe God's Word so they are blind and cannot understand Truth.

Ummm, first of all – Luke, who was a Gentile, not Jewish, wrote one of the Gospel accounts as well as Acts.

Secondly - the early Jewish Christians weren’t operating under the mantle of Jewish Scriptural authority. They were IN CHRIST.

Finally, in Christ –
Gal. 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus.

Do your homework . . .

 

[JLB]

The passage is a polyvalent symbol - which means it has multiple meanings. The Woman also represents Israel, from which came the 12 Tribes that produced the Messiah. The crown of 12 stars represents the 12 Tribes of Israel.

The labor pains are those of Israel.

No. The woman doesn’t represent Israel.

The vision takes place in the future as John was shown in Chapter 4.

• “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

Revelation 12 is in the time of the great tribulation when Satan will be expressing his dominion through the 10 kingdoms of the world that will be formed.

Satan will be persecuting the Church world wide.


It will be a time when Satan and his angels are cast down to the earth.

For then there will be great tribulation…


Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. Revelation 12:10-13


The tribulation time frame of three and a half years, is plainly stated twice.


Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Revelation 12:6


But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Revelation 12:14