Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

[HealthyShape]

Already answered

Not every invention somebody can come up with is a good answer. The New Testament was talking to and about the first century generation, throughout all the New Testament books.

Never ever is any distant future generation or church mentioned, in the New Testament. Everything was about "we, us, our, you, soon, near, this generation, we who will remain living, some of those standing here, it is the last hour" etc.

Any other kind of eschatology is a later invention, foreign to the New Testament and inserted/forced into the New Testament retrospectively.

If somebody appeared in the first/apostolic church and began to talk about 1948 AD or about Jesus returning in 2025 AD or about some future third Jewish temple etc, they would look totally out of place.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not every invention somebody can come up with is a good answer. The New Testament was talking to and about the first century generation, throughout all the New Testament books.

Never ever is any distant future generation or church mentioned, in the New Testament. Everything was about "we, us, our, you, soon, near, this generation, we who will remain living, some of those standing here, it is the last hour" etc.

Any other kind of eschatology is a later invention, foreign to the New Testament and inserted/forced into the New Testament retrospectively.

If somebody appeared in the first/apostolic church and began to talk about 1948 AD or about Jesus returning in 2025 AD or about some future third Jewish temple etc, they would look totally out of place.

I Disagree With Your Preterist Opinion

The events seen below is "Literal" and "Future" unfulfilled

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[HealthyShape]

I Disagree With Your Preterist Opinion

The events seen below is "Literal" and "Future" unfulfilled

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

You can disagree with whatever you want, but even the quote you are posting again and again was not about 2025, but Jesus was speaking to the people around Him, you just seem to ignore it.
And few verses later, Jesus even says "this generation will not pass until all these things happen" and you also ignore it.

It is not preterism, it is simply the New Testament without twisting it and without ignoring the half of the text.

 

[Truth7t7]

You can disagree with whatever you want, but even the quote you are posting again and again was not about 2025, but Jesus was speaking to the people around Him, you just seem to ignore it.
And few verses later, Jesus even says "this generation will not pass until all these things happen" and you also ignore it.

It is not preterism, it is simply the New Testament without twisting it and without ignoring the half of the text.

Jesus was speaking prophetically to the 1st century Christian's in Jerusalem as representative of the "Future" church that will be eyewitnesses of the signs and actual second coming "This Generation Shall Not Pass"

Did the 1st century Christians and world witness the signs and second coming "Absolutely Not" these are "Future" events unfulfilled

1.) "When you shall see all the things", the signs

2.) "Know that it's near even at the doors" is the "Future" second coming

3.) "The day and hour no man knows", the "Future" second coming

Jesus Is The Lord

Matthew 24:32-36KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[HealthyShape]

Jesus was speaking prophetically to the 1st century Christian's in Jerusalem as representative of the "Future" church

This is your invention foreign to the New Testament. Never ever is this said in the New Testament. It would even contradict the text of the New Testament on many places.

And it is not only about this verse or only about Jesus. All the apostles in the New Testaments were talking about the first church, never ever they mentioned any future church. In other words, your method is not Sola Scriptura, it is changing the text instead of accepting it.

Mainstream scholarship accepts the fact that the apostles and the first church expected the events to happen in their time. This is not preterism, it is just accepting the text and its meaning.

Preterism is saying that this factually and objectively proven meaning of the text was really fulfilled and did not fail. Which can be debated, because we do not have perfect records of all the events and people today are frequently confused by the first century language. But just understanding what the text says, without twisting it and without forcing modern global meanings into it, is not preterism.

Did the 1st century Christians and world witness the signs and second coming "Absolutely Not"

Either they did or the promises and warnings failed. But we have enough records by Josephus and Tacitus that plenty of the sings really happened. For example, the sign of the Son of Man in heavens was seen, angelic armies in the clouds, the temple was really destroyed as predicted, famines, earthquakes, eclipses, comets etc.

 

[Truth7t7]

Either they did or the promises and warnings failed. But we have enough records by Josephus and Tacitus that plenty of the sings really happened. For example, the sign of the Son of Man in heavens was seen, angelic armies in the clouds, the temple was really destroyed as predicted, famines, earthquakes, eclipses, comets etc.

You espouse the false doctrine of "Full Preterism" in false claims there won't be a literal future second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, in false claims its already taken place, the future glorious second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens is a basic foundation and pillar of the Christian faith

Your a "Full Preterist", a heretical teaching and doctrine as considered by many

 

[claninja]

There is a doctor's dissertation on the internet that demonstrates that the date of the writing of Revelation was around 95 AD. If you can handle a dissertation you can get your answer. I guarantee you he has put an end to preterism.

https://www.pre-trib.org/media/k2/assets/Documents/hitchcock-dissertation.pdf

Don't speculate just read the facts. The only possibility for Preterism to be true, is for Revelation to have been written before 70 AD. But, even so, the Preterist position is very weak. Reading doctoral dissertation to arrive at the truth is one of the best ways to keep you from going astray. I have read plenty of these dissertations, and I don't believe everything i read. You will have an authoritative answer to your question about Preterism, at least the date of Revelation.

Not necessarily. According to the preterist understanding of Matthew 24, mark 13, or Luke 21 - Jesus told the disciples that the events of the Olivet discourse would occur within their generation. Additionally, Revelation, written within Jesus’ generation by the presupposed John the disciple (whether pre-70ad or 95ad), states that the events were to “happen soon for the time was near”.

if revelation was written beyond Jesus’ generation (way past 95 ad) or had “far off/distant” language instead of “near to happening language”, then you would definitely have a case against preterism.

 

[Scott Downey]

Not necessarily. According to the preterist understanding of Matthew 24, mark 13, or Luke 21 - Jesus told the disciples that the events of the Olivet discourse would occur within their generation. Additionally, Revelation, written within Jesus’ generation by the presupposed John the disciple (whether pre-70ad or 95ad), states that the events were to “happen soon for the time was near”.

if revelation was written beyond Jesus’ generation (way past 95 ad) or had “far off/distant” language instead of “near to happening language”, then you would definitely have a case against preterism.

Regardless of that there has not been the resurrection of all the dead, has not been the Day of Judgment for the entire world.
Full preterists believe all that has already happened.

Both of those happen on the Last Day
To say 'last day' means afterwards are no more days
The sun, moon stars set the day and the night for men

When Christ returns they no longer shine, they go dark.
We are then in an eternal state of no more time of days and nights.

 

[HealthyShape]

Both of those happen on the Last Day
To say 'last day' means afterwards are no more days
The sun, moon stars set the day and the night for men

When Christ returns they no longer shine, they go dark.
We are then in an eternal state of no more time of days and nights.

When people do not understand the apocalyptic "Galilean" language of the 1st century, a lot of confusion like this happen.

Modern readers tend to read the biblical text from our modern, planetary, 21st astronomical scientific view. We must keep our modern views in check to not project them into the ancient texts.

 

[HealthyShape]

You espouse the false doctrine of "Full Preterism" in false claims there won't be a literal future second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens in false claims its already taken place, the future glorious second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens is a basic foundation and pillar of the Christian faith

Your a "Full Preterist", a heretical teaching and doctrine as considered by many

Cool. Drink a tea every time somebody here says "false" or "heresy".

Again, just accepting what the text says, without twisting it, without ignoring it and considering the 1st century Galilean apocalyptic language, is not preterism, it is just an honest scholarship.

Preterism is inclining to believe the text. Other possibility is that the text (its inspiration) failed. Inventing "futuristic" eschatology is not biblical, it is just a coping mechanism.

Yes, I incline to believe the text, I do not think both Jesus and the apostles were so wrong/mistaken.

I am not a preterist in some "set in stone" meaning. It is just what I see in the text and in historical records of Josephus and Tacitus. I grew up as a dispensationalist focused on Israel and similar till my late twenties, since my late twenties I also studied and kind of adopted the historical reformed eschatology (pope = antichrist), until I finally found more grounded and simpler reading of the text ("preterism") in my 30's and since then, I have seen no good reason or arguments to change my views back to those previous kinds of eschatology.

 

[Scott Downey]

When people do not understand the apocalyptic "Galilean" language of the 1st century, a lot of confusion like this happen.

Modern readers tend to read the biblical text from our modern, planetary, 21st astronomical scientific view. We must keep our modern views in check to not project them into the ancient texts.

I realize you are a natural man, and don't believe in supernatural events.
And that all things continue on as they have since the beginning of time.

 

[HealthyShape]

I realize you are a natural man, and don't believe in supernatural events.
And that all things continue on as they have since the beginning of time.

Your reading skills are poor. I said we must understand the language of the 1st century and be careful not to project our modern views into the ancient texts.

It has nothing to do with believing or unbelieving in supernatural events. It is only about learning what the text we read actually means.

For example, when we read "the whole world" or "all the tribes of the earth", we automatically imagine something different than the people in the first century Judea. The meanings of the terms changed.

 

[Scott Downey]

Your reading skills are poor. I said we must understand the language of the 1st century and be careful not to project our modern views into the ancient texts.

It has nothing to do with believing or unbelieving in supernatural events. It is only about learning what the text we read actually means.

For example, when we read "the whole world" or "all the tribes of the earth", we automatically imagine something different than the people in the first century Judea. The meanings of the terms changed.

Actually, that is your POV on the scripture, not reality.
Reality is scripture still applies to us today for faith and practice.

Because of your POV, scripture has no application to us today as it was written for them, and not us today.
Meaning logically, it means nothing to us, the people of 2000 years ago were the intended audience of various authors, such as Christ, Paul, Peter, James, Luke, Matthew, on and on.

I don't even know why you are here.

 

[HealthyShape]

Actually, that is your POV on the scripture, not reality.
Reality is scripture still applies to us today for faith and practice.

Because of your POV, scripture has no application to us today as it was written for them, and not us today.
Meaning logically, it means nothing to us, the people of 2000 years ago were the intended audience of various authors, such as Christ, Paul, Peter, James, Luke, Matthew, on and on.

I don't even know why you are here.

Learning what the authors of the Scripture meant is simply paying respect to the Scriptures, to the reality of the text. It is not my POV. On the other hand, reading it without a willingness to learn what they meant and how they thought is disrespectful to the Scriptures.

Scripture has plenty of application today - faith in Christ, sin, the kingdom of God, moral principles... Do you really think that eschatology is all that is there?

I am here to discuss it, like you are.

 

[Truth7t7]

Learning what the authors of the Scripture meant is simply paying respect to the Scriptures, to the reality of the text. It is not my POV. On the other hand, reading it without a willingness to learn what they meant and how they thought is disrespectful to the Scriptures.

Scripture has plenty of application today - faith in Christ, sin, the kingdom of God, moral principles... Do you really think that eschatology is all that is there?

I am here to discuss it, like you are.

I would like to ask a few questions on your belief?

1.) Your belief on a future resurrection of the believer and the glorified eternal body received? 1 Corinthians chapter 15

2.) Your belief on a future New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, for the righteous? Rev chapter 21-22

3.) Your belief on eternal damnation in conscious torment of the unsaved wicked in the Lake Of Fire? Rev 14:9-11, Rev 20:11-15

 

[Scott Downey]

Learning what the authors of the Scripture meant is simply paying respect to the Scriptures, to the reality of the text. It is not my POV. On the other hand, reading it without a willingness to learn what they meant and how they thought is disrespectful to the Scriptures.

Scripture has plenty of application today - faith in Christ, sin, the kingdom of God, moral principles... Do you really think that eschatology is all that is there?

I am here to discuss it, like you are.

Do you believe all the scriptures have been fulfilled so there is nothing left to happen?
Including the resurrection of the dead and the Day of Judgment?
Both happen before the New Earth and New heaven.

If so, then why are you here.

 

[claninja]

Regardless of that there has not been the resurrection of all the dead, has not been the Day of Judgment for the entire world.
Full preterists believe all that has already happened.

Both of those happen on the Last Day
To say 'last day' means afterwards are no more days
The sun, moon stars set the day and the night for men

When Christ returns they no longer shine, they go dark.
We are then in an eternal state of no more time of days and nights.

This doesn’t address my point.

 

[Scott Downey]

This doesn’t address my point.

It is a good point about how we are not in the New Earth and new heavens today.

 

[Scott Downey]

This doesn’t address my point.

It has been foretold the Sun and Moon light and the stars will go dark.
When Christ returns, His light will be the only light of the world.
Every eye will be drawn to the light of His coming.
It will be impossible to miss from all over the earth.

Isaiah 13:9-11
New King James Version

9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

11 “I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the [a]terrible.


Psalm 104:19
He appointed the moon for seasons; The sun knows its going down.

Isaiah 24
21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the [f]pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.

Revelation 21:23
The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

Revelation 22:5
There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Mark 13:24
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

 

[rwb]

No the Lord wasn't speaking to the church about a 2,000 year ongoing tribulation that leads up to the second coming

False reformed theology in their ongoing 2,000 year tribulation is no different than dispensationals 2,000 year gap between the 69th & 70th week same thing

The scripture is speaking to a future church in Jerusalem that will be eyewitnesses of the signs and second coming (This Generation Shall Not Pass) not 2,000 years of generations

Have men's hearts been failing, the heavens shaking for the past 2,000 years in preceding the Lord second coming "No", its going to be a specific future time in history, your bending and twisting scripture isn't invisible

No denial to the fact every eye shall see him in a future event unfulfilled, this has never been a point of debate

Do you believe Daniel's AOD has taken place in history Matthew 24:15?

I have posted for years before your eyes my open opposition to a future 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, Matthew chapter 24 and the timing of events have absolutely nothing to do with pre-millenialism as you bring a false accusation in diversion

I've never denied the fact that the Lord's kingdom is spiritually present upon this earth today, and I openly oppose premillennialism that teaches otherwise, just more false claims in diversion

What exactly is your eschatological point of view? You loathe amillennialism, you deny being premillennial, that leaves post millennial? Do you believe that the world will eventually become Christianized and that the millennium will be an unknown long period of world righteousness and peace on earth after Christ comes again?