That's good news!
What's more important than escaping the EVERLASTING fire? NOTHING!
Hell will be filled with BILLIONS of humans! Jesus said so.
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The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)
- Thread starter Hiddenthings
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Hey PS95....all good here.
Don't know what a Christadelphian is but I know heresy when I hear it.
(heresey...non orthodox (small o) teachings).
Thanks!
Do YOU make scriptural truth?
The story Jesus told is to let us know what happens at death.
And you're right...
we never die at all.....
Your number 18 shows how biblically illiterate you are (excuse me)....
If 1 Corinthians 15:12-18 is correct
and your number 18 is correct.....
and Paul is saying that when we die we PERISH....
then why would Jesus teach something that is not true?
if we perish
WHY
Were those in Abraham's bossom SPEAKING TO those that were in hell??
Has Jesus told us any other lies??
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The trap of human reasoning
Based on your human reasoning, everything JESUS spoke was just a parable!!!
How many other things in Scripture do you make excuses for so as not to believe!!!
Jesus explains if you read the scriptures I have posted in my last post, 1. Jesus explains all things to his disciples in private.
2. Jesus words when he prays to his Father is most likely not a parable. 3. When Jesus teaches his believing followers.
But I have noticed that when he talks to the Pharisees or people that oppose his teachings, the scriptures I posted explain he will always talk in parables.
If we can't use the words in the scriptures to understand Bible subjects, what are we supposed to use, something that is not in the Bible, or some persons advice?
PS95
Well-Known Member
Hello Walter. You are a member of the JW religion? Do you agree that faithful/discreet slave is a Parable? Matt 24:45-51
Romans 6:23 WEB
(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 3:15-16 UASV+
(15) so that everyone believing in him will have eternal life."
(16) For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that whoever believes in him will not be destroyed but have eternal life.
The most important thing is escaping death - not being destroyed. We are all sinners, born with an inherited sinful nature, so we all earn the death penalty. But God's free gift (we cannot earn it) is eternal life. The Scriptures plainly teach that the only way we can have eternal life is through belief in Jesus and obedience to his commands. The alternative is not also eternal life, a most miserable one, it is the second death - eternal death.
You keep saying that, but you've not provided any quotes of Scripture to back that up.
No. Do you?
I believe that you are mistaken. You're not taking the passage in context - Luke 16:13-14 (WEB):
(13) No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to one, and despise the other. You aren’t able to serve God and Mammon.”
(14) The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they scoffed at him.
Jesus was talking about how you can't serve God and the desire for wealth. The Pharisees then ridculed and made fun of him becasue of what he said. So why would Jesus then tell them a story to explain what happens to people when they die?
I never said that. The expression "fallen asleep in Christ" means being a Christian when you die. Acts 13:36 (WEB):
(36) For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid with his fathers, and saw decay.
David was, and still is, dead. He was buried and his body started decaying after he "fell asleep", i.e. after he died.
You obviously didn't understand the Scripture verses that I quoted! Paul didn't say that when we die we perish. He was arguing with the Sadduces, who didn't believe in the resurrection, saying that IF there is no resurrection of the dead then when we die we will have perished. However, there will be a resurrection of the dead, so we will not perish when we die - Jesus has saved us from the penalty for sin (death).
However, after the resurrection there will be a restoration to human perfection and then a testing for all non-Christians, and those that fail that final test will be destroyed (symbolically described as being thrown into an intense fire that will never extingush, meaning that whatever is thrown into it cannot escape being entirely consumed, or destroyed), which we are plainly told is the second death. There will be no more redemption after that (Jesus is now immortal, he cannot sacrifice his life again - he died "once for all" - Hebrews 9:12), so the second death will be an eternal death and destruction, they will perish forever.
Those? The parable only mentions three people, the rich man, Lazarus and Abraham. No, Lazarus did not reply to the rich man in the parable, because the rich man was addressing Abraham. Why do you ask?!
Jesus has not told any lies.
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Jesus affirmed in that parable that those who have just Moses and the Prophets can be saved and that those who listen to them will be saved. Likewise, Hebrews 11, it lists examples of people who had saving faith in spite of having never read the NT, so that is not a requirement for salvation.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
#1 - JESUS did not explain all things privately. JESUS gave the interpretation in many things and they are recorded in the Gospel.
#2 - JESUS spoke in parables and also in direct, matter of fact, language. This also is recorded for all to see.
#3 - The factual account given by JESUS of the rich man, Lazarus and Abraham is never alluded to as a parable by JESUS or the disciples.
This is evident in the subject matter along with there being no need for interpretation based on 'matter of fact' accounting.
#4 - All that is spoken in the context of this passage is also reiterated by JESUS in the Gospel and by the Apostles in their writings/letters.
Thank you for your comments I will keep them in mind, peace and happiness be with you and your family.
Next time I will ask one question, and let Jesus and the Apostles do all the talking.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
THANK YOU for your kind words - SHALOM in JESUS to you and yours as wellThank you for your comments I will keep them in mind, peace and happiness be with you and your family.
The main point that i am trying to convey is that the very things spoken of in this passage was repeated by JESUS concerning:
a.) rich people who enter into hell because of the sins of greed and refusal to help those in need
b.) The Gospel was preached to Abraham and Abraham believed the Word unto Righteousness, thus he is the 'Father' of righteousness for all who believe with Abraham = thusly the emphasis of Abraham by JESUS
c.) God's love for the poor and destitute = not a sparrow falls to the Ground without the FATHER knowing of it"
The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; My God, my strength, in whom I will trust; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. - Psalm 18:2
Good points I respect your view, every scripture helps with understanding.
ONLY for believers!
There you go!
"Death" NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible! NEVER!
You're just not paying attention.
Mt 7 Narrow is the way to Life and FEW there be who find it!
That clearly means BILLIONS of humans will burn in Hell Fire FOREVER!
Bladerunner
Active Member
the Rich man and Lazarus is not a parable...Jesus always on every parable addressed them as such. By looking at it as a parable, it offers for one to interpret what it means..However, as a story, it tells us what it means..
Luke 16 Lazarus and the rich man, definitely not a parable! Totally in agreement with the rest of Jesus' warnings!
John 3:16-17 WEB
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(17) For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
John 12:48 WEB
(48) He who rejects me, and doesn’t receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
Everyone that dies as a non-believer is still redeemed from the penalty of sin - the whole world of mankind is saved from sin by Jesus' sacrifice, and everyone will therefore be resurrected to life again. However, during Christ's 1,000 year reign - the Day of Judgement - those resurrected unbelievers, living as humans on the earth, will be living under the righteous rule of Christ, without the deceptions of Satan who will be restrained until the end of the 1,000 years, and will have full knowledge (no doubts) of Jesus and God, and God's commandments. They will be restored to human perfection, and God has allocated up to 1,000 years for their restoration - this is not the narrow difficult path that Christians follow to gain eternal life, it is a wider, easier path:
Matthew 7:13-14 WEB
(13) “Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it.
(14) How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.
(Note that the path that doesn't lead to life leads to destruction, not eternal torture in fire.)
Isaiah 35:4-10 WEB
(4) Tell those who have a fearful heart, “Be strong. Don’t be afraid. Behold, your God will come with vengeance, God’s retribution. He will come and save you.
(5) Then the eyes of the blind will be opened, and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.
(6) Then the lame man will leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute will sing; for waters will break out in the wilderness, and streams in the desert.
(7) The burning sand will become a pool, and the thirsty ground springs of water. Grass with reeds and rushes will be in the habitation of jackals, where they lay.
(8) A highway will be there, a road, and it will be called The Holy Way. The unclean shall not pass over it, but it will be for those who walk in the Way. Wicked fools will not go there.
(9) No lion will be there, nor will any ravenous animal go up on it. They will not be found there; but the redeemed will walk there.
(10) Then Yahweh’s ransomed ones will return, and come with singing to Zion; and everlasting joy will be on their heads. They will obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.”
Everyone that will have their names written in the book of life, i.e. will have been judged at the end of the 1,000 years reign of Christ to be worthy of eternal life, will be believers. The same words of Jesus and God will apply and be used to judge them as they are to judge Christians (whose trial is this present life, not the life after resurrection). Only those that believe in Jesus will not perish and will have eternal life, whether they take the narrow, more difficult path and become Christians, or whether they become believers after they are resurrected.
I never wrote "cease to exist", I just quoted verses that say that the second death is destruction. But you are right! For example, Satan is going to destroyed (death):
Hebrews 2:14 KJV
(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And God tells us in Ezekiel that this means that he will no longer exist - Ezekiel 28:13-19 (WEB):
(13) You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz, emerald, chrysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and beryl. Gold work of tambourines and of pipes was in you. They were prepared in the day that you were created.
(14) You were the anointed cherub who covers. Then I set you up on the holy mountain of God. You have walked up and down in the middle of the stones of fire.
(15) You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you.
(16) By the abundance of your commerce, your insides were filled with violence, and you have sinned. Therefore I have cast you as profane out of God’s mountain. I have destroyed you, covering cherub, from the middle of the stones of fire.
(17) Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty. You have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground. I have laid you before kings, that they may see you.
(18) By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your commerce, you have profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought out a fire from the middle of you. It has devoured you. I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all those who see you.
(19) All those who know you among the peoples will be astonished at you. You have become a terror, and you will exist no more.”’”
I was paying attention. You have not mentioned Matthew 7 before in this thread. I've quoted Matthew 7:14 above and explained that although comparatively few people become true Christians (although it's still a lot of people!), nevertheless God's plan provides a way for non-Christians to still become believers and gain eternal life during Christ's 1,000 year reign on the earth. Many will fail to gain eternal life, for Revelation 20:7-8 tell us that after Satan is released after the 1,000 years that he will deceive many people, "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea" - an expression which means they can't be counted because there are so many. What the actual number will be we can only speculate.
You will learn! BILLIONS of humans will learn in Hell. Jesus said so.
Mt 7 Narrow is the way to Life and FEW there be who find it.
I hope you do.
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