Who Really Are The 144,000?

[rebuilder 454]

All Jews that come to faith in Jesus, ever since Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was made available to ALL of human flesh, ARE OF "the Great Multitude".

No brainer since the first church was Jewish.
You are preaching to the choir.

I am saying the ETHNIC UNBELIEVING JEWS ARE BROUGHT IN ..YES ....THROUGH JESUS ....AS WE SEE PROPHESIED ALL THROUGH THE BIBLE.

Read Ruth.
Read romans 11
Read Rev 14.
Note the components of "firstfruits"
Note the component of "tribes"

Then study harvest.
Learn WHO "THE FIRSTFRUITS" IS concerning the church.
Then ask yourself why the 144k are "FIRSTFRUITS ".
Your doctrine will 100% fail you.
The firstfruits understanding alone is radically problematic.

Omission will never get you to truth.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Nope.
The 144k are in heaven right before the wrath.
They are firstfruits.
They are ethnic Jews, described 2 different ways as ETHNIC JEWS.

Romans 11 fulfilled.

Jesus never said that only ethnic Jews would be sealed at the end. Instead, He clearly said the chosen are gathered from every nation and language. In Matthew 24:31, He said: “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This is not limited to Israel’s bloodline, but includes all who believe and obey Him.

John also saw this in Revelation 7. The 144,000 are indeed listed by tribes, but right after that he says: “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands” (Revelation 7:9). This shows the vision is symbolic. The number 144,000 represents completeness, while the “great multitude” explains the reality — faithful ones from every nation.

Jesus also made clear that being born of Abraham’s blood does not give eternal standing. To the Jews, He said: “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham” (John 8:39). And again: “Do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones” (Matthew 3:9). This proves the seal is not about ethnic blood but about obedience and faithfulness to God.

Peter also called believers “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation” (1 Peter 2:9), language that once belonged only to Israel but now applies to all faithful in Christ. Paul also spoke in Romans 11 of the olive tree, where the natural branches that did not believe were cut off, and believing gentiles were grafted in, proving again that the true Israel is made of all who believe and continue in God’s covenant.

Even the Old Testament foretold this. Isaiah 56:6–7 says that foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, love His name, and keep His covenant will be brought to His holy mountain, and His house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.

So the 144,000 are not simply ethnic Jews. They are firstfruits because they belong fully to God, kept pure and faithful, but they represent the whole redeemed people, from every nation. The sealing in their foreheads is God’s mark of ownership and protection before the final wrath comes (Revelation 7:3), and it includes all who do His will, not just those of one bloodline.

 

[Earburner]

Very Good O.P., thank you. About the seal itself, In the book of Revelation, the “seal on the forehead” of the 144,000 is a sign of belonging to God and of His protection.

In Revelation 7:3–4 (NKJV) it says:
“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.”

According to the Amil view, the sealing of the symbolic 144,000 OC saints took place immediately AFTER Jesus' death. Mat. 27:50-54.

That which is "of great tribulation" began in 70 AD. and has been on going since then.

There has never been, nor will there ever be, a 3.5 year or 7.0 year period of time called "The Great Tribulation". Such a notion of belief is conjured up by misinterpreting Dan. 9:24-27.

Later in Revelation 14:1 (NKJV) John adds:
“Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.”

Yes. All the OC saints that had died in faith, while they had life under the OC., they are shown in Rev. 6:9-11 having received the "white robe", aka the Holy Spirit. To understand this, see John 7:39.

So the seal is the name of God the Father written on their foreheads. This does not mean a visible mark like ink, but rather a spiritual sign showing that they truly belong to God, think according to His will, and are under His care.

Amen. In heaven, the OC saints are asleep under His care!! Rev. 6:9-11.

Jesus also said in John 10:27–28 (NKJV):
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.”

The seal works in the same way—it shows who are His, and no one can take them away from Him.

Amen!! The saints who had died in faith under the OC., their names were written in God's book of Remembrance (Malachi 3:16) until Jesus was "Glorified", aka resurrected (John 7:39). Immediately then, they were given the Holy Spirit and then translated into the book of life.

The seal on the forehead of the 144,000 is God’s name, showing that they belong fully to Him, are protected by Him, and are marked as His true servants who follow the Lamb.

Blessings.

Amen!

 

[Earburner]

No brainer since the first church was Jewish.
You are preaching to the choir.

I am saying the ETHNIC UNBELIEVING JEWS ARE BROUGHT IN ..YES ....THROUGH JESUS ....AS WE SEE PROPHESIED ALL THROUGH THE BIBLE.

Read Ruth.
Read romans 11
Read Rev 14.
Note the components of "firstfruits"
Note the component of "tribes"

Then study harvest.
Learn WHO "THE FIRSTFRUITS" IS concerning the church.
Then ask yourself why the 144k are "FIRSTFRUITS ".
Your doctrine will 100% fail you.
The firstfruits understanding alone is radically problematic.

Omission will never get you to truth.

No! You must ask who the firstfruits ARE, as I have described them in my post #343.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No! You must ask who the firstfruits ARE, as I have described them in my post #343.

We are TOLD who they are.
No question.

 

[rebuilder 454]

i

According to the Amil view, the sealing of the symbolic 144,000 OC saints took place immediately AFTER Jesus' death. Mat. 27:50-54.

That which is "of great tribulation" began in 70 AD. and has been on going since then.

There has never been, nor will there ever be, a 3.5 year or 7.0 year period of time called "The Great Tribulation". Such a notion of belief is conjured up by misinterpreting Dan. 9:24-27.

Yes. All the OC saints that had died in faith, while they had life under the OC., they are shown in Rev. 6:9-11 having received the "white robe", aka the Holy Spirit. To understand this, see John 7:39.

Amen. In heaven, the OC saints are asleep under His care!! Rev. 6:9-11.

Amen!! The saints who had died in faith under the OC., their names were written in God's book of Remembrance (Malachi 3:16) until Jesus was "Glorified", aka resurrected (John 7:39). Immediately then, they were given the Holy Spirit and then translated into the book of life.

Amen!

Ok
I was instructed to view this post to understand all about firstfruits.

Nope not anything there.
Zero

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus never said that only ethnic Jews would be sealed at the end. Instead, He clearly said the chosen are gathered from every nation and language. In Matthew 24:31, He said: “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This is not limited to Israel’s bloodline, but includes all who believe and obey Him.

John also saw this in Revelation 7. The 144,000 are indeed listed by tribes, but right after that he says: “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands” (Revelation 7:9). This shows the vision is symbolic. The number 144,000 represents completeness, while the “great multitude” explains the reality — faithful ones from every nation.

Jesus also made clear that being born of Abraham’s blood does not give eternal standing. To the Jews, He said: “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham” (John 8:39). And again: “Do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones” (Matthew 3:9). This proves the seal is not about ethnic blood but about obedience and faithfulness to God.

Peter also called believers “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation” (1 Peter 2:9), language that once belonged only to Israel but now applies to all faithful in Christ. Paul also spoke in Romans 11 of the olive tree, where the natural branches that did not believe were cut off, and believing gentiles were grafted in, proving again that the true Israel is made of all who believe and continue in God’s covenant.

Even the Old Testament foretold this. Isaiah 56:6–7 says that foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, love His name, and keep His covenant will be brought to His holy mountain, and His house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.

So the 144,000 are not simply ethnic Jews. They are firstfruits because they belong fully to God, kept pure and faithful, but they represent the whole redeemed people, from every nation. The sealing in their foreheads is God’s mark of ownership and protection before the final wrath comes (Revelation 7:3), and it includes all who do His will, not just those of one bloodline.

Nope they are VIVIDLY DESCRIBED as ethnic Jews.
How could you possibly miss it.
Amazing

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus never said that only ethnic Jews would be sealed at the end. Instead, He clearly said the chosen are gathered from every nation and language. In Matthew 24:31, He said: “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This is not limited to Israel’s bloodline, but includes all who believe and obey Him.

John also saw this in Revelation 7. The 144,000 are indeed listed by tribes, but right after that he says: “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands” (Revelation 7:9). This shows the vision is symbolic. The number 144,000 represents completeness, while the “great multitude” explains the reality — faithful ones from every nation.

Jesus also made clear that being born of Abraham’s blood does not give eternal standing. To the Jews, He said: “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham” (John 8:39). And again: “Do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones” (Matthew 3:9). This proves the seal is not about ethnic blood but about obedience and faithfulness to God.

Peter also called believers “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation” (1 Peter 2:9), language that once belonged only to Israel but now applies to all faithful in Christ. Paul also spoke in Romans 11 of the olive tree, where the natural branches that did not believe were cut off, and believing gentiles were grafted in, proving again that the true Israel is made of all who believe and continue in God’s covenant.

Even the Old Testament foretold this. Isaiah 56:6–7 says that foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, love His name, and keep His covenant will be brought to His holy mountain, and His house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.

So the 144,000 are not simply ethnic Jews. They are firstfruits because they belong fully to God, kept pure and faithful, but they represent the whole redeemed people, from every nation. The sealing in their foreheads is God’s mark of ownership and protection before the final wrath comes (Revelation 7:3), and it includes all who do His will, not just those of one bloodline.

I just shake my head that you do not know what firstfruits means.

Huh?

 

[LoveYeshua]

Nope they are VIVIDLY DESCRIBED as ethnic Jews.
How could you possibly miss it.
Amazing

I am certainly not infallible and you could be right. Normally we have to go with scripture and the context of the book of revelations where symbolism abound in this case.
In Revelation 7 the 144,000 are indeed listed “out of every tribe of the children of Israel,” with twelve thousand named from each tribe (Revelation 7:4–8 NKJV). On the surface, that does sound like they are ethnic Jews. But we must look more carefully.

First, the list of tribes in Revelation 7 is not the same as the Old Testament listings of the twelve tribes. Dan is missing, Ephraim is not named, and Joseph is included — showing that this is not a normal genealogical list but a symbolic one. Scripture often uses Israel language to describe God’s faithful people. For example, Jesus told His disciples that they would “sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28), showing a spiritual meaning, not just bloodline.

Second, Revelation 14 calls the 144,000 “firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” (Revelation 14:4). Firstfruits in Scripture always point to those who are set apart as holy, not only ethnic descent.

Finally, Revelation itself says that God’s true Israel is made of those who are sealed, washed, and faithful to the Lamb. Earlier in Revelation, Jesus spoke of those “who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9). This shows that being an ethnic Jew alone does not make someone part of God’s people — what matters is faith and obedience.

So while the text uses the names of the tribes of Israel, it is best understood as a symbolic description of God’s faithful servants, both from Israel and from the nations.

 

[quietthinker]

Nope.
The 144k are in heaven right before the wrath.
They are firstfruits.
They are ethnic Jews, described 2 different ways as ETHNIC JEWS.

Romans 11 fulfilled.

Consider this combo...Revelation 7:4... Then Revelation 7:9...
Firstly specific numbers are given THEN a great multitude no-one could number.
First John HEARS.....then he SEES what he has been hearing. This is the same crowd.

 

[Earburner]

We are TOLD who they are.
No question.

You don't know who they are, for if you did, you would be out to prove me wrong.

 

[marks]

You don't know who they are, for if you did, you would be out to prove me wrong.

We are in fact told exactly who they are. They are 12,000 Israelites from each of 12 tribes, sealed on earth, firstfruits.

Whether I know this are not has no relation to whether I want to try to "prove" this to someone else. Those are two very different issues.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Consider this combo...Revelation 7:4... Then Revelation 7:9...
Firstly specific numbers are given THEN a great multitude no-one could number.
First John HEARS.....then he SEES what he has been hearing. This is the same crowd.

One is on the earth, one is in heaven. One is counted out. One is innumerable.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I just shake my head that you do not know what firstfruits means.

Huh?

And there is the matter of firstfruits of what?

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

One is on the earth, one is in heaven. One is counted out. One is innumerable.

Much love!

the same crowd.

 

[Earburner]

We are in fact told exactly who they are. They are 12,000 Israelites from each of 12 tribes, sealed on earth, firstfruits.

Whether I know this are not has no relation to whether I want to try to "prove" this to someone else. Those are two very different issues.

Much love!

The reality of it all is there are symbolically 12,000 taken out of each of the twelve named tribes exactly.
Therefore figuratively, we conclude that it all totals upto 144,000 perfectly, which implies the fulness of God's perfection in every living Israelite who lived under the OC by faith. Some of their names were Moses, Abel, Noah, Isaac etc.
And even the thousands whose names we will never know, but....... God DID remember them all (Malachi 3-16), and never forgot a one. Rev. 6:9-11.

Q. So then if we are "a kind of first fruits" as James 1 says, who ARE the actual first fruits?
A. All those who had died in faith of "the promise to come", ever since Adam and Eve, upto the first appearance of Jesus, the Giver of Eternal Life through the permanent indwelling of His Holy Spirit, to everyone who repents towards God and believes in Jesus. John 7:39.

 

[quietthinker]

The reality of it all is there are symbolically 12,000 taken out of each of the twelve named tribes exactly.
Therefore figuratively, we conclude that it all totals upto 144,000 perfectly, which implies the fulness of God's perfection in every living Israelite who lived under the OC by faith. Some of their names were Moses, Abel, Noah, Isaac etc.
And even the thousands whose names we will never know, but....... God DID remember them all (Malachi 3-16), and never forgot a one. Rev. 6:9-11.

The question is raised, are numbers representative of other than the sum of its digits. I would suggest yes.
Are the names of the tribes....even the name of their collective 'Israel' other than the literal. I would suggest yes.

 

[Earburner]

The question is raised, are numbers representative of other than the sum of its digits. I would suggest yes.
Are the names of the tribes....even the name of their collective 'Israel' other than the literal. I would suggest yes.

I agree! I will not believe that God would reject people of faith, so that He may have perfect numbers for a perfect total. Therefore, I conclude that the 12000 per the 12 tribes under the OC., for a total of a 144,000 is highly symbolic and figurative, demonstrating that God did not miss a one of whom He "Remembered".
Malachi 3:16 did become Rev. 6:9-11.

 

[Exegesis]

Nope they are VIVIDLY DESCRIBED as ethnic Jews.
How could you possibly miss it.
Amazing

Jews are generally from the tribe of Judah and Benjamin.

 

[Exegesis]

You made an assumption right at the beginning of your OP:

Rev 7:1-4
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

That above description is about the very end of this present world.

This event could be describing what happened in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 9:3-4 - "And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer’s inkhorn by his side; And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof."

How are you so sure your assumption is correct?