Who Really Are The 144,000?

[Earburner]

It appears that neither "Davy" or "atpollard" understand the dilemma that neither can escape from.
Given their back and forth issue on reading the words of God literally or verbatim, how does anyone else here view the Rich man and Lazarus? Luke 16:19-31. Should it be read literally or verbatim?
If you are unsure of the definitions for the words literally or verbatim, see my post #297.

 

[Davy]

It appears that neither "Davy" or "atpollard" understand the dilemma that neither can escape from.
Given their back and forth issue on reading the words of God literally or verbatim, how does anyone else here view the Rich man and Lazarus? Luke 16:19-31. Should it be read literally or verbatim?
If you are unsure of the definitions for the words literally or verbatim, see my post #297.

Only someone confused on how to understand God's written Word would say & think the above statements.

Jesus' story about Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16 was about LITERAL things. Rev.12:7 reveals that the abode called "hell" is actually in the Heavenly dimension, and not inside the earth that primitive minds think. Satan's abode is in hell, for he is the angel of the bottomless pit we are told in Rev.9. And that abode is in the Heavenly dimension, which he is booted out of with his angels after the war in Heaven between him and the Archangel Michael, per Rev.12:7, which is still future.

So just as there actually IS... a Heavenly dimension, in contrast to this earthly dimension we live in, likewise there is a place of separation between God and His angels, and the Patriarchs like Abraham who is mentioned in Luke 16 comforting Lazarus, vs. Satan's abode of hell where the rich man's spirit was taken to by the angels.

Abraham said there was a great gulf fixed border there in Heaven between where he and Lazarus was, vs. hell where the rich man was. LITERAL.

But the Orthodox Jews TRY to say what Jesus was revealing there is just a FABRICATION, and not really how it is.

One of the reasons is because the Jews believe that when our flesh dies, our soul dies with our flesh, and has no continued existence until raised from the casket. But of course the Jews don't really pay attention to Old Testament Scripture like Eccl.12:5-7 that reveals our 'spirit' goes back to God when our flesh dies, and per Jesus in Matt.10:28 our soul is not killed with our flesh. Therefore, the Jews refuse to believe what Jesus was teaching about the abode of hell, the great gulf fixed border, and the side with Abraham, as being LITERAL.

 

[Davy]

Here's a PARABLE Lord Jesus gave His elect, and it might be a shocker to some here, especially unbelieving JEWS here.

A parable is a story using actual real objects or things, but applied as a figure of speech. It still points to something that is LITERAL. And that is a method of teaching The LORD uses, as recorded in His written Word. We are to be smart enough to recognize when a parable or figure of speech is being given, and then understand that there is a Message in it pointing to some LITERAL fact or Truth.

Matt 13:24-30
24 Another parable put He forth unto them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, 'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 He said unto them, 'An enemy hath done this.' The servants said unto him, 'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 But he said, 'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, 'Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.'
KJV


The above Scripture is a PARABLE Jesus gave to the multitude He was speaking to. He used real objects in the parable, but the meaning of the parable was HIDDEN in metaphorical speech.

Matt 13:34-35
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake He not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, 'I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.'
KJV

So how might the PRIMITIVE MIND think about that, with Jesus saying He would open His mouth in parables, and utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world? Speaking of sowing weeds along with good wheat, then separating them at harvest time, and throwing the weeds ("tares") into the fire, but the wheat into the barn, what's so revealing about that as a secret kept from the foundation of the world??

Obviously, the PRIMITIVE MIND that has very limited ability of abstract thinking, is befuddled by the above parable. So they pass it off as pretty much meaningless.


But then here comes along Jesus' disciples when He and they went into the house in private. And they then ask Him to EXPLAIN the parable of the tares of the field. This part is all LITERAL...

Matt 13:36
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."
KJV

Note: the following Scripture by Lord Jesus is an EXPLANATION of His parable of the tares of the field, NOT ANOTHER PARABLE.

Matt 13:37-43
37 He answered and said unto them, "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

Now remember, Jesus said through parable He was revealing things that had been kept secret from the foundation of the world. That means He was pointing back to the start of this 2nd world earth age, the start of this present world we are in now.

Per Hebrews, all things were created by Jesus Christ. He is Who created us and sowed us into a flesh body of today. The "good seed" represents His children that belong to Him, His servants sown in the flesh upon this earth.

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Again, the "good seed" represents to whom the Kingdom has been prepared since the foundation of the world (His faithful Church per Ephesians 1).

But the "tares", the weeds that look like real wheat while they are growing, those are the children of the wicked one, i.e., the devil. They belong to the devil, and are his servants here on earth.

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The devil himself sowed those "tares" on earth, which is why they belong to him, and willingly serve him.

The wheat time harvest Jesus uses to point to the harvest of souls on the last day of this world by His angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

And just as real "tares" (weeds) are cast into the fire at harvest, so likewise Satan's children he sowed that reject Jesus Christ will be cast into the "lake of fire" after Christ's future 1,000 years reign of Rev.20.

41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The "wailing and gnashing of teeth" is a metaphor Jesus used to point to being cast to the "outer darkness" that will exist on earth during His 1,000 years reign, which is about a place for the unsaved on earth outside the gates of the Holy City on earth. This is shown in Rev.22:14-15, Matt.8:12, Matt.22:13, and Matt.25:30.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

And again, because the PRIMITIVE MIND cannot believe the above EXPLANATION, because it covers LITERAL SPIRITUAL FACTS OF REALITY about God's creation and Satan's rebellion, which are REAL EVENTS, the above EXPLANATION by Lord Jesus Christ is just TOO FANTASTIC for the PRIMITIVE MIND to believe. So they just pass it off as meaningless metaphorical speech with NO LITERAL MESSAGE, kind of like poetry. Heck, they probably even criticize the 1611 KJV Bible for being so difficult to understand, because of the above parable by Lord Jesus; anything to DENY any reality to Lord Jesus' EXPLANATION above.

 

[atpollard]

It appears that neither "Davy" or "atpollard" understand the dilemma that neither can escape from.
Given their back and forth issue on reading the words of God literally or verbatim, how does anyone else here view the Rich man and Lazarus? Luke 16:19-31. Should it be read literally or verbatim?
If you are unsure of the definitions for the words literally or verbatim, see my post #297.

I think that the definitions of "LITERAL" and "VERBATIM" are far enough apart, but not antonyms of one another, that your observation is a non sequitur.

The issue for me is simple, metaphors are not LITERAL ... no matter how many times anyone insists to the contrary. The essence of Literal is that it means exactly what it says ... a gate is a gate; people are not gates. A metaphor involves non-literal symbolism ... a fire is judgement or a sheep is a person.

 

[atpollard]

Luke 16:19-31. Should it be read literally or verbatim?

The story in Luke is "verbatim" (word for word what Luke was told that Jesus said). While many believe it to be a parable, and not "literal", I disagree. I believe that Jesus would have no need to fabricate a false narrative of the afterlife when He possessed accurate knowledge of the truth ... so the story is also LITERALLY true [although it employs Hebrew idioms that must be recognized as idioms and, therefore not literal].

ie. Abraham's bosom was a phrase that referred to "paradise" in the underworld [holding place of the dead] ... so he was not literally in someone's chest. It is comparable to our saying "it was raining cats and dogs" does not mean that animals literally fell from the sky, but it does mean that it was literally raining very hard. One does not say "it was raining cats and dogs" to describe a merely cloudy day.

 

[Earburner]

Only someone confused on how to understand God's written Word would say & think the above statements.

Jesus' story about Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16 was about LITERAL things. Rev.12:7 reveals that the abode called "hell" is actually in the Heavenly dimension, and not inside the earth that primitive minds think. Satan's abode is in hell, for he is the angel of the bottomless pit we are told in Rev.9. And that abode is in the Heavenly dimension, which he is booted out of with his angels after the war in Heaven between him and the Archangel Michael, per Rev.12:7, which is still future.

So just as there actually IS... a Heavenly dimension, in contrast to this earthly dimension we live in, likewise there is a place of separation between God and His angels, and the Patriarchs like Abraham who is mentioned in Luke 16 comforting Lazarus, vs. Satan's abode of hell where the rich man's spirit was taken to by the angels.

Abraham said there was a great gulf fixed border there in Heaven between where he and Lazarus was, vs. hell where the rich man was. LITERAL.

But the Orthodox Jews TRY to say what Jesus was revealing there is just a FABRICATION, and not really how it is.

One of the reasons is because the Jews believe that when our flesh dies, our soul dies with our flesh, and has no continued existence until raised from the casket. But of course the Jews don't really pay attention to Old Testament Scripture like Eccl.12:5-7 that reveals our 'spirit' goes back to God when our flesh dies, and per Jesus in Matt.10:28 our soul is not killed with our flesh. Therefore, the Jews refuse to believe what Jesus was teaching about the abode of hell, the great gulf fixed border, and the side with Abraham, as being LITERAL.

What if what you perceive of soul, spirit and hell is nothing of what you say, or that of what the Jews believe?
Would you listen to it, or are you content to follow the majority of church-ianity, as well as the Jews?

Try this with the KJV:
1. Man never was given or received a "soul" from God, but rather "became a living soul", which is "nephesh" in the Hebrew, being that of "animal life", which also breathes "the breath of life", being that of oxygenated air, that ALL OUR billions of living cells, within our mortal flesh, crave after to stay alive.
If there be no oxygenated air, there will be no consciouness, and then no mortal life!!

2. The word spirit of our human lives is nothing more than our fleshly brain that produces "conscious" human thoughts, that we speak through the air, being that of words of languages, by our "natural man".

3. Hell is literally the grave, whereby every person who does not have the Spirit Christ is forever dead, never to rise into eternal life and immortality, and therefore is eternally gone (having perished), having no consciousness, or eternal existence of any kind.

Now, is my understanding in the literal, in verbatim, or is it by the Spirit of God?

I perceive that you won't be able to judge it.
In fact, you most likely will call it "foolishness".
Zech. 4
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying,
NOT by might, NOR by power,
but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[Earburner]

The story in Luke is "verbatim" (word for word what Luke was told that Jesus said). While many believe it to be a parable, and not "literal", I disagree. I believe that Jesus would have no need to fabricate a false narrative of the afterlife when He possessed accurate knowledge of the truth ... so the story is also LITERALLY true [although it employs Hebrew idioms that must be recognized as idioms and, therefore not literal].

ie. Abraham's bosom was a phrase that referred to "paradise" in the underworld [holding place of the dead] ... so he was not literally in someone's chest. It is comparable to our saying "it was raining cats and dogs" does not mean that animals literally fell from the sky, but it does mean that it was literally raining very hard. One does not say "it was raining cats and dogs" to describe a merely cloudy day.

It is apparent that in Gen. 3:22 man was not capable or allowed to have eternal life, or any thing to cause him to have eternal existence of any kind, beyond his mortal death.
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

In fact, ever since then, even the Holy Spirit (the Gift and vehicle of eternal life) was never permanently given to anyone under the OC.
Not until the death and resurrection of Jesus, did God allow for the Holy Spirit to take up permanent residence within us.
John 7
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[atpollard]

It is apparent that in Gen. 3:22 man was not capable or allowed to have eternal life, or any thing to cause him to have eternal existence of any kind, beyond his mortal death.
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

In fact, ever since then, even the Holy Spirit (the Gift and vehicle of eternal life) was never permanently given to anyone under the OC.
Not until the death and resurrection of Jesus, did God allow for the Holy Spirit to take up permanent residence within us.
John 7
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Non sequitur.
Everybody in the story of Lazarus and the rich man died.

 

[Earburner]

Non sequitur.
Everybody in the story of Lazarus and the rich man died.

Except one, which is Jesus' conclusion. Jesus alone, is the ONLY truth of that parable, being that of Himself.
Luke 26
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Only Jesus is the first born from the dead.
Col. 1
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

[Davy]

I think that the definitions of "LITERAL" and "VERBATIM" are far enough apart, but not antonyms of one another, that your observation is a non sequitur.

The issue for me is simple, metaphors are not LITERAL ... no matter how many times anyone insists to the contrary. The essence of Literal is that it means exactly what it says ... a gate is a gate; people are not gates. A metaphor involves non-literal symbolism ... a fire is judgement or a sheep is a person.

You still don't understand the idea of metaphor, analogy, allegory, parable, etc.

Even when Lord Jesus EXPLAINED His parables, you still REFUSE to see the LITERAL TRUTHS in them. Oh what a wretched soul one is that REJECTS Christ's LITERAL Truths He gave via parable.

 

[Earburner]

Non sequitur.
Everybody in the story of Lazarus and the rich man died.

First you have to understand that in that parable, the rich man, Lazarus and even Abraham, were not consciously alive speaking or seeing one another.

It is apparent that you do not agree with the factual reality of Gen. 3:22, that I expounded upon in post #307. If so, then the fictional views of "church-ianity" are powerful enough to lead one astray in their understanding of that parable.

 

[Earburner]

Getting back to the title of this thread, I shall continue to emphasize that the 144,000 are already redeemed from the earth, of which took place after Jesus' resurrection and/or on Pentecost. But, as it was said to them, they "must rest yet for a little season" Rev. 6:11. Therefore, though they are still waiting to be resurrected into immortality, they NOW have "the seal of God", and are asleep (at rest) in Jesus.

Those who were of faith in the "Promised one" to come, are of the 12 tribes of OC Israel who were under the altar of the OC. They are the symbolic 144,000 in Rev. Though they had died long ago, they were not forgotten by God. Malachi 3:16.
We can see them "under the altar" of the OC, crying to God for vengeance. Rev. 6:9-11.

Because Jesus did come and was glorified (John 7:39) , by their faith in waiting for the coming of Jesus in His first appearance in the flesh, they were found to be worthy to receive the Gift of God's Holy Spirit, symbolized as "white robes".
John 7
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
In other words, everyone of faith in Israel of the Messiah who was to come, being under the OC, were not allowed to have the permanency of the Gift of God's Holy Spirit until AFTER Jesus' resurrection into New Life.


All and anyone who are of Israel living, that comes to God through faith in Jesus, ever since after Pentecost, ARE OF "the Great Multitude".
Rom. 10
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

[Davy]

Getting back to the title of this thread, I shall continue to emphasize that the 144,000 are already redeemed from the earth, of which took place after Jesus' resurrection and/or on Pentecost. But, as it was said to them, they "must rest yet for a little season" Rev. 6:11. Therefore, though they are still waiting to be resurrected into immortality, they NOW have "the seal of God", and are asleep (at rest) in Jesus.

Those who were of faith in the "Promised one" to come, are of the 12 tribes of OC Israel who were under the altar of the OC. They are the symbolic 144,000 in Rev. Though they had died long ago, they were not forgotten by God. Malachi 3:16.

NOPE!

The 144,000 prophecy of Revelation 7 is LINKED TO PROPHETIC EVENTS ABOUT THE END OF THIS WORLD, not back in past history.

Rev 7:1-4
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
KJV

The above in red is about the subject of the destruction of this present world on the last day. The four angels are given power to bring that future destruction forth, but... are told to WAIT... until the servants of God have been SEALED in their foreheads.

The SEALING of Christ's servants didn't even begin until The Gospel Faith came and The Holy Spirit Comforter. That means IMPOSSIBLE for the SEALING of Rev.7 being about anytime PRIOR to beginning of Christ's Church with the preaching of The Gospel.

2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He Which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV


Eph 1:13
13 In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV


Eph 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV


Rev 9:3-5
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
KJV

Thus The New Testament time is the first time when being SEALED by The Holy Spirit is even mentioned. And those in Christ didn't receive the gift of The Holy Spirit until AFTER... Christ's death and resurrection.

So the idea that the 'souls under the Altar' of the 5th Seal are told to WAIT... until their fellowservants are killed as they were, is POINTING TO THE GREAT TRIBULATION time at the very end of this world, and thus that 144,000 of Rev.7, and the "great multitude" of Rev.7:9.

 

[Earburner]

NOPE!

The 144,000 prophecy of Revelation 7 is LINKED TO PROPHETIC EVENTS ABOUT THE END OF THIS WORLD, not back in past history.

Rev 7:1-4
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
KJV

The above in red is about the subject of the destruction of this present world on the last day. The four angels are given power to bring that future destruction forth, but... are told to WAIT... until the servants of God have been SEALED in their foreheads.

The SEALING of Christ's servants didn't even begin until The Gospel Faith came and The Holy Spirit Comforter. That means IMPOSSIBLE for the SEALING of Rev.7 being about anytime PRIOR to beginning of Christ's Church with the preaching of The Gospel.

2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He Which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV


Eph 1:13
13 In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV


Eph 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV


Rev 9:3-5
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
KJV

Thus The New Testament time is the first time when being SEALED by The Holy Spirit is even mentioned. And those in Christ didn't receive the gift of The Holy Spirit until AFTER... Christ's death and resurrection.

So the idea that the 'souls under the Altar' of the 5th Seal are told to WAIT... until their fellowservants are killed as they were, is POINTING TO THE GREAT TRIBULATION time at the very end of this world, and thus that 144,000 of Rev.7, and the "great multitude" of Rev.7:9.

So then, you are saying that God forgot about the Saints of faith in the Messiah to come, who lived under the OC, and therefore did not seal them by His Holy Spirit AFTER Christ was glorified. John 7:39.

You should be reminded that Jesus' first manifestation in the flesh, was then "in the end of the world".
Heb.9
[24] For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
[25] Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
[26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

However, ever since His Ascension, Jesus' second manifestation has been by His Spirit, through God's Grace of extended time for the present figurative 1000 years towards both Jew and Gentile, for there is no difference. Rom. 10:12.
(Even Jesus does not know the Day of His return, and is Himself waiting patiently).

As for His third manifestation, only God knows when He will send Jesus to return from Heaven, in all His Immortal Glory, in flaming fire, of which will be our bodily resurrection, and the destruction of ALL the wicked, even them in their graves (hell).
All of which shall be a simultaneous event.
Luke 17:28-30.
Edit:
The judgment of God for eternal death and for eternal life, was cast and secured by the death and resurrection of Jesus, as revealed in John 3:18.
1. Eternal Death through Adam, because of unbelief in Jesus.
2. Eternal life through Jesus, because of belief in Jesus.

With all of the OC saints of faith (the symbolic 144k), being already completed, and are now permanently sealed by God's Holy Spirit (Rev. 6:9-11), the only judgment remaining to discern, is who are they, that are of "the Great Multitude".
For all of those (both Jew and Gentile), who are coming to God through faith in Jesus, since Pentecost, God knows who HAS come, and all those who are STILL to come, under His Age of Grace through the NC.

BUT, as for those who didn't appear [come to] "the judgment seat of Christ"- John 3:18, while they were alive, and those future who won't come, upto the Day of Jesus' Glorious return, He shall say: "I never knew you", for whosoever hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. Rom. 8:8-9.
There will be NO second chances.

 

[Book of Revelation]

 

[Book of Revelation]

 

[Book of Revelation]

 

[Lizbeth]

You can go to ten different Churches and you may hear ten different interpretations of just who the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are. For some reason, those who don't actually know, because they don't heed what is written there in Rev.7 as being literal, come up with all sorts of wild concoctions for who it means. But stick to God's Word as written, and it becomes revealed in simplicity.

Rev 7:1-4
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

That above description is about the very end of this present world. That is what those above symbols point to, the destruction of 2 Peter 3:10 on the "day of the Lord", which is the LAST DAY of this present world. Those 4 angels represent the power to go forth on that last day.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

That is revealing a hold on those 4 angels letting the destruction on the last day loose. Before any of that, God has decreed that HIS servants be SEALED with HIS SEAL in their foreheads.


When you get to Revelation 9, you should then understand more about this specific 'sealing' of those with God's Seal...

Rev 9:3-4
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
KJV

Those locusts are allowed to sting ONLY those NOT SEALED with God's SEAL.

That means the 144,000 that are SEALED with GOD's Seal in their foreheads CANNOT be stung by those locusts.

What is that locust sting? Well, since they cannot hurt any green thing, nor kill, and later Rev.9 shows their power is in their MOUTHS, that means the 'sting' is pointing to WORDS OF DECEPTION out of their mouths. And the ONLY ones that will not be subject to that stinging are Christ's faithful elect, His faithful CHURCH.


Thus the 144,000 represent SEALED Israelites of 12,000 from each of those 12 tribes mentioned there in Revelation 7. They are SEALED with GOD's Seal in prep for the great tribulation. They are part of Christ's Church, prior to the "great tribulation", and through the "great tribulation", and all the way up to Christ's coming to gather His faithful Church on the last day of this world.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
KJV


Then at Revelation 7:9, John is shown a "great multitude" that came out of "great tribulation". That DOES NOT MEAN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE. John is shown those having gone through... the great tribulation also, like those 144,000 of the tribes of Israel. And that is why the "great multitude" is shown to John after the fact, their standing before the throne of God and Jesus AFTER He has returned, a reference to the Eternity. That means, that "great multitude" is SEALED with GOD'S SEAL also, in prep to go through the "great tribulation" and be overcomers in Christ Jesus.


Another Biblical FACT:
ONLY the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent the JEWS of the "house of Judah". The remaining Israelite tribes (10 of them), represent the "house of Israel". All 12 tribes of Israel were scattered by God because of their rebellion against Him. But it was to the "house of Israel" (10 tribes) that Jesus said He was specifically sent to, and they would believe The Gospel. Only a remnant of JEWS believed on Lord Jesus Christ. The largest majority of today's JEWS are still blinded away from The Gospel (Romans 11).

Therefore, those 144,000 are NOT all Jewish Israelites. The majority of them represent lost ten tribes which were scattered among the Gentiles first per 2 Kings 17. And descendants of those ten lost tribe Israelites make up a HUGE portion of Christ's Church today! Thus no man can rightly try to separate those 144,000 Israelites from Christ's Church. ONLY those Sealed with God's Seal in their foreheads represent Christ's Church in Revelation.

Amen i agree. I believe the 144,000 represent the bride of Christ....the heavenly city that comes down adorned as a bride. The number 12 features numerous times in describing the city/bride in Rev 21. 12 x 12 = 144 And those 144,000 are described as being virgins. Paul wrote that he desired to present the church (Jew and Gentile) as a chaste virgin to Christ.

 

[Earburner]

Amen i agree. I believe the 144,000 represent the bride of Christ....the heavenly city that comes down adorned as a bride. The number 12 features numerous times in describing the city/bride in Rev 21. 12 x 12 = 144 And those 144,000 are described as being virgins. Paul wrote that he desired to present the church (Jew and Gentile) as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Both Jew and Gentile, since Pentecost, through faith in Christ of His first appearance in the flesh, will be of the Great Multitude. The 144,000 were under the OC.
Please see my post #314, of which answers the OP's question: ,"Who really are the 144,000?"
.

 

[Davy]

Both Jew and Gentile, since Pentecost, through faith in Christ of His first appearance in the flesh, will be of the Great Multitude. The 144,000 were under the OC.
Please see my post #314, of which answers the OP's question: ,"Who really are the 144,000?"
.

The 144,000 represent sealed Israelites of the 'seed' of Israel. The tribes Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned because of prophecy about their falling away at the end. That is yet another pointer that those 144,00 do literally represent the seed of Israel, and not Gentiles.

The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 forward represents sealed Gentiles in Christ. BOTH groups represent Christ's Church.

The idea of the 'sealing' with God's seal is in prep to go through the future "great tribulation". That seal is the sealing of The Holy Spirit, which is another way we 'know', for certain, the 144,000 is about sealed Israelites in Christ's Church.

Why would the Israelites and Gentiles in Rev.7 be mentioned separately, one might ask? The Old Testament Books of God's prophets does that too, while maintaining Christ's Salvation for both together (see Isaiah 54 for one example).

God's Promises to the seed of Israel is not going to go away. Those in Christ simply become joint-heirs with the believers of the seed of Israel. Doesn't anyone recall that Apostle Paul applied the "commonwealth of Israel" label to believing Gentiles in Ephesians 2? and that Christ chose His 12 Apostles of the seed of Israel to sit upon 12 thrones in His future Kingdom over the 12 tribes of Israel? God's ordaining of election did not disappear with The New Covenant Jesus Christ.