Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

[HealthyShape]

We don’t know much about him so it’s hard to say for sure but he was part of the ruling elite families so most likely he was a fraud too.

I do not think this is the meaning of the word "fraud".

 

[HealthyShape]

The obvious problem of course is that other verses tell us that Christ will not come again before the last trumpet sounds at the end of this age.

There is no problem. Their age ended in 70 AD. It is not our ("this") age.

You invented a non-existent contradiction and then wrote a sea of text how you will solve it... with a needless spiritualization of the word "see".

 

[rwb]

There is no problem. Their age ended in 70 AD. It is not our ("this") age.

The problem with this statement is that it too forces contradiction into the Word of God!

I didn't mention "their" age! Because Scripture is clear that Christ shall not come until the "last day" of this age! If Christ had come again at the end of "their" age, there would not have been another last day to come. Why weren't all the believers raised up/resurrected if 70 AD was the end of the age when Christ came again which would have been the "last day"?

John 12:48 (KJV) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 6:39 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 (KJV) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[HealthyShape]

The problem with this statement is that it too forces contradiction into the Word of God!

I didn't mention "their" age! Because Scripture is clear that Christ shall not come until the "last day" of this age! If Christ had come again at the end of "their" age, there would not have been another last day to come. Why weren't all the believers raised up/resurrected if 70 AD was the end of the age when Christ came again which would have been the "last day"?

John 12:48 (KJV) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 6:39 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 (KJV) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

I think you simply do not have enough knowledge about full preterism and that is why you come up with these things.

These are not a problem in full preterism. You are just reading them as a futurist or whatever you are and that is why you see inconsistency.

The last day there does not mean the last day of the Universe or what you imagine it to be.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Why weren't all the believers raised up/resurrected if 70 AD was the end of the age when Christ came again which would have been the "last day"?

All the believers who had died up until then were bodily raised in the AD 70 resurrection, just as had been predicted for that first century generation. The "last days", "latter days", "last hour" etc. took place back then with the power of the holy people being shattered, just as Daniel 12:7 had prophesied.

 

[Truth7t7]

We must question our doctrine and if it forces contradictions, accept the fact that our doctrine is NOT biblical!

You mean like forcing a false reformed theology doctrine that the (Two Witnesses) in Rev Chap 11 below symbolically represents the old and new testament?

As scripture clearly teaches below, the (Two Witnesses) will be future literal prophets returned with physical bodies that die, and lay in a literal Jerusalem street where Jesus was crucified?

I Agree 100%, many people pushing the false reformed doctrine regarding the (Two Witnesses) must accept the fact that their doctrine and teaching isn't biblical

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[rwb]

I think you simply do not have enough knowledge about full preterism and that is why you come up with these things.

These are not a problem in full preterism. You are just reading them as a futurist or whatever you are and that is why you see inconsistency.

The last day there does not mean the last day of the Universe or what you imagine it to be.

It's a waste of time trying to show how inconsistent and contradictory your doctrine is! Your doctrine does not come from the Word of God; it is forced into the Word of God. Because you approach the Bible with a preconceived opinion and lack the honesty to admit your doctrine turns the Word of God into the weak words of man.

 

[rwb]

You mean like forcing a false reformed theology doctrine that the (Two Witnesses) in Rev Chap 11 below symbolically represents the old and new testament?

As scripture clearly teaches below, the (Two Witnesses) will be future literal prophets returned with physical bodies that die, and lay in a literal Jerusalem street where Jesus was crucified?

I Agree 100%, many people pushing the false reformed doctrine regarding the (Two Witnesses) must accept the fact that their doctrine and teaching isn't biblical

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

You hold to teachings from the Bible that we share the same understanding of, but what you have presented here is no more biblical than the doctrine of Full Preterits! I won't waste my time AGAIN showing you from the Word of God who/what the two witnesses represent.

 

[HealthyShape]

It's a waste of time trying to show how inconsistent and contradictory your doctrine is! Your doctrine does not come from the Word of God; it is forced into the Word of God. Because you approach the Bible with a preconceived opinion and lack the honesty to admit your doctrine turns the Word of God into the weak words of man.

Well, you would need to know my "doctrine", first. You know only some vague basics about my opinions, like "it happened in 70 AD", but it seems you do not know more. You do not even bother to ask.

You mix futurist ideas with preterist ideas and that is how you come to conclusion they are inconsistent.

 

[rwb]

Well, you would need to know my "doctrine", first. You know only some vague basics about my opinions, like "it happened in 70 AD", but it seems you do not know more. You do not even bother to ask.

You mix futurist ideas with preterist ideas and that is how you come to conclusion they are inconsistent.

I quite familiar with the unbiblical doctrine of Full Preterits!

It basically finds its beginnings through Jesuit writers in the 16th and 17the century. The doctrine became prominent as a counter-Reformation through the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar . In a nutshell Full Preterits view much, sometimes even all of the Bible as history, and view the Revelation to the seven Churches as the Revelation to mostly if not all to Israel of Old.

 

[HealthyShape]

I quite familiar with the unbiblical doctrine of Full Preterits!

It basically finds its beginnings through Jesuit writers in the 16th and 17the century. The doctrine became prominent as a counter-Reformation through the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar . In a nutshell Full Preterits view much, sometimes even all of the Bible as history, and view the Revelation to the seven Churches as the Revelation to mostly if not all to Israel of Old.

And reformation finds its beginnings in the 14th/15th century. So what?

And dispensationalism even in the 19th century.

I have never heard that the seven churches from the Revelation are "all to Israel of Old". I am not even sure what you mean.

 

[Truth7t7]

I won't waste my time AGAIN showing you from the Word of God who/what the two witnesses represent.

You already have stated that the (Two Witnesses) in Revelation Chapter 11 represent the witness as found in the old and new covenants or old and new testaments as seen below

You aren't going to take literal bodies that die and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem, and magically wave your wand and claim its symbolic of the old and new covenant church "Really"

Please Interpret
1.) "Dead Bodies"?
2.) "They Stood Upon Their Feet" ?
3.) "A Street In A City Where Jesus Was Crucified"?
4.) "A World Making Merry And Exchanging Gifts"?

Waiting?

Quote RWB: "The problem for me is that I don't believe you prove what you allege from the Word of God. The two anointed ones IMO are the two witnesses. They are two olive trees, symbolizing the Church of Old Covenant made manifest through the Law and Prophets that foretell of the Messiah who was to come in the power of the Father. The two candlesticks, symbolizing the Church of the New Covenant manifesting Christ Jesus our Lord through the Gospel sent out in the power of the Holy Spirit."

I Agree 100%, many people pushing the false reformed doctrine regarding the (Two Witnesses) must accept the fact that their doctrine and teaching isn't biblical

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[rwb]

And reformation finds its beginnings in the 14th/15th century. So what?

And dispensationalism even in the 19th century.

I have never heard that the seven churches from the Revelation are "all to Israel of Old". I am not even sure what you mean.

Significant difference! The purpose for the Reformation was not to bring a whole new doctrine as Full Preterism does. The Reformation sought to return to the doctrines of the Bible and correct the doctrines of man.

Full Preterits believe the Bible, especially the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written primarily to Israel, denying the Bible is written primarily as a guide to the Church of Old as well as the New Covenant Church.

 

[HealthyShape]

Significant difference! The purpose for the Reformation was not to bring a whole new doctrine as Full Preterism does. The Reformation sought to return to the doctrines of the Bible and correct the doctrines of man.

It's the same thing, preterism is just reading the New Testament as it was meant, without inventing nonsense.

Full Preterits believe the Bible, especially the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written primarily to Israel, denying the Bible is written primarily as a guide to the Church of Old as well as the New Covenant Church.

This is a confused claim. The Revelation was obviously written to the first century Christians, shortly before 70 AD. My guess is 68 or 69 AD.

You should read some classic work about full preterism, like The Parousia by Russell, so that you will have a bit more standard knowledge of it (if you want to debate it).

 

[rwb]

You already have stated that the (Two Witnesses) in Revelation Chapter 11 represent the witness as found in the old and new covenants

Quote RWB: "The problem for me is that I don't believe you prove what you allege from the Word of God. The two anointed ones IMO are the two witnesses. They are two olive trees, symbolizing the Church of Old Covenant made manifest through the Law and Prophets that foretell of the Messiah who was to come in the power of the Father. The two candlesticks, symbolizing the Church of the New Covenant manifesting Christ Jesus our Lord through the Gospel sent out in the power of the Holy Spirit."

There are 2 tribulation periods, the “first” is to the Jews

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24) This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many...

www.christianityboard.com

Christ speaks of only ONE "great tribulation" that shall come upon the Church as faithful saints proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God to all the nations of the earth. The warning of "great tribulation" was given first and foremost to the disciples with Christ, and to every new disciple that would come as they faithfully spread the gospel of the Kingdom of God through the power of the Holy Spirit.

The AOD spoken by Daniel came to the full when Christ was crucified. The utter destruction that came against Israel is the judgment from God He promised would come to them when they turned away from the true God and worshipped and served idols. Before He was crucified Christ pronounced this judgment against Jerusalem: "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

 

[Truth7t7]

Christ speaks of only ONE "great tribulation" that shall come upon the Church as faithful saints proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God to all the nations of the earth. The warning of "great tribulation" was given first and foremost to the disciples with Christ, and to every new disciple that would come as they faithfully spread the gospel of the Kingdom of God through the power of the Holy Spirit.

The AOD spoken by Daniel came to the full when Christ was crucified. The utter destruction that came against Israel is the judgment from God He promised would come to them when they turned away from the true God and worshipped and served idols. Before He was crucified Christ pronounced this judgment against Jerusalem: "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

You aren't going to take literal bodies that die and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem, and magically wave your wand and claim its symbolic of the old and new covenant church "Really"

Please Interpret The Words Below In Rev 11
1.) "Dead Bodies"?
2.) "They Stood Upon Their Feet"?
3.) "A Street In A City Where Jesus Was Crucified"?
4.) "A World Making Merry And Exchanging Gifts"?

Waiting?

I Agree 100%, many people pushing the false reformed doctrine regarding the (Two Witnesses) must accept the fact that their doctrine and teaching isn't biblical

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[rwb]

It's the same thing, preterism is just reading the New Testament as it was meant, without inventing nonsense.

No! Full Preterism seeks to read its preconceived doctrine into the Word of God. You do NOT read the NT as it was meant, rather you use the NT to try to force fit your preconceived assumptions and opinions.

You should read some classic work about full preterism, like The Parousia by Russell, so that you will have a bit more standard knowledge of it (if you want to debate it).

It's far more beneficial that I show those reading these forums how FP twist and manipulate the Word of God by proving FROM the Word of God just how distorted FP truly is!

 

[rwb]

You aren't going to take literal bodies that die and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem, and magically wave your wand and claim its symbolic of the old and new covenant church "Really"

Please Interpret The Words Below In Rev 11
1.) "Dead Bodies"?
2.) "They Stood Upon Their Feet"?
3.) "A Street In A City Where Jesus Was Crucified"?
4.) "A World Making Merry And Exchanging Gifts"?

Waiting?

I Agree 100%, many people pushing the false reformed doctrine regarding the (Two Witnesses) must accept the fact that their doctrine and teaching isn't biblical

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

If you wish to be taken seriously, Christ calls the two witnesses olive trees and lampstands prophesying a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. What biblical proof texts can you provide to prove they are literally two human beings?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Spirit of Christ is love, peace, joy, kindness, goodness, patience etc. The contrast is the spirit of antichrist.

What I was saying before is that a person can’t have the Spirit of God if they don’t have the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit of Christ is the evidence of true faith.

You clearly did not even bother looking at the context of the verse I used to show that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. He is also called the Spirit of God. Jesus is God. The Father, Son and Spirit are one and Jesus is God, so it's appropriate to say that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and also the Spirit of Christ.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Every mention of "the Spirit" in this passage is a reference to the Holy Spirit. And the Spirit is referenced six times in this passage. Read Romans 8:9 carefully. Paul refers to "the Spirit of Christ" in the exact same context as he refers to "the Spirit of God" in that verse. Are you going to try to tell me that "the Spirit of God" in that verse refers to "love, peace, joy, kindness, goodness, patience etc." in contrast to the spirit of antichrist? It's clearly a reference to the Holy Spirit. Paul is saying in that verse that you are in the Spirit (the Holy Spirit) if the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) dwells in you, but if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them, then he is not His. So, he clearly referred to the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ in the exact same context there, so he used those terms synonymously.

Notice in verse 10 he refers to Christ being in you. How can Christ be in you except for being in you spiritually? He is in us spiritually by way of the Holy Spirit who is "the Spirit of God" and "the Spirit of Christ".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no problem. Their age ended in 70 AD. It is not our ("this") age.

You invented a non-existent contradiction and then wrote a sea of text how you will solve it... with a needless spiritualization of the word "see".

There was no age that ended in 70 AD. Jesus talked about "this age" in contrast to the "age to come" in the sense of this age being temporal when people get married and they die with the age to come being the time when people will no longer get married or die (Luke 20:34-36). So, "this age" refers to this temporal age that we are still living in and not some imaginary age that ended in 70 AD.