Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?

[rwb]

It's You Who's Running From Answering The Questions Below

Please Interpret The Words Below In Rev 11
1.) "Dead Bodies"?
2.) "They Stood Upon Their Feet"?
3.) "A Street In A City Where Jesus Was Crucified"?
4.) "A World Making Merry And Exchanging Gifts"?

Since I've already told you how I have come to understand dead bodies standing upon their feet, it would be far more useful to know how you interpret these questions. Because you prove that you believe the two candlesticks and two olive are symbolic for two human individuals that shall come at a future time. But then you go from candlesticks and olive trees being symbolic to "dead bodies, standing upon their feet, a street and a city where Jesus was crucified, and the world making merry and exchanging gifts", appearing NOT to be symbolic but literal. Why would John use any symbolism and not simply write "I will give two of my faithful saints to prophesy 1260 days standing before the God of the earth"? If everything else in this chapter is literal, it makes zero sense to argue the two candlesticks and two olive trees are symbolic of two saints that shall come using symbolism rather than literal descriptions.

While I agree the two candlesticks and the two olive trees are symbolic, but I would also argue that all that John has written here will only make sense when you figure out what these things symbolically represent.

How do you literally interpret these verses, or will you switch from literal to symbolic to define these?

Revelation 11:5-6 (KJV) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

And what about the beast and the bottomless pit, symbolic or literal?

 

[Truth7t7]

Since I've already told you how I have come to understand dead bodies standing upon their feet, it would be far more useful to know how you interpret these questions.

You Haven't Explained Anything Regarding The Four Questions Below

I Have Already Explained They're "Future Literal" Please Answer The Simple Four Questions Below With Your Interpretation, Waiting?

Please Interpret The Words Below In Rev 11
1.) "Their Dead Bodies"?
2.) "They Stood Upon Their Feet"?
3.) "A Street In A City Where Jesus Was Crucified"?
4.) "A World Making Merry And Exchanging Gifts"?

I Agree 100%, many people pushing the false reformed doctrine regarding the (Two Witnesses) must accept the fact that their doctrine and teaching isn't biblical

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[rwb]

You Haven't Explained Anyting Regarding The Four Questions Below, Waiting?

Please Interpret The Words Below In Rev 11
1.) "Their Dead Bodies"?
2.) "They Stood Upon Their Feet"?
3.) "A Street In A City Where Jesus Was Crucified"?
4.) "A World Making Merry And Exchanging Gifts"?

Waiting?

I Agree 100%, many people pushing the false reformed doctrine regarding the (Two Witnesses) must accept the fact that their doctrine and teaching isn't biblical

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

I have no desire to go into detail for you regarding my understanding of Rev 11, I feel it would be like speaking to the wall. I will simply say, just as I understand two lampstands and two olive trees symbolically pertain to spiritual realities, so too the rest of the chapter can only be correctly discerned by learning from the Bible what the symbology pertains to as the witnesses prophesy of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as they preach the gospel of salvation unto all the nations of the earth.

If you want further answers from me regarding this topic, go back and re-read what I've already said.

 

[Truth7t7]

I will simply say, just as I understand two lampstands and two olive trees symbolically pertain to spiritual realities, so too the rest of the chapter can only be correctly discerned by learning from the Bible what the symbology pertains to as the witnesses prophesy of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as they preach the gospel of salvation unto all the nations of the earth.

If you want further answers from me regarding this topic, go back and re-read what I've already said.

A Big Non-Response "Why"?

Because you can't wave your magic wand in "Symbolism" on the four questions below, your reformed preterist theology has "Failed"

Conclusion: I Agree 100%, many people pushing the false reformed doctrine regarding the (Two Witnesses) must accept the fact that their "Symbolic" doctrine and teaching isn't biblical, the four questions below are "Future Literal" it's that simple

Future: Literal Dead Bodies, Literal Standing On Feet, A Literal Street In Jerusalem, A Literal World Making Merry Exchanging Gifts

Jesus Is The Lord

Please Interpret The Words Below In Rev 11
1.) "Their Dead Bodies"?
2.) "They Stood Upon Their Feet"?
3.) "A Street In A City Where Jesus Was Crucified"?
4.) "A World Making Merry And Exchanging Gifts"?

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[HealthyShape]

You are twisting His words to fit your doctrine. Jesus did not come in 70 AD and there was no end to any age at that time. I know preterists like you refer to the age that you think ended in 70 AD as the old covenant age, but the old covenant was made obsolete by the death of Christ, not what happened in 70 AD.

Oh, a poor response from you. Trying to read the text in its 1st century context is not twisting His words. That is also why you were unable to demonstrate any twisting.

Yes, the Old covenant was made obsolete by the death and the resurrection of Christ. But the old "Jewish" age ended with the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem. It was the last judgement of the nation and the final period behind it, fulfilling all the prophecies. Jesus foretold it many times and in many ways:

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 'Do you see all these things?' he asked. 'Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.'
"As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. 'Tell us,' they said, 'when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?'
Mt 24:1-3 (NIV)

The destruction of the temple, the coming of the Lord and the end of the age. Three related things. Read it without any modern preconceived bias and you will see it too.

If you subconsciously (because of the bias) try to dissect these three things into unrelated periods separated by thousands of years, I recommend to read the text also in Luke.

 

[rwb]

A Big Non-Response "Why"?

Because you can't wave your magic wand in "Symbolism" on the four questions below, your reformed preterist theology has "Failed"

You loathe symbolism except when YOU need to make the candlesticks and olive trees SYMBOLIZE two men.

 

[Truth7t7]

You loathe symbolism except when YOU need to make the candlesticks and olive trees SYMBOLIZE two men.

The Two Anointed Ones, The (Two Witnesses) Literal Prophets Returned

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

 

[HealthyShape]

Even though it is hard to find out who were the two witnesses in Jerusalem before it was destroyed, I would also incline to that they were two real people.

Somebody important in or for the first century Jerusalem church, the language in the book of Revelation is clear about that.

 

[IndianaRob]

The Two Anointed Ones, The (Two Witnesses) Literal Prophets Returned

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

In Zechariah 4, what purpose did the two olive trees serve in producing the oil for the candlestick?

 

[Truth7t7]

In Zechariah 4, what purpose did the two olive trees serve in producing the oil for the candlestick?

What do you believe the golden oil is that's emptied out of the (Two Annointed Ones)?

Zechariah 4:12KJV
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

 

[IndianaRob]

What do you believe the golden oil is that's emptied out of the (Two Annointed Ones)?

Zechariah 4:12KJV
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

In the analogy the golden oil is olive oil that the lamp needs to produce light.

In the real world application the lamp is the Bible and the oil is the Holy Spirit.

What I’m wanting to discuss is what do the trees represent. I don’t know, I’m hoping to maybe get better understanding through discussion.

 

[rwb]

The Two Anointed Ones, The (Two Witnesses) Literal Prophets Returned

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Prove what you allege! Name these two anointed prophets that will return from the dead!

 

[rwb]

Even though it is hard to find out who were the two witnesses in Jerusalem before it was destroyed, I would also incline to that they were two real people.

Somebody important in or for the first century Jerusalem church, the language in the book of Revelation is clear about that.

This sounds like you're guessing! If the book of Revelation so clearly says these two will be two "real people" returned from the dead, please provide chapter and verse so we can all know who these risen prophets shall be!

 

[HealthyShape]

This sounds like you're guessing! If the book of Revelation so clearly says these two will be two "real people" returned from the dead, please provide chapter and verse so we can all know who these risen prophets shall be!

No "shall be", but "were".

As I said, the language is clear it is about real people, but I do not know which ones. Somebody important in the first century church or for the first century church. Maybe two apostles, maybe Moses and Elijah, hard to know. Most people did not survive the great tribulation in Jerusalem to tell the details.

 

[rwb]

In the analogy the golden oil is olive oil that the lamp needs to produce light.

In the real world application the lamp is the Bible and the oil is the Holy Spirit.

What I’m wanting to discuss is what do the trees represent. I don’t know, I’m hoping to maybe get better understanding through discussion.

The lamp is indeed the WORD of God! The oil believers are all anointed with is the Holy Spirit of God. With which every true believer is chosen to be a witness for Christ, proclaiming unto all the earth the gospel of the Kingdom of God. That Kingdom is only made known and spiritually entered to those who hear and believe through the power of the Spirit of God.

John 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 2:20 (KJV) But ye have an unction [anointing] from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1 John 2:27 (KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 14:26 (KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 (KJV) But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Both the Law of Old and the Prophets of Old guides mankind to Christ through the message of the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. This is why I believe the two anointed ones are the Covenant Church of Old; the Law & Prophets, and the Covenant Church anew; the Gospel proclaimed through the Holy Spirit.

The Olive Tree is used in Scripture to symbolize Israel. And John tells us in Rev 1 the candlesticks symbolize the seven churches, which seven represents the whole.

Jeremiah 11:16-17 (KJV) The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

Romans 11:17 (KJV) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

 

[rwb]

No "shall be", but "were".

As I said, the language is clear it is about real people, but I do not know which ones. Somebody important in the first century church or for the first century church. Maybe two apostles, maybe Moses and Elijah, hard to know. Most people did not survive the great tribulation in Jerusalem to tell the details.

Will these two resurrected witnesses be immortal & incorruptible? Because Scripture indicates that NONE shall be bodily resurrected until and hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer. Scripture also tells us that man dies once and after that the judgment.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[HealthyShape]

Will these two resurrected witnesses be immortal & incorruptible? Because Scripture indicates that NONE shall be bodily resurrected until and hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer. Scripture also tells us that man dies once and after that the judgment.

Not "will", but "were" - in the first century.

The book of Revelation indicates they were killed in Jerusalem, resurrected and taken to heaven:

But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. And the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched them.
Rev 11:11-12

 

[rwb]

Not "will", but "were" - in the first century.

The book of Revelation indicates they were killed in Jerusalem, resurrected and taken to heaven:

But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. And the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched them.
Rev 11:11-12

I'm compelled to point out the many problems we find with this very imaginative interpretation. If this is history, why is there no record in Scripture of their corpses laying in the street because the people who witnessed this would not allow their bodies to be buried? Where do we read of this merry making over their deaths when people sent gifts to one another? And where is the record of their enemies witnessing them ascend into heaven? Finally where is it written in the same hour of their ascension there was a great earthquake that caused the tenth part of the (literal) city falling while the earthquake killed seven thousand? When I ask for proof, I mean proof from the Word of God, not from an unbelieving historian or any other outside source!

Revelation 11:8-13 (KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[HealthyShape]

I'm compelled to point out the many problems we find with this very imaginative interpretation. If this is history, why is there no record in Scripture of their corpses laying in the street because the people who witnessed this would not allow their bodies to be buried? Where do we read of this merry making over their deaths when people sent gifts to one another? And where is the record of their enemies witnessing them ascend into heaven? Finally where is it written in the same hour of their ascension there was a great earthquake that caused the tenth part of the (literal) city falling while the earthquake killed seven thousand? When I ask for proof, I mean proof from the Word of God, not from an unbelieving historian or any other outside source!

The New Testament was written before 70 AD. Therefore, it does not record the destruction of Jerusalem and all the events around it. Only prophetically, like in the book of Revelation or in gospels.

 

[rwb]

The New Testament was written before 70 AD. Therefore, it does not record the destruction of Jerusalem and all the events around it. Only prophetically, like in the book of Revelation or in gospels.

But you're arguing the prophesy of the two witnesses is history. Do you now believe this prophesy and all surrounding it shall be literally/physically fulfilled in the future?