Can any of you link or share a good argument against FULL preterism?
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There is not consensus by Bible scholars to prove even Rev was complete before 70 AD. I agree with the opinion of the late dating for the completion of The Revelation. You argue the two witnesses and all surrounding them recorded by John in the Revelation is history, but there is no biblical proof even from John that this prophesy has already been literally fulfilled.
John the apostle had the distinguished role of collecting all the books extant and completing the canonization of the Bible somewhere between 96 to 99 A.D.
Canonizing the Bible
The New Testament was written by, or its writing was supervised by, the chosen disciples of Jesus Christ. John, who near the end of the first century A.D. was the last living apostle, was uniquely qualified to canonize the Scriptures as he was of the Aaronic (Levitical priest) blood line. We can therefore have full faith and confidence that the original Greek text, as preserved in the Byzantine text, is the very Word of God.The below chart lists, in chronological order, the date each New Testament book was written and who wrote it. All dates are A.D.
Timeline of
New Testament Books
35 A.D.Gospel of Matthew
Matthew
40 to 41
Book of James
James, half brother of Jesus
42
Gospel of Mark by Mark
Gospel of John by John *
50
1Thessalonians
Apostle Paul
51
2Thessalonians
Apostle Paul
53
Galatians
Apostle Paul
56
1Corinthians
Apostle Paul
57
2Corinthians, Romans
Apostle Paul
58 - 60
Book of Acts **
Luke
59
Gospel of Luke
Luke
61 to 63
Books of Ephesians, Philippians,
Colossians, Philemon and Hebrews
Apostle Paul
63
Book of Acts **
Luke
1Timothy, Titus
Apostle Paul
63 to 64
1John, 2John, 3John
Apostle John
64 to 65
1Peter
Apostle Peter
65 to 66
2Peter
Apostle Peter
66 to 67
Book of Jude
Jude, half brother of Jesus
67
2Timothy
Apostle Paul
95 to 96
Book of Revelation
Apostle John
| Notes * Evidence suggests the main body of John's gospel was written in 42 A.D. The prologue and epilogue, however, and the finalizing of the text likely took place at or shortly after 95 A.D. ** Luke began writing the Book of Acts when Paul was in a Caesarea prison from summer 58 to early autumn 60 A.D. He finished the book just before Paul was released from his first imprisonment in 63 A.D. |
References
Holy Bible, a Faithful Version
Redating the New Testament by Robinson
I don't find that to be true! Your doctrine is dependent upon the early completion for the book. Otherwise, there would be no consideration for John having finished the Revelation before 70 AD.
Truth7t7
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Prove That Seen Below Isn't "Future Literal"
Future: Literal Dead Bodies, Literal Standing On Feet, A Literal Street In Jerusalem, A Literal World Making Merry Exchanging Gifts
Jesus Is The Lord
Please Interpret The Words Below In Rev 11
1.) "Their Dead Bodies"?
2.) "They Stood Upon Their Feet"?
3.) "A Street In A City Where Jesus Was Crucified"?
4.) "A World Making Merry And Exchanging Gifts"?
Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Again deflecting! You're the one arguing the prophesy will be literally fulfilled in the future. The burden is on you, for he who alleges must prove.
The first source saying that John wrote it in 90 AD are medieval manuscripts of Irenaeus.
But the text of the book of Revelation itself indicates it was written before the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem (it talks about measuring the temple, it talks about events in Jerusalem...).
It also says that five kings were in the past and the 6th currently rules and the 7th will rule for just a short time, which also places it during the reign of the Roman emperor Galba, 68-69 AD.
It also says that the things in the book are to happen soon. Which fits 68-69 much more than 90 AD. What happened soon after 90 AD with the temple and in Jerusalem? There is nothing in history.
So, one can either go with the internal textual evidence and with how it fits history or with late external tradition which fits nothing.
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But you are making an assumption! Assuming the temple being measured is the Old Covenant temple in Jerusalem. Since the advent of Christ's cross and resurrection we find that not only is Christ the True Temple, we also who are found to be in Him through His Spirit are also.
John 2:19-21 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.
1 Corinthians 3:16 (KJV) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 6:19 (KJV) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Here again you're assuming! That which was and is soon coming is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as it is being built as the Church proclaims the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the earth. That is the Kingdom of God that Christ came to earth with.
I also assume you are not a bot. Assuming is the nature of human communication.The author says that the things in the book will happen soon and are related to the coming of the Lord.
You may try to spiritualize it (and to some degree you are right, the kingdom of God is spiritual), but it still stands that it was to come soon. Nothing came soon after 90 AD.
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Oh no! The end of the world!!!!!! A human made some assumption!
But your assumption that it is NOT about the temple is not assumption at all!!! Of course!!!!
Childish.
Better try to explain why there is no mention of the greatest catastrophe in the history of Jerusalem, of Judaism and of Judea, in the book.
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That's another of your doctrine's assumptions! I don't believe the Scriptures says that what was at hand/near speaks about the second coming of the Lord. That which was near and even at hand is the gospel of the spiritual Kingdom of God that all mankind might know and enter when they hear, believe and are born again of the Spirit. Jesus says He is coming quickly, which is defined; shortly, i.e. without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily:—lightly, quickly. This is what we find when we read how man need only hear the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit and whosoever hears according to grace through faith, and believes the gospel is at that very moment born again, both knowing and entering the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven.
The usage of 'soon' throughout the NT implies immediacy; instantly:—forthwith, immediately, presently, straightway.
You're assuming that which was at hand is the coming of Christ. But when John penned the Revelation the spiritual Kingdom of God was at hand to whosoever hears and believe. In ages of Old the only people who heard of the way into the Kingdom of God through the Law and Prophets of Old was the nation of Israel. But now Christ writes to the Church: Revelation 3:20 (KJV) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. The ability for man to hear Him knock is according to grace through faith, having our ears opened by the power of God, and turning to Him in repentance believing.
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You should really learn a better beginning of your posts.
"That's another of your doctrine's assumptions!"
No way, Sherlock! You needed AI or a dictionary to tell you this?"God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon."
Rev 22:6
"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near."
Rev 22:10
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Stop dodging my questions and answer:
1. What happened soon after 90 AD that corresponds to the content of the book of Revelation?
2. Why does the book not mention the greatest catastrophe in the history of Jerusalem, Judaism and Judea?
3. Who were the 7 kings in Rev 17, if it was written after 90 AD?
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I'm not assuming but basing my understanding on what I read FROM the Word of God! Not as Preterits who base their understanding on what they read INTO the Word of God.
The way that Christ comes to man now is through His Spirit. That's why Christ says He is both near and coming quickly (without notice) to whosoever is born again through His Spirit in them.
John 14:16-18 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Matthew 28:20 (KJV) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
I know Preterits interpret "end of the world" as the end of the Old Covenant age. That's just one more example of how you must read your doctrine INTO the Word of God rather than learn FROM the Word of God.
I don't need AI to understand, but dictionaries and concordances are most helpful to show the various words found in the Hebrew and Greek languages which don't always support a translator's biases.
Revelation 22:6 (KJV) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Revelation 22:7 (KJV) Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Meaning without delay, speedily, in haste! After sending His Spirit to be in faithful saints at Pentecost, now whosoever hears the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed might 'quickly, suddenly, without notice or delay, in haste', the Spirit will penetrate the hearts of all who hear according to grace through faith, and man will turn to God in repentance, and spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God in heaven through Christ in them.
Revelation 22:10-11 (KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
The time that is then and now at hand is the preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom of God that shall be unto all the nations of the earth. John is showing us that the vision and prophesy is no longer sealed as it was in the days of Daniel (Dan 9:24). The time had come for the Revelation of Jesus Christ through His gospel of the Kingdom of God to be proclaimed unto all the earth. The gospel will prove man shall be declared justified before God or be unjust still upon hearing the gospel of the Kingdom of God preached.
Revelation 10:8-11 (KJV) And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
It was through the writing of The Revelation of Jesus Christ by John that the faithful Church is given Her marching orders. To testify unto every man that whosoever hears the words of the prophecy shall be eternally saved.
Revelation 22:16-21 (KJV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
The fact the book of Revelation does NOT mention the destruction of the Old temple gives more proof the temple to be measured was not the temple of Old, but the Temple that is Christ and His body of believers.
Who indeed are the seven kings and ten horns that are ten kings of the earth who commit fornication with "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH"? I know the popular opinion is to make these kings fit literal kings of past ages. But what do we do with "which have received no kingdom as yet, but receive power as kings one hour with the beast"???
Revelation 17:2 (KJV) With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Revelation 17:10-18 (KJV) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Yep.
History defeats the historical position
Preterism does not even begin to fit.
It is comical watching them come up with the flying scorpions, hailstones of fire, the AC, the mark, innumerable number of Christians murdered for not receiving the mark, the mark in the forehead, no buying selling for those with no mark, ....
All that preterism is immediately off the table.
Pure rabbit trail.
Interestingly, you have been unable to demonstrate any my "reading into", while what you say about the future or what you frequently post is not found in the biblical text at all.
Do not try to hide your inability to answer the questions directly in the sea of text. The sea of text that looks like just your strange attempt to create some free interpretations without any real connection to the biblical verses you quoted.
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The distance that separates our doctrinal points of view are not reconcilable! It's time to shake off the dust and move on!
Matthew 10:14 (KJV) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Bladerunner
Active Member
oops, you said "the flying scorpions, hailstones of fire, the AC, the mark, innumerable number of Christians murdered for not receiving the mark, the mark in the forehead, no buying selling for those with no mark, ...."
These are real words spoken in Revelation by God. They will happen and each is in-twined with a specific time of Daniel's 70th week. But I am glad you have put both Preterism and partial preterism off the table. Still I will try to answer other questions you might have.
In response to the title, I think I would just say "The Bible does not end with a conclusion, but a picture of what happens to judgment - it is open ended; for preterism to be true, you would have to know from the Bible that its prophecy was conclusive in a specific way - that conclusion isn't there".
Jesus said "everyone is tested with fire" if you think that is in the past, you had better be sure!
Jesus said "everyone is tested with fire" if you think that is in the past, you had better be sure!
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