Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Davidpt]

I would also add that the DOTL is the third woe in Rev11

What is the 3rd woe? The 7th trumpet, correct? Except some interpreters disagree that the 7th trumpet is after great tribulation. Some interpreters have the 7th trumpet meaning the middle of Daniel's 70th week. Which would mean per that view, the 7th trumpet leads to the beginning of great tribulation, therefore, is not meaning at the end of great tribulation. So, even if one is using the 7th trumpet to debunk their view, in their mind it debunks zero in regards to their view, it supports their view. It means to them that the DOTL indeed begins with great tribulation, exactly what they are arguing per 1 Thessalonians 5:3.

One avoids a misunderstanding like this in regards to the 7th trumpet if one has the 70th week as having already been fulfilled, or if one has only the 2nd half still unfulfilled. My view being the latter. If only the 2nd half of the 70th week is relevant in the future, but not the first half as well, as in the first half was fulfilled 2000 years ago and involved this at the time---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease---this would mean that the 7th trumpet can't be meaning the middle of the 70th week, but has to be meaning at the end of the 70th week.

 

[shepherdsword]

What is the 3rd woe? The 7th trumpet, correct? Except some interpreters disagree that the 7th trumpet is after great tribulation. Some interpreters have the 7th trumpet meaning the middle of Daniel's 70th week. Which would mean per that view, the 7th trumpet leads to the beginning of great tribulation, therefore, is not meaning at the end of great tribulation. So, even if one is using the 7th trumpet to debunk their view, in their mind it debunks zero in regards to their view, it supports their view. It means to them that the DOTL indeed begins with great tribulation, exactly what they are arguing per 1 Thessalonians 5:3.

One avoids a misunderstanding like this in regards to the 7th trumpet if one has the 70th week as having already been fulfilled, or if one has only the 2nd half still unfulfilled. My view being the latter. If only the 2nd half of the 70th week is relevant in the future, but not the first half as well, as in the first half was fulfilled 2000 years ago and involved this at the time---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease---this would mean that the 7th trumpet can't be meaning the middle of the 70th week, but has to be meaning at the end of the 70th week.

I think the 7th Trumpet is at the end of the 70th week and the vial judgements that seem to follow after are just repetitions of the 7 Trumpets. The key for this was given back in Genesis when Joseph interpreted the cows and wheat sheaves as referring to a single event. The 7 years of Plenty and the 7 years of Famine.

 

[Truth7t7]

Those like Truth7t7 that are on men's doctrines refuse to recognize the Zechariah 14 prophecy of events to happen on that "day of the Lord" and thereafter, which also shows nations on earth that exist today, will continue... to exist on earth after Christ has returned.

Zechariah Chapter 14 Represents The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, "After" The Day Of The Lord Takes Place

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[grafted branch]

I have noted in the past both Pretribbers and Preterists applying 1 Thessalonians 5:3, for example, to that of the beginning of great tribulation. If Preterists are applying 1 Thessalonians 5:3 to that of the first century involving 70 AD, this means they are obviously applying great tribulation during the DOTL, the fact 1 Thessalonians 5:3 would also be involving Matthew 24:15-21, per their view of things.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:2 the DOTL comes as a thief. In Matthew 24:29, immediately after the tribulation the sun is darkened …

Here’s the problem, how can the DOTL come as a thief to the unbelievers? Are they so ignorant that they are unable to realize the tribulation that’s happening to them lines up with Bible verses about the tribulation? I don’t think so. A possible explanation is that the DOTL comes after the tribulation that the believers experience while the tribulation that the unbelievers experience starts with the DOTL.

In Revelation 6:9-11 we have the fifth seal and we are told there are fellow servants and brethren that still have to be killed before their blood is avenged. Here the believers are going to experience tribulation and be killed before the unbelievers experience the tribulation for shedding their blood.

In Revelation 6:12-17, at the sixth seal, we see the wrath for the righteous blood shed being administered. This is the same event recorded in Revelation 19:17-21. In Revelation 19:14 it is those in the white robes that accompany Christ on the white horse, the same people who got white robes in Revelation 6:11. Those in the white robes aren’t experiencing tribulation at the sixth seal, their tribulation is over, the fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were gets fulfilled before the sixth seal wrath.

This all agrees with the view that believers experience tribulation prior to the DOTL while unbelievers experience tribulation after that, or during the DOTL.

 

[Davidpt]

Here’s the problem, how can the DOTL come as a thief to the unbelievers? Are they so ignorant that they are unable to realize the tribulation that’s happening to them lines up with Bible verses about the tribulation? I don’t think so. A possible explanation is that the DOTL comes after the tribulation that the believers experience while the tribulation that the unbelievers experience starts with the DOTL.

What tribulation do you see happening to unbelievers per Matthew 24 prior to the fulfillment of verse 29? The only tribulation mentioned just prior to that verse is what's recorded in verses 15-26. Some take those verses to be involving the first century and 70 AD. I disagree. I take those verses to be involving great tribulation upon the church during the final days of this age, that it is involving the 42 month reign of the beast. The beast is not hunting down, persecuting, nor in some cases killing anyone worshiping it. It is doing those things to the ones refusing to worship it.

Some might argue, what about this recorded in Luke 21? Isn't that describing great tribulation?

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken .

No it isn't because look where Matthew 24:29 places those events--immediately after the trib of those days.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

What I have underlined in both accounts is involving the DOTL after great tribulation.

It's about perspective then. Not everyone experiences great tribulation in the same manner, the same way that not everyone experiences the DOTL after great tribulation, thus the fierce wrath of God, in the same manner. For example, the saved vs the lost. The former is unaffected by the wrath of God after great tribulation during the DOTL, the latter isn't.

Equally, those worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign is unaffected by the wrath of satan during it's 42 month reign, while those refusing to worship it are affected by the wrath of satan via the beast and false prophet during it's 42 month reign Once again, we have to consider perspective since perspective is relevant in this case.

To further prove my point that perspective is relevant. Let's asume Matthew 24:15-26 is involving the first century leading up to 70 AD, though I disagree it is. Yet that is beside the point. Per this scenario this would involve the wrath of God against unbelieving Jews. The Christians that excaped before 70 AD ocurred, did the wrath of God affect them the same way it affected unbelieving Jews that did not escape before 70 AD? No. Therefore, just like I have been saying all along. It is about perspective, that sometimes some things are not affecting everyone else in the same manner.

 

[grafted branch]

What tribulation do you see happening to unbelievers per Matthew 24 prior to the fulfillment of verse 29? The only tribulation mentioned just prior to that verse is what's recorded in verses 15-26. Some take those verses to be involving the first century and 70 AD. I disagree. I take those verses to be involving great tribulation upon the church during the final days of this age, that it is involving the 42 month reign of the beast. The beast is not hunting down, persecuting, nor in some cases killing anyone worshiping it. It is doing those things to the ones refusing to worship it.

Some might argue, what about this recorded in Luke 21? Isn't that describing great tribulation?

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken .

No it isn't because look where Matthew 24:29 places those events--immediately after the trib of those days.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

What I have underlined in both accounts is involving the DOTL after great tribulation.

It's about perspective then. Not everyone experiences great tribulation in the same manner, the same way that not everyone experiences the DOTL after great tribulation, thus the fierce wrath of God, in the same manner. For example, the saved vs the lost. The former is unaffected by the wrath of God after great tribulation during the DOTL, the latter isn't.

Equally, those worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign is unaffected by the wrath of satan during it's 42 month reign, while those refusing to worship it are affected by the wrath of satan via the beast and false prophet during it's 42 month reign Once again, we have to consider perspective since perspective is relevant in this case.

To further prove my point that perspective is relevant. Let's asume Matthew 24:15-26 is involving the first century leading up to 70 AD, though I disagree it is. Yet that is beside the point. Per this scenario this would involve the wrath of God against unbelieving Jews. The Christians that excaped before 70 AD ocurred, did the wrath of God affect them the same way it affected unbelieving Jews that did not escape before 70 AD? No. Therefore, just like I have been saying all along. It is about perspective, that sometimes some things are not affecting everyone else in the same manner.

My view of Matthew 24:15-26 is different than most others. I take the days being shortened as meaning the indicator of when to flee changed from the AOD to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. When you shorten a set number of days you either end them sooner or start them later than originally anticipated. I think the days were started later, hence the indicator of when to flee changed.

Matthew 24:15-26 shows false Christs and prophets trying to deceive the elect, which is part of the tribulation that’s happening to the believers but the fifth seal says there would be physical death also happening during that tribulation.

 

[Davidpt]

My view of Matthew 24:15-26 is different than most others. I take the days being shortened as meaning the indicator of when to flee changed from the AOD to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. When you shorten a set number of days you either end them sooner or start them later than originally anticipated. I think the days were started later, hence the indicator of when to flee changed.

Matthew 24:15-26 shows false Christs and prophets trying to deceive the elect, which is part of the tribulation that’s happening to the believers but the fifth seal says there would be physical death also happening during that tribulation.

Doesn't the text tell us why the days are shortened?

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Who should we take the elect to mean in this context? It is for the elect's sake these days are shortened. If meaning the church, and then meaning the first century leading up to 70 AD, I then see it making zero sense that these days were shortened for the elect's sake if Christians escaped these things at the time. Which they apparently did.

If the elect is meaning unbelieving Jews per this context, I equally see it making zero sense that verse 31 is involving the gathering together of His unbelieving Jews from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Surely, the elect can't be meaning unbelieving Jews in verse 22 but meaning saved saints in verse 31. That would be confusing, nothing consistent about it. Therefore, whoever the elect is meaning in verse 31, has to be the same ones the elect is meaning in verse 22.

Proof after proof after proof that the first century leading up to 70 AD can't fit verses 15-26. But even so, many still insist the first century and 70 AD is meant, regardless that it renders this in verse 22 nonsensical if true---for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[grafted branch]

Doesn't the text tell us why the days are shortened?

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Who should we take the elect to mean in this context? It is for the elect's sake these days are shortened. If meaning the church, and then meaning the first century leading up to 70 AD, I then see it making zero sense that these days were shortened for the elect's sake if Christians escaped these things at the time. Which they apparently did.

If the elect is meaning unbelieving Jews per this context, I equally see it making zero sense that verse 31 is involving the gathering together of His unbelieving Jews from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Surely, the elect can't be meaning unbelieving Jews in verse 22 but meaning saved saints in verse 31. That would be confusing, nothing consistent about it. Therefore, whoever the elect is meaning in verse 31, has to be the same ones the elect is meaning in verse 22.

Proof after proof after proof that the first century leading up to 70 AD can't fit verses 15-26. But even so, many still insist the first century and 70 AD is meant, regardless that it renders this in verse 22 nonsensical if true---for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I see the days that were shortened as the days without hope. After Israel rejected going into the promised land they had no hope for forty years as they wandered in the wilderness. After the cross they did have hope, even if they initially rejected Jesus and continued the sacrifices. That condition lasted until 70AD, when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.

The days being shortened allowed the Jews the time to accept the new covenant. They straightaway didn’t desire the new covenant, no flesh would’ve been saved if the days weren’t shortened.

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightaway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

 

[Wick Stick]

Historically, technically, our planet was not formed from waters. The waters in Genesis are a mythological concept, not science.

History - which starts in the 7th century BC - doesn't record the formation of planet earth. That's all scientific hypothoses.

But yes, I do agree that the 'waters' of Genesis 1 are mythological. The leading idea in the story is chaos vs. order, rather than any telling of history.

Similarly, the Flood of Noah was not technically over the whole planet, but happened in Mesopotamia.

There was certainly a flood in Mesopotamia... more than one. But it's not certain that any such flood is linked to the story of Noah. It's actually redoubtable.

The peoples of ancient India and Pakistan have the same story of Noah. Their ancestors never lived in Mesopotamia, but rather in the Caucusus, near Mt. Ararat.

 

[jeffweeder]

Doesn't the text tell us why the days are shortened?

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Sounds like unless God intervenes, we will destroy ourselves.
Little do people realize that God will bring it to end on His own terms which is his righteous judgment through the appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus the Messiah.

 

[HealthyShape]

I have noted in the past both Pretribbers and Preterists applying 1 Thessalonians 5:3, for example, to that of the beginning of great tribulation. If Preterists are applying 1 Thessalonians 5:3 to that of the first century involving 70 AD, this means they are obviously applying great tribulation during the DOTL, the fact 1 Thessalonians 5:3 would also be involving Matthew 24:15-21, per their view of things.

Therefore, the OP basically kills 2 birds with one stone, so to speak. Since it debunks both the Pretrib and Preterist interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 5:3, for example. The main point being this. The DOTL meant in the NT can only come as a thief in the night only one time, not multiple different times. Which also means 1 Thessalonians 5:3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12, for example, are involving the same DOTL, not different DOTLs that happen at entirely different times. Maybe Preterists already agree 1 Thessalonians 5:3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 are involving the same DOTL? And if so, Pretribbers don't also agree as well, that they are involving the same DOTL. In this case both views are wrong even if Preterists agree that both passages are involving the same DOTL events.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 is obviously involving the DOTL since that is when the DOTL comes as a thief in the night, and they shall not escape. Shall not escape great tribulation, though? No, because the DOTL is after great tribulation. Therefore, the DOTL can't come as a thief in the night prior to great tribulation, then come again as a thief in the night after great tribulation. It can't be both. It has to be one or the other and that the OP, for one, shows that it is after great tribulation.

The DOTL involves darkness and the wrath of God, exactly what the 6th seal, for example, is involving. Exactly what Matthew 24:29 is involving. It doesn't matter that the darkness is likely not meaning in the literal sense. What matters is where Scripture reveals this time of darkness fits. It fits after great tribulation, and the OP, for one, proves it.

Therefore, Matthew 24:15-21 can't be involving leading up to 70 AD and 70 AD itself. That period of time involved the wrath of God upon unbelieving Jews. 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is not involving the wrath of God upon unbelieving Jews during the first century. It is involving the DOTL in the end of this age immediately after great tribulation(See Matthew 24:29, for one). Therefore, Matthew 24:15-27 can't be meaning great tribulation in the first century since 2000 years later, when Matthew 24:29 is meaning in relation to 70 AD, is not immediately after anything. Therefore, great tribulation has to be meaning great tribulation in the final days of this age in order for verse 29 to be meaning immediately after.
-------

BTW, I just queried Google this below in order to show I'm not misrepresenting the typical Preterist view in regards to 1 Thessalonians 5:3.

------------------

Me: how do Preterists typically interpret 1 Thessalonians 5:3

AI Overview
For Preterists, 1 Thessalonians 5:3 describes the judgment that fell upon unbelieving Jews in the first century, which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70
. They interpret the "sudden destruction" as the military defeat by the Roman army, which was not expected by the Jews who believed they were secure.
The context of "peace and safety"

The Roman perspective. Many preterist scholars see the phrase "peace and safety" (Greek: eirēnē kai asphaleia) as a reference to the Pax Romana, the period of relative peace and stability enforced by the Roman Empire. During this time, the Jewish people lived under a false sense of security, believing they were secure under Roman rule.
The Jewish perspective. Other preterists see "peace and safety" as an expression of the misguided confidence felt by many Jews. The Jewish rebels had gained some victories against the Roman army and may have felt that they were entering a period of independence and security.

The meaning of "sudden destruction"
For Preterists, the "sudden destruction" is the swift and devastating Roman invasion that ended the Jewish-Roman war.

Like a thief: Just as Paul describes the Day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night in 1 Thessalonians 5:2, the Roman siege and destruction of Jerusalem came suddenly and unexpectedly to the non-believing Jews.
Like labor pains: The analogy of "labor pains" points to the progressive intensity of the tribulation period, which began with the siege and culminated in the total destruction of the city and its temple in A.D. 70.

The "they" who will not escape
Preterists identify the "they" who say "peace and safety" and will "not escape" the destruction as the unbelieving generation of Jews who rejected Jesus during his earthly ministry.

The "Day of the Lord" in this context is interpreted as a day of judgment upon this specific first-century generation.
Paul contrasts "they" (unbelievers) with "you, brethren" (the Christian believers in Thessalonica), who were prepared for Christ's coming in judgment upon Jerusalem and thus would escape this fate.

It is hard to follow. Let me get this clear:

1. You believe that "the day of the Lord" means one specific literal day, not a longer period that may contain several events.
2. You believe it means one specific thing everywhere in the Bible, not multiple things.

Correct? If correct, we can continue to the verse in 1Thess 5:3:

While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

1. Who are the "people"?
2. What is the destruction?
3. What is "suddenly", exactly?
4. What is the escape?

Please, just one short sentence answer to each point. Not longer, no explanations, no elaborations.

 

[Davidpt]

It is hard to follow.

Don't know why it would or should be?

1. You believe that "the day of the Lord" means one specific literal day, not a longer period that may contain several events.

Per my view it does not mean one specific literal day. Per my view it is involving an era of time after great tribulation involving the vials of wrath.

1. Who are the "people"?

The ones worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign that precedes the 2nd coming in the end of this age.

2. What is the destruction?

It is meaning this for one---reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men(2 peter 3:7)

3. What is "suddenly", exactly?

If the DOTL comes as a thief in the night, it would come suddenly, unexpectedly. How could it not if no one knows the day and hour that the DOTL begins?

4. What is the escape?

There is no escape since there is nowhere to run and hide at this point, the same way there was nowhere to run and hide once the the LORD shut him in(Genesis 7:16), and that the deluge began. Keeping in mind that in Matthew 24 Jesus is comparing some of this with Noah's flood.

 

[Davy]

Zechariah Chapter 14 Represents The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, "After" The Day Of The Lord Takes Place

That above statement brethren, of course is a fabrication by those stuck on men's doctrine called Amillennialism. The following reveals that the Zechariah 14 Chapter is not new heavens and new earth time yet...

Zech 14:16-21
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Truth7t7 is definitely deceived, because Zechariah 14 which is for the time right after Jesus' future return, the above Scripture reveals the act of 'rebellion' against The LORD will still... exist. Not only that, but The LORD's punishment on those nations that refuse to come up to Jerusalem and worship Him will have NO rain, and there will be the plague upon those. Just that simple declaration reveals it is NOT new heavens and new earth timing just yet.

The next verses reveal the NHNE is not yet also.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

What is the main problem with that "LORD's house" mentioned above? What is that "house"? How many of you brethren remember what Lord Jesus told His disciples in John 14 that He goes to prepare a place for them because "in My Father's house are many mansions"? That is the "house" described in the Ezekiel 40 through 47 Chapters, the future Millennial SANCTUARY, ON EARTH, where Jesus and His elect will reign over the nations from starting on the day of His future return. It is called The Father's house. That is the "thousand years" timing declared in Revelation 20, in which the wicked are NOT cast into the "lake of fire" yet, because God's Great White Throne Judgment does not occur until AFTER that "thousand years" is over, as written in Revelation 20. Only during that "thousand years" period with Jesus making all His enemies His footstool will that "sanctuary" (or temple) shown in Ezekiel will exist.

Once that "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect of Revelation 20 is over, and the abode of hell, the wicked, and even death are destroyed in the "lake of fire", ONLY THEN will come the new heavens and a new earth time, God's Eternity. There will be NO rebellion or plagues in God's future new heavens and a new earth time. There will be NO MORE temple, or sanctuary structure either, for The Father and The Son will be The Temple thereof, as written for the new heavens and new earth time...

Rev 21:22
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
KJV

That is one of the hinge-point proofs that the Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign by Christ is meant literally.

During Christ's 1,000 years, there will be a literal stone temple in Jerusalem. And the Zechariah 6:12-13 Scripture even reveals that Christ (The "BRANCH") will build that future 1,000 years temple when He returns!

But after... Christ's 1,000 years reign with His elect over the nations, and the "second death" of casting into the future "lake of fire", then THERE WILL BE NO MORE STONE TEMPLE in Jerusalem, for The Father and The Son will be The Temple thereof, like Revelation 21:22 says. And THAT time will be the new heavens and a new earth.

So while there is still a stone temple in Jerusalem, IT IS NOT NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH TIMING YET.

 

[Davidpt]

That above statement brethren, of course is a fabrication by those stuck on men's doctrine called Amillennialism. The following reveals that the Zechariah 14 Chapter is not new heavens and new earth time yet...

Zech 14:16-21
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Truth7t7 is definitely deceived, because Zechariah 14 which is for the time right after Jesus' future return, the above Scripture reveals the act of 'rebellion' against The LORD will still... exist. Not only that, but The LORD's punishment on those nations that refuse to come up to Jerusalem and worship Him will have NO rain, and there will be the plague upon those. Just that simple declaration reveals it is NOT new heavens and new earth timing just yet.

The next verses reveal the NHNE is not yet also.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

What is the main problem with that "LORD's house" mentioned above? What is that "house"? How many of you brethren remember what Lord Jesus told His disciples in John 14 that He goes to prepare a place for them because "in My Father's house are many mansions"? That is the "house" described in the Ezekiel 40 through 47 Chapters, the future Millennial SANCTUARY, ON EARTH, where Jesus and His elect will reign over the nations from starting on the day of His future return. It is called The Father's house. That is the "thousand years" timing declared in Revelation 20, in which the wicked are NOT cast into the "lake of fire" yet, because God's Great White Throne Judgment does not occur until AFTER that "thousand years" is over, as written in Revelation 20. Only during that "thousand years" period with Jesus making all His enemies His footstool will that "sanctuary" (or temple) shown in Ezekiel will exist.

Once that "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect of Revelation 20 is over, and the abode of hell, the wicked, and even death are destroyed in the "lake of fire", ONLY THEN will come the new heavens and a new earth time, God's Eternity. There will be NO rebellion or plagues in God's future new heavens and a new earth time. There will be NO MORE temple, or sanctuary structure either, for The Father and The Son will be The Temple thereof, as written for the new heavens and new earth time...

Rev 21:22
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
KJV

That is one of the hinge-point proofs that the Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign by Christ is meant literally.

During Christ's 1,000 years, there will be a literal stone temple in Jerusalem. And the Zechariah 6:12-13 Scripture even reveals that Christ (The "BRANCH") will build that future 1,000 years temple when He returns!

But after... Christ's 1,000 years reign with His elect over the nations, and the "second death" of casting into the future "lake of fire", then THERE WILL BE NO MORE STONE TEMPLE in Jerusalem, for The Father and The Son will be The Temple thereof, like Revelation 21:22 says. And THAT time will be the new heavens and a new earth.

So while there is still a stone temple in Jerusalem, IT IS NOT NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH TIMING YET.

One thing I noticed, and you likely did to, he neglected to show how verses 16-21 fit his interpretation of the first 12 verses he brought up. He didn't even mention verses 16-21 whatsoever and one has to wonder why not?

Does he agree or disagree that verses 16-21 are meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled? What does he do with verse 16 when it says they are to go up from year to year? What does he do with verse 17 that if they refuse to go up, upon them shall be no rain? Does he think verse 17 is still meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled? Therefore, involving all of eternity since there would be no time period at that point preventing verse 17 from continuing in that manner forever?

 

[Davy]

One thing I noticed, and you likely did to, he neglected to show how verses 16-21 fit his interpretation of the first 12 verses he brought up. He didn't even mention verses 16-21 whatsoever and one has to wonder why not?

Does he agree or disagree that verses 16-21 are meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled? What does he do with verse 16 when it says they are to go up from year to year? What does he do with verse 17 that if they refuse to go up, upon them shall be no rain? Does he think verse 17 is still meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled?

I don't think Truth7t7 actually knows what to do with those Zech.14:16-21 verses to make them fit within his false belief on man's theory of Amillennialism. Many on that false theory simply bypass those Zechariah 14:16-21 Scriptures. That bypassing of relevant Bible Scripture is always a trait of men's doctrines.

So yes, many on Amill assume all of Zechariah 14 is new heavens and a new earth time, when clearly it is not, especially per that Zech.14:16-21 section. Those of us in Christ know better, because we instead do recognize those events of verse 16-21 can't be new heavens and a new earth timing.

We also recognize other Old Testament Scripture that points to Christ's future "thousand years" reign, even though that label "thousand years" is not used in those OT Scriptures. Amill depends its focus on that "thousand years" label being a spiritual expression only, and not literal. Yet Isaiah 24:22 says the kings of the earth will be shut in the prison, and after many days shall be visited. That is an OT clue about the future "thousand years" reign by Lord Jesus per Rev.20 when Satan is locked in his pit prison for that period, as written.

 

[HealthyShape]

Don't know why it would or should be?



Per my view it does not mean one specific literal day. Per my view it is involving an era of time after great tribulation involving the vials of wrath.




The ones worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign that precedes the 2nd coming in the end of this age.



It is meaning this for one---reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men(2 peter 3:7)



If the DOTL comes as a thief in the night, it would come suddenly, unexpectedly. How could it not if no one knows the day and hour that the DOTL begins?



There is no escape since there is nowhere to run and hide at this point, the same way there was nowhere to run and hide once the the LORD shut him in(Genesis 7:16), and that the deluge began. Keeping in mind that in Matthew 24 Jesus is comparing some of this with Noah's flood.

Ok, in classic preterism, the beast was Nero specifically and anti-Christian Roman emperors generally.

The destruction came upon Jerusalem and Judea "suddenly", Jesus was saying that when those who are in Jerusalem see the armies, they should not even return to their house for a cloak, but run to mountains immediately.

Those who did not obey the instruction of Jesus and stayed in the city, did not escape - Jerusalem was destroyed completely, together with chief priests, Pharisees and about a million of Jews who came to Jerusalem for a festival. This was the wrath (Lk 11:50). It was the total end of the Jewish age and the kingdom of God was given to other nations (Mt 21:33).

 

[Truth7t7]

That above statement brethren, of course is a fabrication by those stuck on men's doctrine called Amillennialism. The following reveals that the Zechariah 14 Chapter is not new heavens and new earth time yet...

Zech 14:16-21
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Truth7t7 is definitely deceived, because Zechariah 14 which is for the time right after Jesus' future return, the above Scripture reveals the act of 'rebellion' against The LORD will still... exist. Not only that, but The LORD's punishment on those nations that refuse to come up to Jerusalem and worship Him will have NO rain, and there will be the plague upon those. Just that simple declaration reveals it is NOT new heavens and new earth timing just yet.

The next verses reveal the NHNE is not yet also.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

What is the main problem with that "LORD's house" mentioned above? What is that "house"? How many of you brethren remember what Lord Jesus told His disciples in John 14 that He goes to prepare a place for them because "in My Father's house are many mansions"? That is the "house" described in the Ezekiel 40 through 47 Chapters, the future Millennial SANCTUARY, ON EARTH, where Jesus and His elect will reign over the nations from starting on the day of His future return. It is called The Father's house. That is the "thousand years" timing declared in Revelation 20, in which the wicked are NOT cast into the "lake of fire" yet, because God's Great White Throne Judgment does not occur until AFTER that "thousand years" is over, as written in Revelation 20. Only during that "thousand years" period with Jesus making all His enemies His footstool will that "sanctuary" (or temple) shown in Ezekiel will exist.

Once that "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect of Revelation 20 is over, and the abode of hell, the wicked, and even death are destroyed in the "lake of fire", ONLY THEN will come the new heavens and a new earth time, God's Eternity. There will be NO rebellion or plagues in God's future new heavens and a new earth time. There will be NO MORE temple, or sanctuary structure either, for The Father and The Son will be The Temple thereof, as written for the new heavens and new earth time...

Rev 21:22
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
KJV

That is one of the hinge-point proofs that the Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign by Christ is meant literally.

During Christ's 1,000 years, there will be a literal stone temple in Jerusalem. And the Zechariah 6:12-13 Scripture even reveals that Christ (The "BRANCH") will build that future 1,000 years temple when He returns!

But after... Christ's 1,000 years reign with His elect over the nations, and the "second death" of casting into the future "lake of fire", then THERE WILL BE NO MORE STONE TEMPLE in Jerusalem, for The Father and The Son will be The Temple thereof, like Revelation 21:22 says. And THAT time will be the new heavens and a new earth.

So while there is still a stone temple in Jerusalem, IT IS NOT NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH TIMING YET.

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?​

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Davidpt]

Ok, in classic preterism, the beast was Nero specifically and anti-Christian Roman emperors generally.

The beast is not working alone. The beast has a partner, so to speak. Meaning the 2nd beast in Revelation 13, the false prophet. Therefore, if Nero is meant as the beast in question, the verses below would need to be understood in the following manner. It is then a question of, does that fit to a T ancient history at the time?

Revelation 13:11 ¶And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of NERO before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship NERO, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of NERO; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to NERO, which had the wound by a sword, and did live

Did Nero ever have a deadly wound that was healed? What was the deadly wound that was healed if he did? Does history record that Nero ever had a false prophet who exercised all the power of NERO before him? Does history record that Nero ever had a false prophet that caused the earth and them which dwelt therein to worship NERO?

Does history record that Nero had a false prophet that deceived them that dwelt on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of NERO?

And finally, if one can know who the beast was meaning, this would mean they would obviously also know who the false prophet is meaning. Who then was the false prophet meaning? What was his name? After all, it is not reasonable to insist that one knows the name of the beast but does not also know the name of the false prophet connected with him. IOW, one can't have a beast without a false prophet. These two are inseparable. They even get cast into the LOF together, both of them still alive at the time(Revelation 19:20)

But who cares about details, right? Who care if all the details undeniably prove something can't fit what one is insisting it fits, right?

 

[Davidpt]

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?​

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Why aren't you dealing with verse 17 as well? Is that not meaning any of those in verse 16 left of the nations which came against Jerusalem? Verse 17 indicates that after verse 12 was fulfilled first, those remaining of the nations are commanded to come up year to year, which, BTW, is impossible to fulfill in a single day. But if they refuse to come up, upon them will be no rain, thus a punishment of some kind. Does it sound reasonable that one can still be threatened with punishments after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled?

Keeping in mind, you clearly have some of Zechariah 14 meaning after the time 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. And now you have to explain how verse 17 fits after verse 12 is fulfilled. Now you have to explain how there can still be a time period after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled in order to prevent what is recorded in verse 17 from continuing in that manner forever. Until you reconcile that first, you have failed to prove that you are interpreting all of Zechariah 14 correctly. But I do agree you are interpreting most of Zechariah 14 correctly, except most of Zechariah 14 is not all of Zechariah 14.

In my view it is verse 17 that proves Premil since verse 17 requires a period of time after verse 12 is fulfilled first, in order to prevent verse 17 from continuing in that manner forever. Clearly then, verse 17 is meaning before the time of the great white throne judgment, before the time of 1 Corinthians 15:28 which follows after the time of the great white throne judgment. therefore, the only time period that can prevent verse 17 from continuing in that manner forever, is the millennium. Otherwise, we have no choice but to apply this part to all of eternity---even upon them shall be no rain. Thus a punishment of some kind since it can't be meaning a blessing of some kind instead.

 

[HealthyShape]

The beast is not working alone. The beast has a partner, so to speak. Meaning the 2nd beast in Revelation 13, the false prophet. Therefore, if Nero is meant as the beast in question, the verses below would need to be understood in the following manner. It is then a question of, does that fit to a T ancient history at the time?

Revelation 13:11 ¶And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of NERO before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship NERO, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of NERO; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to NERO, which had the wound by a sword, and did live

Did Nero ever have a deadly wound that was healed? What was the deadly wound that was healed if he did? Does history record that Nero ever had a false prophet who exercised all the power of NERO before him? Does history record that Nero ever had a false prophet that caused the earth and them which dwelt therein to worship NERO?

Does history record that Nero had a false prophet that deceived them that dwelt on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of NERO?

And finally, if one can know who the beast was meaning, this would mean they would obviously also know who the false prophet is meaning. Who then was the false prophet meaning? What was his name? After all, it is not reasonable to insist that one knows the name of the beast but does not also know the name of the false prophet connected with him. IOW, one can't have a beast without a false prophet. These two are inseparable. They even get cast into the LOF together, both of them still alive at the time(Revelation 19:20)

But who cares about details, right? Who care if all the details undeniably prove something can't fit what one is insisting it fits, right?

I am not an expert in the 1st century history. While I am reading Josephus's The Jewish War, so far, it seems to me that somebody like Gesius Florus coud be such person.

Regarding the wound of Nero, see Nero Redivivus - Wikipedia

We must respect the biblical time frame - it had to happen in the 1st century. The New Testament says it clearly. But we do not have a historical record that goes verse by verse through the book of Revelation and says "this metaphor meant exactly this"

So, we can make educated guesses, only. And we must also accept that some things are simply already lost - it is 2,000 years. Many things happened that are not preserved in records.