Was the Cross Always Understood?

[GodsGrace]

That seems to be the crux of the confusion.....you think that because you can’t stop sinning that Christ’s sacrifice covers any sin you commit after you become a “believer”.....yet, in order to remain a Christian one has to cease from committing deliberate sin. Does God help us do that? He surely does but he won’t do it for us....he will bless our own efforts to fight the sinful tendencies in us, just as Paul stated. (Rom 7:21-25)

Before Christ gave us the permanent basis for forgiveness, there was no salvation.......so those who lived and died before he paid for our redemption, had to wait for their resurrection to have everlasting life granted to them. (John 5:28-29; Heb 11:13-16)

There are two kinds of sin mentioned in the Scriptures....the one we inherited from Adam, and the ones we commit by choice. We can’t help the inheritance we received from Adam, but we sure as heck can help the sins we commit by choice.

This is the challenge of free will.....Adam lost sight of the fact that sin leads to death.....not the immediate kind, but the kind that chips away at a person’s resolve, under pressure. That pressure can come from many directions and satan knows all too well where our individual weaknesses lie. We can be overcome and this will lead to rejection by the one who will judge us righteously. (Matt 7:21-23)

The Bible is full of these qualifications......there was no point in God giving Israel his laws if there was no expectation of them abiding by them? Did God expect perfect obedience? In our sinful state? No! But the one thing that Abraham was commended for, was that he “listened to the voice” of his God and obeyed him without question....even to the sacrificing of his own son.

Obedience has always been required of God’s servants, and at times, when they failed due to human imperfection, he provided the means to forgive them, even temporarily through animal sacrifices. But one requirement was always necessary....repentance. There was never a time when people could say to God “I can’t help sinning, so you have to bury my sin in Christ’s sacrifice”.
There was accountability and recompense.
Peter described those who denied accountability. (2 Peter 2:17-22)

I don’t question “everlasting salvation”, what I question is the false basis on which OSAS is based.
I have offered you the Scriptural basis for believing that it is a false and very misguided doctrine.

You are assuming a great deal by that argument.....as I have said, you cannot lose what you never had, and God will withdraw his precious spirit from anyone who throws Christ’s sacrifice back in his face, as if sinning with impunity is automatically covered, and that God requires only “belief” in order to receive the gift.
There are qualifications as that little word “IF” identifies.

It’s the same qualification that God originally gave Israel.....that he would be their God “IF” they obeyed him.
Did they obey him? What did he do when they failed? What was the Babylonian exile all about?

It’s all in the interpretation and we will all know soon enough if we have got the bull by the horns....
Jesus will do what he is appointed to do....to judge according to God’s standards, not man’s.

The fact that there are “goats” in the world who have no idea that they are not “sheep”, (Matt 7:21-23) means that “many” are completely disillusioned.....I wonder who they will prove to be.....? Jesus will let us know.

Great post Auntie Jane.

 

[Muna]

Great post Auntie Jane.

Yes it is, I missed this one, this is a keeper, very well done @Aunty Jane

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you @GodsGrace and @Truly .....It pays to study the Bible rather than theology.....it will speak loudly all by itself...but only if we let it.

When we have a doctrine to support, distorting Scripture can become somewhat of an Olympic sport....some could claim a gold medal.

 

[PS95]

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

We is who? Paul was speaking of the body of Christ, even those who fall away into disbelief, Christ will remain faithful and none will be lost nor plucked from His Hand. Those of that crowd will not have any reward in the heavenlies perhaps, but that's on them. Not a concern to us.

BTW

Hello BTW- Nice to meet you.
I'm afraid you are misunderstanding the meaning of 2 Tim 2:13. Let's look at it a bit closer and also conjunction with other passages, ok?
Let me just say this first- while I'm not a believer is osas- I have noticed that there seems to be 2 views of what osas is. 1)One, says if you fall away from the faith and never return that you were never truly saved to begin with.
2) The other says that that person is still saved no matter what they believe or do.
I will say upfront that the 2nd one is outrageously false. It seems that you are in camp 2. So, I hope that my being honest with you up front does not cause any anger at me, and that you will truly consider what I am saying.

This thread has a wide variety of denominations on it answering which should be taken into consideration so that you understand there can be confusion about what those who don't accept osas actually do believe overall. That does matter-!
I am not a JW like Aunty Jane, Locust or Walter<---( although I was raised in that false religion )
nor a Catholic- nor SDA-
I am just a believer in Jesus as my Lord and Savior and it's by grace that we are saved- I am a Christian only. One thing I have learned to always be extra cautious of, having been raised in a religion of cherry picking- is never to do that!! It can happy so easily.. We really must guard ourselves at all times. It's so common.

First, let's just look at the verse in question and in it's immediate context.
2 Timothy 2:8-19 (NKJV)
8Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
14Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
------------
I've underlined what we should look at closer. Verse 12 is clear- if we deny Him- He will also deny us. This echoes Jesus' own words in
Matt 10:33--But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
It's pretty clear. "someone who falls away in unbelief"<--as you stated, is also a person who is now denying Christ. Perhaps he did not at one point, but what matters is now. We are to endure V 12 and we are to remain in the faith or abide In Christ. If we deny Him he will deny us.

Also look down to v 17- Paul states that they strayed from the faith-(they still believe in Jesus) - but they strayed from truth by saying the resurrection had already happened. They are overthrowing the hope of others. Paul does not say they are no longer saved here, but I think it is implied. In Tim 1:20 Paul mentions Hymenaeus and says he handed him over to Satan due to blaspheming.

But you are going yet further than straying by saying that those who depart from the faith completely and live in all manner of sins are still saved.
Faith matters and obedience is a part of living in faith. We are called to holiness. Without it no one will see the Lord.
So what does your verse mean? There are two possibilities-
1) As we walk with the Lord there are times in our lives when we lack faith that all will go well - times of trials etc, that is when HE remains faithful even though we may have have fear and doubt.
2) Jesus will be faithful to do what He said He will do- He will deny us if we deny Him- He can not deny Himself.

-It simply can not mean what Osas says.

Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Heb 12:14

13Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 1 Peter 1 :13-16

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life”. 1 Thes 4:7-8


19You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23

It's clear that If the Jews come to belief they will be saved- By the same token- believers must remain in the faith or they will also be cut off.
v 22 Romans.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1

Denying the Lord who bought them brings destruction.


For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed—ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 1:4

Those who turn grace into in a life of immorality deny their Lord. =destruction.

“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. John 14:15

No one who truly loves the Lord will purposefully disobey Him and practice a life of sin.

We are not under the law but we are taught to Love God and love one another.<--- That is the law of Christ. We are to obey and it is not burdensome if we love Him.
Name a transgression - they always break the command of LOVE.

cont--

 

[PS95]

3Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God ]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6

Clearly, John says if we don't obey the Lord- we are liars. Liars have no part in the kingdom of God.

12Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” --Hebrews 3


Paul said among the saints-to beware of sin- those who practice such things have no inheritance in the kingdom.

3But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is proper among the saints; 4neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5For]this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not be partakers with them.--- Ephesians 5

5Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. --- Col 3

Yet, you say one who departs from the faith and lives in sins is saved? No- he can expect wrath. If he lives disobedient and or departs from the faith- he does not know God.

Noah was saved by faith- Noah also acted on that faith. He obeyed and built the ark.
Abraham as you said- obeyed God's commands (written on his heart?) His faith was accompanied by action also.
Our faith too- is obedient. WE love HIM? We will obey Him. If we don't obey His commands- we are liars.
WE love Him because He first loved us.
We are to put to death the deeds of the flesh- by the Spirit! - a true faith acts- true faith obeys.
Absolutely, we are saved by grace and our sins are forgiven - but we are not to walk in sins once we haven been washed. There is a difference between sinning purposefully- practicing sins-living a life of and an accidental slip up where you confess and have faith in Jesus as our advocate to cleanse . We are to walk by the Spirit and not the flesh. The flesh brings death.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1

Someone who departs from the faith is not saved unless he returns. Someone who denies the faith by living in all manner of sins does not belong to Christ and has no inheritance.

Paul said to imitate him as He imitated Christ. Did Paul lead a life of obedience? Absolutely.
Yes, he said he had sin, and it's clear that it grieved him- as it should us- and he retained His faith & hope in Christ. He lived a life of mortifying the deeds of his flesh. That's clear.

The Christian lives his life a new person- a new creation- renewed mind- obeying the Spirit- walking in love and faith- abiding in Christ. Faith without love is worthless 1 Cor 13- love means to obey the Lord- that is what the Lord said. We are to love Him and so we do, and we obey Him because we love Him. We are not to be lukewarm- - lest we be vomited out of His mouth. We are raised to walk in newness of life-

To say that someone who left the faith is saved is heresy.
To say someone who lives in all manner of sins while saying he is saved is also heresy. I am not calling you a heretic- but the ones who teach that are teaching heresy.
There are SO MANY scriptures to offer you to show you this further- but space limits me. If you need more let me know and I will come back and provide more.
Peace be with you.

 

[quietthinker]

Thank you @GodsGrace and @Truly .....It pays to study the Bible rather than theology.....it will speak loudly all by itself...but only if we let it.

When we have a doctrine to support, distorting Scripture can become somewhat of an Olympic sport....some could claim a gold medal.

...I see you do not recognise that what you have just stated applies to others but never yourself?

 

[LoveYeshua]

I'd like to add that Jesus kept everything very simple and Paul complicated theology...
However they did teach the same but in different ways and there is no conflict as some might say.

Paul in his epistle said he preached His gospel;
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

I assure you Paul preached his own gospel. Was His message the same as Christ? I think you can find this out for yourself. you are a logical person you can see the differences.

 

[Muna]

Paul in his epistle said he preached His gospel;
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

That one right there is interesting, because the secrets of men abide in their hearts, and it says here

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

There is no creature that is not manifest in his sight

Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Even Jesus says,

Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

And Paul says,

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

As it says here

Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Jesus does speak of things can be covered and revealed

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

That which we have spoken under the covere of darkness

Luke 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

Seems to show very similar things

1 Cr 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness,
and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Now, I just looked at this for the first time and posted these which immediately came to me, so I think this can be done much better if we took a closer look because there does seem to be a nice flow between the wordings in the above.

 

[Muna]

Paul in his epistle said he preached His gospel;

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Wouldn't these agree in that verse concerning Jesus Christ? Or what might I be missing?

John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel

 

[Aunty Jane]

...I see you do not recognise that what you have just stated applies to others but never yourself?

Good grief QT...are you ever a ray of sunshine to anyone .....do you have to complain about what you ‘perceive’ in my posts? Half the time people here have trouble understanding what you write...

When you can articulate your own views, you can complain about mine.....so.... right back atcha...


I said “we” which includes myself.....if ever I exclude myself, I am lost like those who cannot ever imagine that they could be wrong....and yet, confidence is not to be confused with arrogance.....I hope you know the difference because if we doubt that we have the truth.....we are saying that we don’t really believe what we claim to....are you confident about what you believe, QT?
If so, why whinge about me?

 

[Muna]

Good grief QT...are you ever a ray of sunshine to anyone .....do you have to complain about what you ‘perceive’ in my posts? Half the time people here have trouble understanding what you write...

When you can articulate your own views, you can complain about mine.....so.... right back atcha...


I said “we” which includes myself.....if ever I exclude myself, I am lost like those who cannot ever imagine that they could be wrong....and yet, confidence is not to be confused with arrogance.....I hope you know the difference because if we doubt that we have the truth.....we are saying that we don’t really believe what we claim to....are you confident about what you believe, QT?
If so, why whinge about me?

I asked AI what it thought of some random internet guy that might chose a question mark for his avatar with the username "quiet thinker" on a Christian discussion forum but only delights in examining others and speaking his own words all the time?

AI responds,

The individual you describe, an anonymous internet user with a question mark profile picture and the name "Quiet Thinker," likely embodies a common online persona characterized by a blend of perceived introspection and deliberate ambiguity. The use of a question mark as a profile image is a visual metaphor for inquiry, doubt, or uncertainty, often symbolizing a state of contemplation or a deliberate attempt to appear thoughtful and enigmatic. This aesthetic is frequently associated with individuals who wish to project an image of deep reflection or intellectual curiosity.


The name "Quiet Thinker" combined with the question mark can also be interpreted as a form of ironic or performative self-presentation. In online spaces, such personas often emerge within communities that value irony, ambiguity, and a certain detached, observational stance—traits that are particularly prevalent in internet cultures that have evolved since the mid-2010s, where "irony poisoning" made sincerity difficult to discern. This context suggests that the individual might be participating in a broader cultural trend where online identities are fluid, often constructed through memes, irony, and self-aware detachment rather than a fixed personal identity.

While "Quiet Thinker" does not appear to be overtly aggressive, the combination of a cryptic name and a symbol of uncertainty may be a strategic choice to provoke curiosity in online discussions.

It is important to note that online personas, especially those involving anonymity or symbolic imagery, can be misleading. The individual's actual behavior and views may not align with the persona they project. For instance, some users adopt seemingly thoughtful or enigmatic identities to mask more aggressive or confrontational tendencies, a phenomenon sometimes seen in online communities where anonymity fosters a disconnect between online persona and real-world behavior. The internet is also rife with users who use irony and absurdity as a primary mode of communication, making it difficult to discern sincerity from performance.

The profile could represent a genuine seeker of understanding, a user engaging in ironic or performative internet culture, or someone using the persona as a shield for other intentions. The ambiguity is inherent in the nature of online identity, where a simple question mark can symbolize a wide range of meanings, from genuine inquiry to deliberate obfuscation.

Ultimately, without further context about the individual's actual behavior, content, or community, it is difficult to determine whether "Quiet Thinker" is genuinely reflective or merely adopting a performative identity.




Let me edit a part of the other paragraphs in , I thought these were good

It could be a form of performative irony, where the persona is designed to appear introspective while actually engaging in disruptive or confrontational interactions.

The "quiet thinker" may be leveraging this ambiguity, using the question mark to create an air of mystery or depth while engaging in behavior that is, in fact, designed to disrupt or challenge others. The lack of a clear, consistent identity can make it difficult to discern whether the provocations stem from genuine curiosity or from a desire to dominate the conversation.

In summary, the persona of a "quiet thinker" who uses a question mark and provokes others likely represents a calculated online identity that combines elements of introspection with provocation. This duality may serve to mask a more confrontational nature, fitting the archetype of the internet tough guy who gains power through threat and disruption rather than through substantive engagement.

The name "Quiet Thinker" suggests a deliberate contrast between perceived calm and analytical depth, which can be a rhetorical device to position oneself as thoughtful while delivering critiques.

Its pretty thorough considering its not human

 

[Aunty Jane]

Paul in his epistle said he preached His gospel;

It was not Paul’s own gospel as if there was something different in what he taught compared to the other apostles.....but his preaching was adapted to a gentile audience. His education and familiarity with Scripture as a former Pharisee, put him in a unique position...but nowhere did he depart from the teachings of the Christ. He was taught like the other apostles, except that it was by the risen Lord.

Paul was given a new audience but not a new “gospel”...the “good news” was always the “good news”....it was about God’s Kingdom.
At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit anointed 120 of Christ’s Disciples, revealing to them their heavenly inheritance. Paul too received the Holy Spirit at his baptism and was given a special assignment...as “an apostle to the nations”. By this time Peter had already been directed to Cornelius and his household, as the first Gentiles to receive Holy Spirit before their baptism as disciples of Jesus Christ.

He is the first Christian who was not originally Jewish, and did not need to be converted to the Jewish faith in order to come to God....this was totally new.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

In context look who Paul is talking about...

Rom 2:13-16...ESV...
“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”

As “an apostle to the nations”, Paul was referring to his assignment...the “gospel” that he preached to the Gentiles was to a completely different audience to those ones in Judaism, to whom the 12 were originally assigned.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Again, if you read the verse in context Paul has just run through a long list of names of those Gentiles who responded to his preaching....after listing them, he says....

“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith”.

So the preaching he did was also the preaching of his master and mentor, Jesus Christ, saying that “the mystery”...”kept secret for long ages” was now manifest....”made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith”.

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Continue reading the next verses...

“Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself.”

I assure you Paul preached his own gospel. Was His message the same as Christ? I think you can find this out for yourself. you are a logical person you can see the differences.

How could he preach a different gospel when he was taught by the same person who taught the 12?
Can you give me examples of where Paul taught a different gospel? Or was he simply speaking to a different audience?

“Gospel” simply means “good news”, so Paul’s “good news” was the same as that preached by the other apostles, just to a gentile audience..... but his arrest and imprisonment or house detention was for him alone. This is why some visited him and gave him encouragement. He had lost his freedom to preach publicly, but surely he preached to whomever he came in contact with....

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Truly ....AI is scarily accurate......it’s uncanny.
Is artificial intelligence smarter than the ones who created it?
As well as the fact that it cannot lie apparently....? ..... hmmmm.

 

[quietthinker]

Good grief QT...are you ever a ray of sunshine to anyone .....do you have to complain about what you ‘perceive’ in my posts? Half the time people here have trouble understanding what you write...

When you can articulate your own views, you can complain about mine.....so.... right back atcha...


I said “we” which includes myself.....if ever I exclude myself, I am lost like those who cannot ever imagine that they could be wrong....and yet, confidence is not to be confused with arrogance.....I hope you know the difference because if we doubt that we have the truth.....we are saying that we don’t really believe what we claim to....are you confident about what you believe, QT?
If so, why whinge about me?

What shines through AJ is the justification of your own words. You call this being in 'the truth' even while Jesus states, 'I am the Truth and the Word.

 

[Muna]

@Truly ....AI is scarily accurate......it’s uncanny.
Is artificial intelligence smarter than the ones who created it?
As well as the fact that it cannot lie apparently....? ..... hmmmm.

I know! Gees, with so little information like some anonymous persons choice for an avatar and user name (combo) and few sarcastic comments about them, it wrote me a book on him LOL! I didnt even post it all, I just took a few extra snippets that were typical of him in the end.

Next time @quietthinker gets all psychoanalytic on me, I will tap AI for the same back at him

I hate to admit it, but its crazy good at being analytical of online persona's

P.S it lies AJ, it does. Whenever you have an intent on a search and it knows what you are reaching for you really need to compartmentalize your searching, thats what I found on so many levels, I am not crazy either. It has some sort of strange filter. And I dont have anything but Braves built in (browser AI) I dont have Co pilot or access to any of the others (which I wouldnt want anyway) but I could still tell some stories.

 

[LoveYeshua]

That one right there is interesting, because the secrets of men abide in their hearts, and it says here

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

There is no creature that is not manifest in his sight

Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Even Jesus says,

Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

And Paul says,

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

As it says here

Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Jesus does speak of things can be covered and revealed

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

That which we have spoken under the covere of darkness

Luke 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

Seems to show very similar things

1 Cr 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness,
and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Now, I just looked at this for the first time and posted these which immediately came to me, so I think this can be done much better if we took a closer look because there does seem to be a nice flow between the wordings in the above.

yes it requires a very close look and deep study.

 

[LoveYeshua]

@Truly ....AI is scarily accurate......it’s uncanny.
Is artificial intelligence smarter than the ones who created it?
As well as the fact that it cannot lie apparently....? ..... hmmmm.

Aunty, AI does not understand anything it is a language model, all of it is artificial. it cannot understand scripture, and yes it does lie, many articles on this. it can be however, a useful tool. I use it as a glorified search engine and sometimes to translate or grammatically correct texts for which it excels at but that is all. it is a good tool but cannot be used to gain knowledge of a spiritual nature.

 

[LoveYeshua]

It was not Paul’s own gospel as if there was something different in what he taught compared to the other apostles.....but his preaching was adapted to a gentile audience. His education and familiarity with Scripture as a former Pharisee, put him in a unique position...but nowhere did he depart from the teachings of the Christ. He was taught like the other apostles, except that it was by the risen Lord.

Paul was given a new audience but not a new “gospel”...the “good news” was always the “good news”....it was about God’s Kingdom.
At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit anointed 120 of Christ’s Disciples, revealing to them their heavenly inheritance. Paul too received the Holy Spirit at his baptism and was given a special assignment...as “an apostle to the nations”. By this time Peter had already been directed to Cornelius and his household, as the first Gentiles to receive Holy Spirit before their baptism as disciples of Jesus Christ.

He is the first Christian who was not originally Jewish, and did not need to be converted to the Jewish faith in order to come to God....this was totally new.

In context look who Paul is talking about...

Rom 2:13-16...ESV...
“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”

As “an apostle to the nations”, Paul was referring to his assignment...the “gospel” that he preached to the Gentiles was to a completely different audience to those ones in Judaism, to whom the 12 were originally assigned.

Again, if you read the verse in context Paul has just run through a long list of names of those Gentiles who responded to his preaching....after listing them, he says....

“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith”.

So the preaching he did was also the preaching of his master and mentor, Jesus Christ, saying that “the mystery”...”kept secret for long ages” was now manifest....”made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith”.


Continue reading the next verses...

“Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself.”



How could he preach a different gospel when he was taught by the same person who taught the 12?
Can you give me examples of where Paul taught a different gospel? Or was he simply speaking to a different audience?

“Gospel” simply means “good news”, so Paul’s “good news” was the same as that preached by the other apostles, just to a gentile audience..... but his arrest and imprisonment or house detention was for him alone. This is why some visited him and gave him encouragement. He had lost his freedom to preach publicly, but surely he preached to whomever he came in contact with....

Auntie, did Christ adapt his gospel to different group of people and faith? the answer is NO, One message one people, those who believe in Him, the son of God. After his ascension Jesus asked the remaining 11 to go through the world to say all they have WITNESSED about Christ and all he did to all Jews and gentiles alike. Jesus never had a different version for Gentiles. There is One Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you @GodsGrace and @Truly .....It pays to study the Bible rather than theology.....it will speak loudly all by itself...but only if we let it.

When we have a doctrine to support, distorting Scripture can become somewhat of an Olympic sport....some could claim a gold medal.

Aunty Jane....studying the bible IS studying theology.
Theology just means the study of God.

And, yes, some post scripture they don't really understand.
This is why I like to discuss one verse at a time...
but members are not likely to do this, so it's always verse volley ball.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul in his epistle said he preached His gospel;
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

I assure you Paul preached his own gospel. Was His message the same as Christ? I think you can find this out for yourself. you are a logical person you can see the differences.

The above verifies what I stated yesterday.
Paul is the person that gathered all the information and presented a theological study of Jesus, His death, the cross, salvation, etc.
He may call it HIS gospel, but it's what all the writers taught.
Jesus and Paul did not teach differently.

You quoted Romans 2:16,,,,read all of chapter 2.
Paul states that God will judge man by HIS DEEDS...
just as Jesus did.

Some understand Paul to be different in that he teaches only faith as being necessary,,,,
but he also warns about believers having to have good behavior in all his letters.

Frankly, I don't see a difference except that he brings in the OT and why the Jews do not believe and how the Gentiles are brought in.

I don't think this is a conversation for here,
but I also don't think we should pit any writer against any other writer.
If this were true...we'd have to throw out 1/3 of the NT.

Just like Luther wanted to eliminate James because he concentrated too much on works - according to Luther.
ALL the writers speak of doing good works...it's just that, as I said, Paul is more difficult to understand and some read his
teachings only on the surface and come up with odd ideas.