Recently, I've become convinced of my need to focus more on the "doctrines of grace", as they are called--eg, "Jesus chose me, I didn't choose Jesus"--and I wanted to maybe discuss these things, and hopefully not really argue.
Jesus Chooses Us
- Thread starter GracePeace
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Where would you like to start?
Could we say, God is good...all the time?
Could we say, God is particularly fond of all people?
Could we say, God invites the whole human family into his circle?
You need to understand what the "doctrines of grace" teach.
For example, the Scripture says in Acts 17:30,
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"
The doctrines of grace which is TULIP does not define "all men everywhere" as all of humanity, it defines it as only the Elect God has chosen.
Another example, the Scripture says in 1 John 2:2,
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
The doctrines of grace teach that "the whole world" is not all of humanity, but only the the Elect God has chosen. The doctrines of grace teach Christ did not die for all of humanity, but only for the Elect.
So you need to understand their terminology to fully understand what the doctrines of grace is teaching.
I wanted to discuss what the doctrines of grace are, to be edified, not argue about them.
It seemed you wanted to argue against the doctrines of grace--you were saying why you disagreed with them, it seemed.
Was I mistaken in how I read what you said?
No, I'm not arguing, although I do argue with Calvinists.
You said in the OP you had recently been interested in the "doctrines of grace."
I was just explaining that you need to understand what those doctrines are teaching, IF you have recently been interested.
Well, I wanted to discuss with some people who were acquainted with "Monergism"--not that I agree with all of "Calvinism", or all of the "doctrines of grace", but my hope was/is that in discussing the topic I would/will be edified by some of those ideas (even if I didn't accept all of them wholesale).
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Surely 'grace' not about folding your hands, bowing your head and repeating some pre chewed words?
I think grace is inclusive of gracious, gratuitous, graceful.
Does graciousness include punitive?....hmmmm, we can think about that!
Jesus is spoken of as 'full of grace and truth'. I guess 'full' doesn't leave room for anything else?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What a great topic!
Strongs Concordance defines grace (“charis”) in this context, as....”good will, loving-kindness, favour”.
Since, “grace” for Christians is favour from God through his son’s sacrifice, it is an underserved favour or loving kindness....one that we do not merit by ourselves through works alone, but it is a gift from God for the simple reason that we did not ask for the things that his “grace” covers. We inherited “the sin that easily entangles us” from Adam, so for now, God gives us a way to please him that doesn’t require sinlessness....Christ’s sacrifice will eventually eradicate sin completely.
He made provision for his ancient people to have their sins forgiven temporarily through the sacrifice of animals, which had to be offered regularly under God’s law......but once Jesus offered his life for ours, “once and for all time”, animals sacrifices were no longer necessary.....Jesus’ blood has atoned for our sins and continues to cover them as long as we are repentant.
Does Jesus choose us? That is a good question and for the answer, I believe we need to consult the Scriptures.
Christ’s first followers were his twelve apostles...did Jesus choose them? Not on his own.....his Father helped him to choose them, as Jesus spent an entire night in private prayer, (not publicly) so that he would make the right choice.
Was everyone the recipient of his grace? No, the religious leaders were conspiring against him because he was not saying very flattering things about them. (Matt 15:7-9; Matt ch 23)
Even John the Baptist was aware of these hypocrites and roundly condemned them for the same reasons that Jesus did. (Matt 3:7-12)
Judas Iscariot was not the recipient of his grace either, after carrying out his betrayal. He was condemned to eternal death for an unforgivable sin.
Jesus said in prayer to his Father....
“...Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. 12 When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled.” (John 17:11-12)
Jesus was referring to the prophesies about his betrayer. (Psalm 41:9; Psalm 108:9)
What is heartening, is that the Father gives us grace (undeserved favour) through his son and makes everlasting life possible for those in whom he finds an “agreeable heart”.
When King Saul fell from God’s favour due to his disobedience, the Prophet Samuel told him about God’s choice of David to replace him....
(Acts 13:22-23)
“After removing him, he raised up for them David as king, about whom he bore witness and said: ‘I have found David the son of Jesʹse a man agreeable to my heart; he will do all the things I desire.’ 23 According to his promise, from the offspring of this man, God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus”.
So it’s up to us to stay in God’s good graces because we can see from the history of God’s people that we can lose it. It might be undeserved, but that doesn’t mean that it could be taken for granted....it has to be valued and our lives lived in harmony with Christ’s teachings.
Yeah, I know the arguments against Monergism, and I agree they make sense, but I don't find focusing on them to be helpful, so I was hoping to talk with a Monergist.What a great topic!
Strongs Concordance defines grace (“charis”) in this context, as....”good will, loving-kindness, favour”.
Since, “grace” for Christians is favour from God through his son’s sacrifice, it is an underserved favour or loving kindness....one that we do not merit by ourselves through works alone, but it is a gift from God for the simple reason that we did not ask for the things that his “grace” covers. We inherited “the sin that easily entangles us” from Adam, so for now, God gives us a way to please him that doesn’t require sinlessness....Christ’s sacrifice will eventually eradicate sin completely.
He made provision for his ancient people to have their sins forgiven temporarily through the sacrifice of animals, which had to be offered regularly under God’s law......but once Jesus offered his life for ours, “once and for all time”, animals sacrifices were no longer necessary.....Jesus’ blood has atoned for our sins and continues to cover them as long as we are repentant.
Does Jesus choose us? That is a good question and for the answer, I believe we need to consult the Scriptures.
Christ’s first followers were his twelve apostles...did Jesus choose them? Not on his own.....his Father helped him to choose them, as Jesus spent an entire night in private prayer, (not publicly) so that he would make the right choice.
Was everyone the recipient of his grace? No, the religious leaders were conspiring against him because he was not saying very flattering things about them. (Matt 15:7-9; Matt ch 23)
Even John the Baptist was aware of these hypocrites and roundly condemned them for the same reasons that Jesus did. (Matt 3:7-12)
Judas Iscariot was not the recipient of his grace either, after carrying out his betrayal. He was condemned to eternal death for an unforgivable sin.
Jesus said in prayer to his Father....
“...Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. 12 When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled.” (John 17:11-12)
Jesus was referring to the prophesies about his betrayer. (Psalm 41:9; Psalm 108:9)
What is heartening, is that the Father gives us grace (undeserved favour) through his son and makes everlasting life possible for those in whom he finds an “agreeable heart”.
When King Saul fell from God’s favour due to his disobedience, the Prophet Samuel told him about God’s choice of David to replace him....
(Acts 13:22-23)
“After removing him, he raised up for them David as king, about whom he bore witness and said: ‘I have found David the son of Jesʹse a man agreeable to my heart; he will do all the things I desire.’ 23 According to his promise, from the offspring of this man, God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus”.
So it’s up to us to stay in God’s good graces because we can see from the history of God’s people that we can lose it. It might be undeserved, but that doesn’t mean that it could be taken for granted....it has to be valued and our lives lived in harmony with Christ’s teachings.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I think the doctrines of grace are wonderful, because they put salvation from beginning to end firmly with almighty God. He caused me to believe on His Son. He keeps and protects me. He forgives my sin, and grants me eternal life, and so on. Praise His wonderful name!
One of the most difficult doctrines regarding God's Sovereign grace it 'limited atonement'. It's very difficult for some to accept that God, in His written Word, clearly says that not all of mankind shall be eternally saved. God says that some will remain in darkness and unbelief their whole life and at the judgment will have part in the lake of fire that is the second death. This alone proves 'limited atonement' in that not all of mankind will be eternally saved.
The argument put forward is that the gift of eternal life is 'offered' to every human and the choice to be saved or remain in darkness is decided according to man's free will choice. Is this a valid argument? My response is that God does not 'offer' to eternally save man. Rather He 'gives' eternal life to whosoever believes the gospel. The message about Christ is 'offered' without exception to all of humanity, and through the message heard according to grace through the imputation of faith, whosoever believes is eternally saved in Christ alone.
Mark 16:15 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The truth according to the Bible is that from the fall man lost the ability to freely choose God. Because since the fall none will seek for God because the natural man does not desire to have God or anyone else to rule over them.
Romans 3:10-11 (KJV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
I for one find this doctrine to be very comforting. It brings much peace to know that God will eternally save us according to His will and not my own. If eternal life were left for me to choose Him, I would never be eternally secure in my salvation.
This is only one point; it should be sufficient to start the discussion.
That's one thing I noticed about Monergism : the fruit it yields is the right kind.
Recently, considering how He chose me, not me Him, I had so much love for a sibling in Christ instead of struggling with the knowledge that I had an absence of love and a presence of hatred for this person. There was a working in me that was not me at all. I fulfilled the Law, yet there was no Law that had preceded, only a belief in God.
It's true, then : "apart from Me, you can do nothing" (Jn 15), so the whole point of the message is fellowship with Him (1 Jn 1), then we will "work the works of God", because "the work of God is that you believe" (Jn 6), then we can say "not I but the grace with me" (1 Co 15) and "the Father does His works" (Jn 14).
(This is not to say I hadn't experienced a supernatural love for others, God's love, under Synergism, only that it would only manifest in certain situations--the situation where I was evangelizing, but I was doing so for my own salvation, not thinking about how Christ chose me.)
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What I really would like to think about is how Christ will lose none, and, related to that, no one can take me out of God's Hand. Before He saved me, He knew me, and sought me, and, now, going forward, He will not lose me--before, during, and after, it's all God Who saves.
Amos 3:3 Do two walk together, unless they have agreed?
So, it seems like the most helpful (loving) thing I can do for others is for me to abide in Christ--because then He will be performing in me the good I cannot perform if I do not abide--by "Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then, you, too, will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 Jn 2:24). That seems so easy. I experienced the fruit of it.
Please, guys, pray that God will grow me in grace by growing me in the Word of His Grace.
Jesus says "the Words that I speak are Spirit and life", 1 John says "the Spirit is the truth", 2 John says, "children walking in the truth" : by walking in the truth, we walk in the Spirit, and bear the fruit of the Spirit, so we will not be deceived into thinking that "walking in the Spirit" consists merely in "knowing all mysteries" or "removing all mountains", or casting demons out or performing great miracles in Jesus's Name.
Amos 3:3 Do two walk together, unless they have agreed?
So, it seems like the most helpful (loving) thing I can do for others is for me to abide in Christ--because then He will be performing in me the good I cannot perform if I do not abide--by "Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then, you, too, will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 Jn 2:24). That seems so easy. I experienced the fruit of it.
Please, guys, pray that God will grow me in grace by growing me in the Word of His Grace.
Jesus says "the Words that I speak are Spirit and life", 1 John says "the Spirit is the truth", 2 John says, "children walking in the truth" : by walking in the truth, we walk in the Spirit, and bear the fruit of the Spirit, so we will not be deceived into thinking that "walking in the Spirit" consists merely in "knowing all mysteries" or "removing all mountains", or casting demons out or performing great miracles in Jesus's Name.
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Before, I thought, "If I love other people, I will tell them about Jesus"; now, I know that I cannot love other people, only Jesus can create love for people in me, and I should aim to abide in Him by believing His Good News, then He will glorify Himself, and that will draw others into fellowship with Him (if my life doesn't draw others into fellowship with Him, it is fruitless--yet, I cannot draw others into fellowship with Him if I myself am not there, so the best thing I can do is remain in fellowship with Him).
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Since it is God who “draws” people to his son, (John 6:44)…No one can come to Christ as a genuine disciple, unless they are invited by the Father in the first place. (John 6:65)
What is in us humans that motivates the Father to bring people to his truth, as taught by his obedient son?…..it is very apparent that calling yourself a “Christian”, doesn’t make you one…. so what does?
It is true that no one can take us out of God’s hand….except one….and that is ourselves.
Think back to Eden and how the one who influenced the woman into disobedience was himself a rebel.
No one took satan out of God’s hand…he did that himself by his own premeditated choices.
The humans likewise had no reason to disobey God, until someone planted a seed of doubt…someone who was already disobedient himself….influencing the thinking of another, who in turn influenced someone else….and the stage was set for all that followed in human history.
What did Paul say… would be the case for those who followed the unpopular course of Jesus Christ?
2 Tim 3:12-13…ESV..
”Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.”
Do you see the pattern? Those who are deceived will go on deceiving others.
So the next logical question is….”what is the truth?” Ask a dozen different denominations and you will get a dozen different “truths”….but what if they are all wrong?…and the one place you will find God’s truth is the one place very few choose to look?
In a world ruled by the devil, (1 John 5:19) nothing is as it appears. Satan has the “whole world” under his control, which mean that his lies are accepted as truth by the masses, and the truth is only accepted by a “few“ who can see through the deception. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) The cramped and narrow road is the road to life, but it is ‘the road less travelled’. We need God’s spirit to stay on track….there are many obstacles in the way.
Its not what you believe, or whether you are a Bible Scholar, or whether you can perform miracles…..it’s how you live your life 24/7…and how you demonstrate the truth in your heart, through your actions.
“Walking n the spirit” means accepting an uncomfortable and unpopular truth, rather than a comfortable and popular lie. Only God can lead a person by his spirit to face derision for accepting his truth, rather than choosing to follow the status quo…..siding with the crowd, so as not to make waves.
Jesus said he came to cause division…..why? (Matt 10:34-39)
Jesus and his apostles made waves…and the religious majority of the day, chose to execute an innocent man rather than accept his unpopular teachings. They arrested his apostles and threatened them if they didn’t stop spreading Jesus’ teachings.
Who would you have sided with, if you had lived back then?
I don't want to debate with dissenters, I would like to discuss with Monergists so I can be edified.
I can further explain later but now I'm in a mini sauna lol
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
To be honest, I had never heard of monergism, so I had to look it up…
Wiki defines it as….
”Monergism derives from the Greek monos (sole) and ergon (work) and refers to a single source acting alone. In Christian theology, it primarily denotes the belief that God is the sole agent in human salvation. This view, known as "divine monergism," is characteristic of Calvinist and Augustinian soteriology.”
LOL…. half your luck! I just had cataract surgery….so writing a bit one eyed at the moment…..
Enjoy….
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