What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?

[Waiting on him]

My understanding of the Hebrew suggests that it should be paraphrased in this manner: -

Genesis 2:15-17: - 15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die the second death."

I have a question if you don’t mind JR, what Old Testament scripture is it that references the resurrection of Jesus?


When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
— John 2:22

 

[St. SteVen]

I would assume that the fruit on the tree that gave them knowledge of good and evil may have been,,,, love, peace, temperance, joy,,etc?

I have a theory that we got our God-given human conscience from eating thereof.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

[

 

[Jay Ross]

Does that really work?

Yes! It does.

When Abram went down to Egypt, the Egyptians understood that they would die the second death at the time of the final judgement.
When Abraham went down to Gerar and Abimelech, king of Gerar, sent and took Sarah in Genesis 20 God told him that he was a dead man and that he should restore Sahar to Abraham and that if he did not then he would die the second death. Remember that Abimelech was a righteous man and that God had prevented him from sinning by going into Sahar bed.

The Israelites did not understand the workings of the second death and when it would occur, and so they have attempted to explain away the consequences of sinning by just saying that if they sin against God that they will "surely die" to have the understanding of a spiritual death because Adam did not die after sinning against God by eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge.

In Revelation 20 we read this, "

The Great White Throne Judgment​

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.​

My understanding is that when we sin, we become a candidate for the second death, at the time of the Final Judgement at the end of the seventh age, if we have not reconciled ourselves with God before we physically die. Jesus told the rich man that all people have the same opportunity to be righteous before God before they die, and that before they died it was their responsibility to be in right relationship with Him. If they have not established their righteous relationship with God before they die, then there is no opportunity to change their decision after their physical death.

Ezekiel 18 provides us with this understanding.​

 

[Keiw]

But if death is a thing which thrown into the lake of fire (which is called the second death) than those delivered out of death (before it was destroyed) would themselves have no more death. Because they do get delivered out of death "first" and then death gets thrown into the Lake of fire (before anyone else follows). And so how would their death be permanent (so to speak) when the death they abode in was destroyed first, because if you destroy death first than how can you die?

See how you can try and do a little work around with this?

The resurrection occurs during Jesus 1000 year reign. Rev 20 speaks of it= post Armageddon-- Many of these can be taught Gods truth, then satan is loosed for a little while to test the resurrected given a second chance( all will be tested though)- Then satan and his get thrown into the lake of fire= permanent death. For some a second death.
Rev 21:1= Gods kingdom rule in 100% control of all creation forever, everything back to perfection when Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father( 1 Cor 15:24-28) Paradise on Earth.

 

[Keiw]

Jack's error was one of basic grammar. The verse he quoted doesn't say everyone is tormented forever. It says that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are tormented forever. Nobody else is mentioned.

Whether the others can feel or not is irrelevant, because they're not even there.

The sayings of eternal suffering in the NT are symbolism. The lake of fire destroys things eternally. As proof, death and hades being thrown in there, showing 100% eternal destruction. It goes for everything thrown in there.

 

[Jay Ross]

I have a question if you don’t mind JR, what Old Testament scripture is it that references the resurrection of Jesus?

When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
— John 2:22

The John 2:22 passage is silent as to what John was referring to.

John 2:13-22: - 13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” 17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.”​

​

18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”​

​

19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”​

​

20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”​

​

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.​

I need some clarification from you.

What was the sign that Jesus referenced from time He would raise the temple up again in three days?

When did this sign take place?

What was the understanding of the Jews, who were asking Jesus for a sign, what the sign was?

Did Jesus' resurrection happen before or after the sign Jesus gave?

Now if you want to show your understanding, then it would be best to start a new thread.

 

[Jack]

The resurrection occurs during Jesus 1000 year reign. Rev 20 speaks of it= post Armageddon-- Many of these can be taught Gods truth, then satan is loosed for a little while to test the resurrected given a second chance( all will be tested though)- Then satan and his get thrown into the lake of fire= permanent death. For some a second death.

Did you rip this from your Bible? Or maybe you need permission from the JW Governing Body to read and quote it?

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 21:1= Gods kingdom rule in 100% control of all creation forever, everything back to perfection when Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father( 1 Cor 15:24-28) Paradise on Earth.

 

[Muna]

The resurrection occurs during Jesus 1000 year reign. Rev 20 speaks of it= post Armageddon-- Many of these can be taught Gods truth, then satan is loosed for a little while to test the resurrected given a second chance( all will be tested though)- Then satan and his get thrown into the lake of fire= permanent death. For some a second death.
Rev 21:1= Gods kingdom rule in 100% control of all creation forever, everything back to perfection when Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father( 1 Cor 15:24-28) Paradise on Earth.

I understood not everything you just said

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Does that really work?

Yes! It does.

When Abram went down to Egypt, the Egyptians understood that they would die the second death at the time of the final judgement.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Why would you claim that "the Egyptians understood that they would die the second death at the time of the final judgement."?

[

 

[Jay Ross]

St. SteVen said:
Does that really work?

How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Why would you claim that "the Egyptians understood that they would die the second death at the time of the final judgement."?

[

Because the Egyptians began to hate the Hebrews, the descendants of Eber, particularly the Hebrew man who brought this calamity upon them because of his fears.

 

[Keiw]

I understood not everything you just said

Many who died from OT days never heard the name Jesus.

 

[Keiw]

Did you rip this from your Bible? Or maybe you need permission from the JW Governing Body to read and quote it?

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I explained the symbolism to you.

 

[Jack]

I explained the symbolism to you.

And I explained, "symbolism" is a JW FAV when they don't like what God said.

 

[Muna]

Many who died from OT days never heard the name Jesus.

It testified of the cross of Jesus Christ, or his sufferings, they look forward

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

These here are in the present

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

 

[Keiw]

It testified of the cross of Jesus Christ, or his sufferings, they look forward

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

These here are in the present

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

That could mean right before the end they will know they have been thrust out. In Ezekial about 20 x ( give or take) it says about events back then and speaks of these last days---They will have to know, i am YHVH(Jehovah)--
The name to be called upon to be saved Joel 2:21) Acts 2:21& Romans 10:13= Jehovah.

 

[St. SteVen]

What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?​

I posit that they died spiritually that day. They were not immortal/eternal beings that became mortal in that day.
On the other hand, we are immortal beings. An afterlife awaits us all. Many aspects to explore on this.

Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1, 4-5 NIV
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, ...
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved.

--- See ADDENDUM in post #1 for more info ---

 

[Behold]

What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?​

Spiritual

 

[St. SteVen]

Spiritual

Agree.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[Behold]

Agree.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Its what Genesis teaches.

Gen teaches that being one with God was LOST for all of Humanity by "one man's sin", as Paul explains .
That's Adam's sin......so, He lost spiritual union with God for us all.
Adam's FALL, is the fall of us all.
Jesus, who is the 2nd Adam, came to restore back to us, what Adam the 1st lost for us.....and that is "born again" "Spiritual union" with God.

So, we read of our need to become "IN Christ"..... and as Christ and God are "One".....then all the born again are also, because they have been restored to spiritual union with God by Spiritual Birth (Born again).
If this never happens to the person, then tney die "in their sin" having committed the unpardonable sin of never being forgiven and never being born again......and that can't be resolved after you die.

= Jesus said......>"You must. be born again".....spiritually, and that has to happen before you die, or you die under God's wrath, John 3:36, and there is no remittance after you die, as there is no Cross of Christ offered to anyone in Hell.
There is no Blood of Jesus offered to anyone in Hell, as this is only offered while you are alive and can put your faith in Christ.

See, everyone in Hell believes in Jesus right now, because they know He is Real, because HELL is REAL, and they are in it.
So, that is not FAITH........and God requires our FAITH in Christ before we die.

""""""well, now that im in Hell, .....i certainly believe in Jesus now, and i love that bible now, and i want to have God as my Father.. .now""""">

A.) NEVER !!

See, the Blood of Jesus was shed on EARTH for living humans......and it has to be applied to them by God before they die, or they will bust Hell wide open having died in their SIN. and there is no way back.

There is no 2nd Chance in Hell to become a CHRISTian.......as the person had all their 2nd Chances to Believe in Jesus all these YEARS you were alive and were not interested, even tho something in your heart was always leading you to consider Christ.
So, all of those years, is the 2nd chance God gives, and that is PLENTY of 2nd Chances, even if you only lived to be 30., and most live to be 60-90........and they had all thos years........all those Years to trust in Christ.
They didnt, and God honors your choice after you die.

 

[St. SteVen]

So, all of those years, is the 2nd chance God gives, and that is PLENTY of 2nd Chances, even if you only lived to be 30., and most live to be 60-90........and they had all thos years........all those Years to trust in Christ.
They didnt, and God honors your choice after you die.

Countless billions never had a first chance. What about them?

I say nothing is left to chance.