Wow....
God does not follow your fixed rules when He saves a person, every convert has an unique story.
Let God be God and don't try to put Him in a box.
Only Those Who Do the Will of God Will Enter the Kingdom
- Thread starter LoveYeshua
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Wow....
God does not follow your fixed rules when He saves a person, every convert has an unique story.
Let God be God and don't try to put Him in a box.
Bladerunner...
No offense, but it's useless to discuss anything with persons that are way
over the edge of Christian theology.
Jesus came to earth for two reasons:
1. Atonement for our sins - to be the final sacrifice that will ever be needed.
2. To establish the KINGDOM OF GOD on earth - We christians are SUPPOSED to be making THIS world a better place to live in.
If I need scripture to support the above common mainline Christian theology -
then it's better to just stop posting at all.
BTW,,, there is NO RAPTURE found anywhere in the NT.
This doctrine NEVER was taught by the church.
We should be wary of doctrine that is new and was never taught by the Apostles.
Jesus is coming back one time...at the end of the world.
The idea of a rapture as it is defined in dispensational premillennialism is not found in historic Christianity and is a relatively recent doctrine originating from the 1830s. The term is used frequently among fundamentalist theologians in the United States.[2] The origin of the term extends from the First Epistle to the Thessalonians in the Bible, which uses the Greek word harpazo (Ancient Greek: ἁρπάζω), meaning "to snatch away" or "to seize".
source: Wikipedia
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
source: AI Overview
The modern doctrine of the Rapture began in the 19th century with a prophetic vision claimed by Margaret MacDonald, a Scottish teenage girl, in 1830. Her vision of a pre-tribulation rapture was then developed into a full theological system by John Nelson Darby, who further popularized it in the United States. It became more widespread through influential works like the Scofield Reference Bible and modern authors such as Hal Lindsey and the Left Behind book series.
- Margaret MacDonald's vision:
In 1830, a 15-year-old girl in Scotland named Margaret MacDonald claimed to have a vision of believers being "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air before a period of tribulation.
- John Nelson Darby's influence:
John Nelson Darby, an Irish evangelist and founder of the Plymouth Brethren, adopted and systematized MacDonald's ideas into a theological framework known as dispensationalism. He taught that the Rapture would occur before a seven-year tribulation period.
- Popularization:
- C.I. Scofield: He incorporated Darby's views into his influential Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely used by fundamentalist Protestants.
- Hal Lindsey: His 1970 book, The Late, Great Planet Earth, spurred a new wave of interest in end-times prophecy, with the Rapture doctrine playing a prominent role.
- C.I. Scofield: He incorporated Darby's views into his influential Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely used by fundamentalist Protestants.
Dear ProDeo,
Yes, I am writing from experience. You can find my conversion testimony on my teaching website that shows just below my member name.
Joe
When all commentaries agree...
I'd venture to say that they're 99% correct.
If the rain falls on a person, and it means something, that something is what counts...not the amount.
I already have stated that JESUS said that all we need is the faith of a mustard seed.
Faith saves. It doesn't ever state HOW MUCH.
A person's understanding depends on whether or not they study the word....
I know persons that have NEVER read the bible and don't understand much about theology except that they love
God and live a life they believe will follow His commandments.
Are THEY saved according to you?
That's sufficient knowledge for salvation.
And, again, you don't understand what A MEASURE OF FAITH means....
and I'm not repeating it.
BUT
You SHOULD find out.
The New Covenant is also given to carnal man.
ALL MEN are carnal until and unless they serve God.
Actually Faith,,,everyone who decides FOR God is in the New Covenant - if they're Christian of course.
It IS a spiritual covenant, as you've stated...but it also has behavioral components to it.
God has ALWAYS demanded obedience.
No latter rain.
Obedience is for ALL.
You're right here.
The Mosaic Covenant was written on stone.
The New Covenant is written on the heart.
But if you want person to have knowledge, I believe they will have to study the bible - and I mean with those that KNOW the bible.
You and I don't really KNOW the bible. We just think we do.
But we know all we need to know in order to know about God and make a decision FOR Him.
Dear ProDeo,
It is true people have different experiences along the pathway to salvation but they all follow the same pattern that Paul laid down with his conversion (1Tim 1:16). No believer can deviate from that pathway.
Here is a summary of that pathway:
- A person begins the pathway to salvation when Christ comes to them and freely gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. These people make up the group of “many” who have been called to be saints (Mat 22:14). After each called person has received their small measure of the Spirit, they will make a confession of faith and will enter the church (1Cor 12:3). However, the new believer (a babe) will remain spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted (shown in Mat 12:43-45, Mark 8:15-25 & Paul's experience on the Damascus Road).
- Next, the spirit of anti-Christ will enter the unconverted babe and cause the Abomination of Desolation to occur within them. This is when the babe receives the mark of the beast and begins consuming Satan's leavened bread. The babe has now been made "worse than the first"; a Man of Sin. As a Man of Sin, the person will mix their own works with the works of Christ under the New Covenant. This is when the person will experience evil to its fullest – it is their time of “great tribulation” (Mat 24:21, Rev 2:22 & Rev 7:14).
- After becoming a Man of Sin, the person is fallen from grace. They will have unknowingly entered Satan’s apostate church. The "many" who are called to be saints but who were not chosen will remain in this worsened spiritual condition until they die.
- For the “few” who are chosen (the Elect/Heirs), Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Spirit of Truth/Baptism of the Spirit). This is when an Elect person is sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise (Eph 1:10-14) and when they are “born again” as a child of God. As a new child of God, the person’s spiritual blindness will be healed. This is also when the Elect person will repent of their works so as to make Christ's pathway straight for Him to "appear". When they repent, they have entered into the rest of Christ and have spiritually fulfilled the Sabbath Day law (Heb 4:1-10).
- Now that Christ has made His Bride “ready” (Rev 19:7), Christ will spiritually appear to the Elect person and gather the newly born child of God to heaven (spiritually speaking, not literally, Mat 24:29-31). This is when the Marriage of the Lamb occurs.
- Now with "eyes that can see", the Marriage Supper of the Lamb/Lord's Supper will occur where Christ will feed His new Bride bread and New Wine. This is when they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation which previously occurred within themselves when the spirit of anti-Christ entered them (Mat 24:15-16). The Day of the Lord is now imminent.
- The truth that comes from the bread and New Wine will usher in the Day of the Lord/Thousand Years Reign (judgment) for the Elect person.
- During their judgment, the spirit of anti-Christ and the person’s carnal & religious spirit (the worsened marred spirit/Great Harlot w/devils) will be "taken" from within the believer and cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction (Rev 19:20 and Mat 24:40-41).
- After this judgment is complete, the child of the Devil will be converted into a child of God.
- After the conversion event, the person’s spirit will now only be governed by the Holy Spirit, thereby making their heart and spirit “new” (Eze 36:25-26). The person will then be at peace (Isa 26:12) and will be ready to begin the maturing process which will make them into a perfect man of full age. The maturing process occurs as the Holy Spirit feeds them “their daily bread” (Mat 6:11) and as the Holy Spirit chastises them when they need correction (Isa 26:9 & Heb 12:8 apply).
- Next along the pathway comes a time of testing when Satan is loosed from his prison (Rev 20:7-10). After the child of God passes their time of testing (just as Christ “typed” that they would, Mat 4:1-11), it will be said that they have overcome this world (Rev 3:21).
- The person is now ready for the bodily resurrection which will occur at the end of this age. This is when the child of God receives their immortal spiritual body (redemption of the body, Rom 8:23). Death will then be defeated and they will be ready to begin their reign with Christ in the final age.
God rules this world and He alone directs the steps of each person. Before the foundation of this world, God chose certain individuals to be blessed by an early salvation that comes with blessings and honors. At that time, He established a pathway that each of them will travel to their moment of salvation/conversion. Mankind does not have a free will ability to decide a different path that God established for them to follow. When a babe believes that they can direct their own steps, they are sitting in God's temple claiming to be God who alone has a free will ability.
Joe
1 Thessalonians 5:3 has nothing to do with your analogy.
The analogy is in reference to the end coming suddenly, like when labor begins in a woman.
It's about the end of the world when Jesus returns for a second time.
Nothing here about being born again.
For those reading along:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child *, and they will not escape.
Faith,,,
There are no APOSTATE believers (which is a contradiction in terms) of the elect.
One is either APOSTAT
or
a BELIEVER.
part 1 of 2
part 2 of 2
You're great at making them up.
And you should make up a different religion to which you can adhere...
because I see NOTHING of the Christian religion in your writings here.
You like mysteries and "hidden things".
I replied saying that the mystery is that YOU think Jesus came here to HIDE THE TRUTH from us.
I think, if I remember correct, that JESUS said that THE TRUTH will make us free.
For the truth to make us free...
I do believe we would need to know the truth.
Again,,,I think you're referring to a different religion.
I NEVER said I was confused.
I said YOUR POSTS are confusing posts because they conflate CHRISTIANITY with some unknowns religion which I've never studied -not that I know them all.
Does it say CHRISTIAN under your avatar?
Yes. It does. I just checked.
So how about getting on board with Christianity and stop with this language you've made up?
That would behoove you.
1. There are no mysteries in the sense that Jesus was hiding something from us.
2. There is no early rain or latter rain...just new believers and mature believers.
3. God created everything good and nothing that is evil. This is blasphemous...you attribute to God the works of satan.
4. Please use a commentary if some verses are difficult to understand...nothing wrong with it.
5. You also sound a bit calvinist----You should just start over from the beginning and stop studying the way you are...
I mean no disrespect, but the Christian religion has already been established...
you just need to follow it.
You really should be writing science fiction stories.
You're great at making them up.
And you should make up a different religion to which you can adhere...
because I see NOTHING of the Christian religion in your writings here.
Are you a gnostic, maybe?
You like mysteries and "hidden things".
You've said this before.
I replied saying that the mystery is that YOU think Jesus came here to HIDE THE TRUTH from us.
I think, if I remember correct, that JESUS said that THE TRUTH will make us free.
For the truth to make us free...
I do believe we would need to know the truth.
Again,,,I think you're referring to a different religion.
I'm not one to be confused easily.
I NEVER said I was confused.
I said YOUR POSTS are confusing posts because they conflate CHRISTIANITY with some unknowns religion which I've never studied -not that I know them all.
Does it say CHRISTIAN under your avatar?
Yes. It does. I just checked.
So how about getting on board with Christianity and stop with this language you've made up?
That would behoove you.
1. There are no mysteries in the sense that Jesus was hiding something from us.
2. There is no early rain or latter rain...just new believers and mature believers.
3. God created everything good and nothing that is evil. This is blasphemous...you attribute to God the works of satan.
4. Please use a commentary if some verses are difficult to understand...nothing wrong with it.
5. You also sound a bit calvinist----You should just start over from the beginning and stop studying the way you are...
I mean no disrespect, but the Christian religion has already been established...
you just need to follow it.
being born again is little more that starting over from a false perspective. it is how ever possible to go from one false perspective to another and still be fooling ones self .
Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
When all commentaries agree...
I'd venture to say that they're 99% correct.
This is not true. After Paul's death, the churches all became apostate and began teaching "perverse things" that Paul said would come into the church. If a teaching is widely accepted my most believers, then it is 99% sure to be incorrect. You should not be following the teachings of the "many". The "many" are unconverted, spiritually blind and carnally minded.
Because of the apostasy of the church, the church has become places where the blind lead the blind.
One other point: The carnal mind of mankind believes that there is safety in numbers. You can see this truth reflected by the various different non-Christian groups in this world - they are everywhere. The same is true for babes who likewise are carnally minded. They feel safe and secure in the group of many.
1Th 5:3 For when they (the Elect babes who are still in the group of "many") shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them (conversion), as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
After a Elect person is converted, they will come out from the group of "many" (called to be saints) and will belong to the group of "few" (saints). It is the "few" who know the truth and are who you should be listening to.
You said:
If the rain falls on a person, and it means something, that something is what counts...not the amount.
I already have stated that JESUS said that all we need is the faith of a mustard seed.
Faith saves. It doesn't ever state HOW MUCH.
Here is the parable:
Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
All the parables that begin with the phrase "the Kingdom of heaven is like" are teaching on certain aspects of the pathway to salvation that the Elect will travel.
In this parable, the "field" is the world which contains individual persons. The "man" is Christ and the "seed" that He sows in the field is the Word of God (who is Christ). The seed can only begin growing within a person after it receives the Early Rain. After it does, the person will become a "babe" (a non-fruit producing tree) who can only draw the milk of the Word. The spiritual teachings of the New Covenant will still be veiled to them. Then, before the tree can produce its fruit (fruit of the Spirit), "birds of the air" will come and lodge in the tree's branches. The "birds of the air" are unclean spirits which bring false teachings to the babe. It is at this point that the babe becomes apostate.
The parable I just explained is supported by what Christ taught here:
Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.
Since a new believer (a babe) remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.
This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.
You said:
A person's understanding depends on whether or not they study the word....
I know persons that have NEVER read the bible and don't understand much about theology except that they love
God and live a life they believe will follow His commandments.
Are THEY saved according to you?
All babes will quickly fall away and become unfaithful after they are given the Early Rain. After a babe becomes unfaithful, they are no longer justified by faith and have come under the condemnation of the Law again. This is what happens to 100% of the babes. No one can avoid it happening to them.
Also, being justified by faith is what makes Christ's pathway straight for Him to appear to the person and convert them. The moment of conversion is when a person is saved.
Mankind's salvation is to be spiritually changed to be like Christ. Until Christ converts a babe, they will still have the same marred spiritual makeup that they originally had from the beginning. However, after a babe becomes apostate, that original spiritual makeup will be made "worse than the first" by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ.
Below is another analogy that teaches about conversion.
I call it the Sword analogy.
When Christ first comes to an unbeliever, He will give them the Early Rain. The truth that they receive from the Early Rain (Christ and Him crucified) will strike a blow to the person's head (Satan). But because the babe only has a measure of faith and remains spiritually blind, the blow by the Sword of Christ will not slay them (convert them). While the babe waits for Christ to return and strike a second blow to their head (which will convert them), the deadly wound that was previously delivered to their head will be healed. It it healed by the deceptions of Satan which caused the babe to become unfaithful. It is at this point that the babe becomes apostate and starts being governed by the spirit of anti-Christ. Because Satan's deceptions are so powerful, the babe believes that they are following Christ, when in fact, they are not. They are following Satan who is masquerading as Christ.
Instead of the babe having a new head (Christ is the head of the church), they will retain their natural head who is Satan.
Revelation chapter 13 teaches a portion of this analogy. In that chapter, the apostate babe is represented by the first beast who has seven heads and ten horns with ten crowns. The second beast is the spirit of anti-Christ who governs the first beast.
The Seven headed beast description:
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast (an apostate babe): and they worshipped the beast (sits in God's temple claiming to be god), saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
The spirit of anti-Christ description:
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb (masquerades as Christ), and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
All apostate babes have the mark of the beast. It is a spiritual mark and its number is 666. The number six represents mankind in their natural state. When the number six is repeated three times, it represents that the person has gone through a spiritual process (the number three represents a spiritual process has happened). After the spiritual process is complete, the babe will be "worse than the first"; a man of sin. The man of sin is represented by the Seven Headed beast.
I will respond to your other points in my next post.
Joe
bdavidc
Well-Known Member
- Mar 31, 2025
- 1,142
- 1,116
- 113
- 67
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
You have several misconceptions in your reply that do not square with Scripture.
First, the belief that the true church became apostate following the death of Paul is unbiblical. Jesus Christ stated that, “I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18). The church did not die out, God has always maintained a remnant of faithful believers.
Second, the phrase “if most people believe it, it’s probably wrong” is the way of man and not of God. Truth is not determined by the numbers, it is determined by what the Scripture says. Agreement is never the test, rather it is what did God actually say.
Third, your teaching that all “babes” (spiritually immature believers) will at some point fall away and become “false prophets” is false. The Bible says, “Having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13). As soon as a person truly believes in Christ, he is justified, sealed, and forever belongs to Him (Romans 8:1).
Fourth, you distorted the parable of the mustard seed. The point of the parable is to show how the Kingdom of Heaven would grow (Matthew 13:31–32). The parable does not in any way teach how individual believers would become apostate. Parables cannot be twisted to mean what Jesus never said.
Finally, the “seven-headed beast” of Revelation 13 is not a “babe in Christ”. The beast represents a future world power system under the control of Satan. It does not refer to individual believers. It is one thing to interpret what is written, it is another to read into the text your own private symbolism.
God’s Word admonishes, “No prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20). Interpretation does not include making the text say what you want it to say. Stick with the text. The Bible does not need decoding, it needs believing.
Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
That's sufficient knowledge for salvation.
And, again, you don't understand what A MEASURE OF FAITH means....
and I'm not repeating it.
BUT
You SHOULD find out.
Yes, it is sufficient knowledge if the babe remains faithful. The Jewish Elect remained faithful until Christ came again on the Day of Pentecost. They were spared from having to experience a time of apostasy. But after Paul's death, the pathway to salvation changed. It started including a time of great tribulation. Since the end of the 1st century, all the Elect have experienced the apostasy.
You said:
The New Covenant is also given to carnal man.
ALL MEN are carnal until and unless they serve God.
Yes, the New Covenant is given to carnal man but carnal man cannot understand it or follow it. That is why Christ will do 100% of the work of the New Covenant and that is why salvation is a free gift.
All men are carnal until they are converted.
You said:
Actually Faith,,,everyone who decides FOR God is in the New Covenant - if they're Christian of course.
It IS a spiritual covenant, as you've stated...but it also has behavioral components to it.
God has ALWAYS demanded obedience.
No latter rain.
Obedience is for ALL.
Christ is the one who causes a person to make a confession of faith. Faith is one of the gifts that come with the Early Rain. As for obedience, it is also Christ who makes that happen.
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Under the New Covenant, 100% of the works are the works of Christ. He is the one who spiritually changes a person to be like Him.
In contrast, the Old Covenant is 100% the works of man.
When a person mixes the Old and New Covenants, they are following Satan's "another gospel". When they follow this false gospel, they have been bitten by the crooked serpent who teaches the crooked way (man's works). After a babe is bitten, they will become unfaithful and will no longer be justified before the Law.
Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine/Old Covenant), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.
Since babes remain carnally minded, Christ says that they will still prefer the Old Wine. That is why Satan has no trouble deceiving a babe into accepting his false gospel.
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Without the baptism of the Spirit (Latter Rain) and conversion, a person has little ability to be obedient to Christ. The Old Covenant was given to be our schoolmaster to teach us this truth. It seems you have not learned this lesson yet.
You said:
You're right here.
The Mosaic Covenant was written on stone.
The New Covenant is written on the heart.
But if you want person to have knowledge, I believe they will have to study the bible - and I mean with those that KNOW the bible.
You and I don't really KNOW the bible. We just think we do.
But we know all we need to know in order to know about God and make a decision FOR Him.
Yes, scripture was given to teach us truth. However, truth (except for the Old Covenant of Law) was written in the spiritual language of Christ. To understand that language, Christ must heal the person's spiritual blindness - and that only happens when they are given the Latter Rain. Why? Because the person will then have the Spirit of Truth to guide them into all truth.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth (Latter Rain), is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.
That was your last point so I will end this post here. I saw that you made some other posts so I will take a look at them now.
Joe
Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
1 Thessalonians 5:3 has nothing to do with your analogy.
The analogy is in reference to the end coming suddenly, like when labor begins in a woman.
It's about the end of the world when Jesus returns for a second time.
Nothing here about being born again.
An Elect babe experiences the "end of the ages" when they are converted. Here is what Paul said about the end of the ages:
1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.
Matthew chapter 24 and the other end-time scriptures are teaching about the pathway to salvation. Those teachings are presented in Christ's spiritual language and they apply within a person because that is where the Kingdom of Heaven comes.
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.
Christ is the Kingdom of God:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ: 29 Whereunto I also labor, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily (not Paul's own works).
Since the end-time events apply within each of the Elect, those end-time spiritual events were already happening when John received the vision. And since Christ's second coming is when He comes to convert each of His Elect, His second coming is a reoccurring event.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND (happening now). 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; (second coming is a reoccurring event) and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 11:17 saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was and who is to come, because you have taken your great power and reigned.
You are incorrectly understanding the end-time prophecies to be outward world events that only happen one-time near the literal end of this age. This understanding is what it means to have a carnal understanding of Christ's spiritual teachings and is why Christ (the Word of God) remains veiled to those who have this understanding.
You said:
There are no APOSTATE believers (which is a contradiction in terms) of the elect.
One is either APOSTATE
or
a BELIEVER.
An apostate believer is one who believes that they are following Christ, but is in reality, following Satan. Their belief is misplaced.
Joe
Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
you've said this before.
I replied saying that the mystery is that YOU think Jesus came here to HIDE THE TRUTH from us.
I think, if I remember correct, that JESUS said that THE TRUTH will make us free.
For the truth to make us free...
I do believe we would need to know the truth.
Again,,,I think you're referring to a different religion.
Christ only reveals His truth to the Elect and only then after they are converted.
Here is where Christ teaches this truth:
Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, it is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, how is it that ye do not understand?
In the verses above, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on the spiritual language of God's Word - His language:
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
At this point in time (before they were converted at Pentecost), the disciples had received the Early Rain of the Spirit but had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain of the Spirit). And because of such, they were still spiritually blind and could not understand the spiritual teachings of Christ.
Christ ends His comments above by asking the disciples this question: “How is it that ye do not understand?” No response from the disciples is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.
Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they brought a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, Christ goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in type by the healing of a blind man.
In verse 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. Christ does not have to tell the blind man to look down, the blind man just does it naturally. The spit (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (carnal understanding). This event represents the time when a person is called to be a saint and when they enter the church.
After Christ asks the man what he could see, the man looks up and says that he could see men "walking as trees". "Walking as trees" is a spiritual symbol for babes who walk by sight (the flesh/marred spirit with a carnal & religious spiritual nature) rather than by faith & the Holy Spirit. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted and could only see Christ carnally. Paul stated that this near-sighted type of understanding will only allow a believer to see "Christ and Him crucified" (1Cor 2:2). This means that a new believer (a babe) can see Christ's physical work that He did under the Old Covenant, but Christ's spiritual work that He is presently doing under the New Covenant will remain blurred (veiled).
This first healing of the blind man reflects the true spiritual condition of a new believer when they first enter the church. At this time, the believer is left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. They can see a little, but that only opens the door to Satan's carnally based deceptions - deceptions which each new believer will readily accept due to their marred spirit & carnal mind still being in control of them (Mat 12:43-45, Mat 24:24 & Luke 5:39).
For a carnally minded and spiritually blind believer (Early Rain only), the Old Wine still tastes better to them:
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desires the new: for he says, The old is better.
The Old Wine represents the Old Covenant which is based on the works of man. The New Wine represents the New Covenant which is solely based on the works of Christ.
Peter says that this near-sighted condition is the same as being blind:
2Pet 1:9 But he that lacks these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Peter makes this statement because the believers (babes) to whom he was addressing were mixing their own works with faith. They were still preferring the Old Wine.
In the final verse of the story of the blind man, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again, but as He does, Christ has the man look up instead of down. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to a believer. The man’s upward gaze represents the spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth.
From that moment onward, we can know that the blind man is a type for a called AND chosen believer who has received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit (James 5:7-8). The man has been given eyes that can see spiritually ("drawn from the breasts" Isa 28:9). From his new ability to understand God's Word, the man will come out from Satan's deceptions and will begin walking by faith and by the Spirit. After the man dies and is resurrected from the grave, He will receive the reward of life during the final age where he will reign with Christ.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
For those who were not chosen and were not given eyes that can see spiritually, they will go away to judgment with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46). They will suffer loss, but by the end of that age, they, too "shall be saved, yet so by fire":
1Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abides which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I will respond to you last comment in a second post.
Joe
Last edited:
Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
Does it say CHRISTIAN under your avatar?
Yes. It does. I just checked.
So how about getting on board with Christianity and stop with this language you've made up?
That would behoove you.
1. There are no mysteries in the sense that Jesus was hiding something from us.
2. There is no early rain or latter rain...just new believers and mature believers.
3. God created everything good and nothing that is evil. This is blasphemous...you attribute to God the works of satan.
4. Please use a commentary if some verses are difficult to understand...nothing wrong with it.
5. You also sound a bit calvinist----You should just start over from the beginning and stop studying the way you are...
I mean no disrespect, but the Christian religion has already been established...
you just need to follow it.
From reading your list above, it is very clear that Christ is not working to heal your spiritual blindness at this time. But it will happen someday - either in this age or the final age. God's Word proclaims it:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved (by His work of conversion), and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Also, you are right when you say that the Christian religion has already been established. It was established near the end of the 1st century when the churches became apostate.
Here is why I say this:
Religion is man's attempt to make themselves acceptable to God. This is the premise that Old Covenant is founded upon.
The New Covenant is the opposite of religion. Under the New Covenant, it is God who is doing the work of making mankind acceptable to Him.
And since God never fails at anything, the salvation of all mankind is certain to happen.
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
I really can't see any reason to continue our discussion. If Christ was opening your eyes to some of what I have presented, I would be willing to continue. However, that does not seem to be the case. This is probably a good time to end our discussion.
Joe
Dear Locust,
Being born again is to be converted from being a child of the Devil to being a child of God. Conversion requires Christ to give a person both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by His judgment. This is far more than just changing one's perspective.
Joe
I have read your testimony. You were baptized in 2000 and still considered yourself not saved ?
Strange.
Dear bdavidc,
You said:
First, the belief that the true church became apostate following the death of Paul is unbiblical. Jesus Christ stated that, “I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18). The church did not die out, God has always maintained a remnant of faithful believers.
Scripture teaches over and over again that the pathway to salvation will include a time of being apostate. The apostasy began near the end of the 1st century. Paul knew it was coming and that is why he warned the babes in his churches with tears for three years. Paul knew it was going to affect people that he knew personally. The coming apostasy was very distressing news for Paul.
Also, you are right when you say that the true church did not die out. The true church has continued in the lives of the converted Elect who have come out from the apostate church. The Elect are few in number compared to the "many" who make up the apostate churches of this world.
You said:
Second, the phrase “if most people believe it, it’s probably wrong” is the way of man and not of God. Truth is not determined by the numbers, it is determined by what the Scripture says. Agreement is never the test, rather it is what did God actually say.ou said:
All the churches in this world are apostate. Though they have many different beliefs and cosmetic differences, they all have one belief in common; they all mix works with faith. It is this one belief that causes a babe to fall from grace. It is the sin that leads to death.
Since nearly all teachers, seminaries, doctrines, commentaries come from the apostate churches of this world, they are "probably wrong". I stand by my comment.
You said:
Third, your teaching that all “babes” (spiritually immature believers) will at some point fall away and become “false prophets” is false. The Bible says, “Having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13). As soon as a person truly believes in Christ, he is justified, sealed, and forever belongs to Him (Romans 8:1).
The sealing of the Holy Spirit occurs when a person receives the baptism of the Spirit (the Latter Rain). Babes are not "sealed" by the Holy Spirit since they have only been given the Early Rain. They are merely called to be saints. It is the spiritual process of conversion that seals a person with the Holy Spirit and makes them a saint.
Here is the scripture with my comments in blue:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: (this happens after a person is given the Early Rain) in whom ALSO AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of Promise (this is the Latter Rain that comes after a time of waiting after a person first believes), 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
You said:
Fourth, you distorted the parable of the mustard seed. The point of the parable is to show how the Kingdom of Heaven would grow (Matthew 13:31–32). The parable does not in any way teach how individual believers would become apostate. Parables cannot be twisted to mean what Jesus never said.
Babes are the tree in which unclean spirits make their lodges. This represents the apostasy of the babe. If you can't see it, you should ask the Lord to heal your blindness.
You said:
Finally, the “seven-headed beast” of Revelation 13 is not a “babe in Christ”. The beast represents a future world power system under the control of Satan. It does not refer to individual believers. It is one thing to interpret what is written, it is another to read into the text your own private symbolism.
The seven headed beast is not a "babe in Christ". That spiritual symbol represents an apostate babe who is no longer "in Christ". As for your understanding that the seven headed beast represents a "future world power system", that understanding is very carnal and is contradicted by scripture.
In the first chapter and in the last chapter of Revelation, it says that the "time is at hand" and that that the blessed (the Elect) will keep the sayings of the prophecy:
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.
Rev 22:7 says that Christ comes quickly. Christ comes quickly to the Elect because when He comes to them, it is for the purpose of converting them before they physically die.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those (Elect babes) who are waiting for him.
The sayings of the prophecies in the book of Revelation teach the spiritual pathway that the Elect will travel to their moment of salvation. If those sayings are future world events, how could most of the Elect ever hope to keep those sayings? They couldn't.
Your understanding is very wrong and is contradicted by scripture.
I have tried to help you before and it ended badly. I have no desire to have another prolonged discussion with you. Like GodsGrace, Christ has not made you ready at this time to receive the truth of His spiritual teachings of the New Covenant.
Joe
Dear ProDeo,
Water baptism is to be performed after a person receives the Early Rain and makes a confession of faith. It is that faith that makes Christ's pathway straight for Him to return and convert them. That is the moment of salvation. Faith just makes it happen.
Joe
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
Acts 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Acts 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
I prefer the true Gospel, not yours.
Bladerunner
Active Member
you said: Bladerunner...
No offense, but it's useless to discuss anything with persons that are way
over the edge of Christian theology.
Bladerunner...I feel the same way, lets just cut it off here and now. Blessings.
Similar threads
