Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture

[GodsGrace]

Very confused people congregate here.

They quote passages which they impose their own understanding upon.

A member posting scripture does not mean he is imposing HIS OWN understanding on the scripture.

If you notice @No Pre-TB posted scripture and left out paragraphs of explanation -which is what those do that impose their own understanding on verses.

He plainly posted the scripture and just explained WHY he used the verses he did.

YOU...OTOH,,,are good at making little comments but you fail to post ANYTHING of substance.
Maybe YOU are the confused one.

 

[David in NJ]

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Doesn't look Pre-Trib to me.

Acts 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Wait, how does Jesus descend from Heaven to rapture us and bring us back to Heaven for 7 years if he cannot leave Heaven till the restoration of all things which happens after the destruction? Doesn't look like Pre-Trib to me.

1 Cor 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I wonder where Paul is quoting from? Could it be Isaiah 25?

And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

In this mountain is the resurrection? Isn't that the 1k year reign of Christ? Pre-Trib, we have a problem.

Matthew 24
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Wait the wicked were taken away in the flood? So the one taken is not the rapture but the wicked and the ones left are the righteous?
Pre-Trib we got a problem.

But no one knows the hour when the son of man will come (for the rapture).
Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Wait a second, that day know one knows is linked back to Christ earlier words when he said "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:"

Those Pre-Trib's and their Pre-Trib trickery! Almost got me again. That's the 2nd Advent.

Yet, if you allow yourself to "be tossed too and fro by every wind of doctrine from men" you will be confused enough to accept that there are many "returns/comings" of the Lord.

"the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood"

Serpent speak: "did JESUS really say HE is coming after the Tribulation..."

 

[GeneZ]

A member posting scripture does not mean he is imposing HIS OWN understanding on the scripture.

If you notice @No Pre-TB posted scripture and left out paragraphs of explanation -which is what those do that impose their own understanding on verses.

He plainly posted the scripture and just explained WHY he used the verses he did.

YOU...OTOH,,,are good at making little comments but you fail to post ANYTHING of substance.
Maybe YOU are the confused one.

How can anyone produce a post of substance when they can not understand even the Rapture?

 

[No Pre-TB]

How can anyone produce a post of substance when they can not understand even the Rapture?

I understand the harpazo, which is such a minor thing in scripture compared to the resurrection. As I'm sure you are aware, most saints will rise at the resurrection. Only a remnant that survive until the coming of our Lord will be harpazo'd.

The scripture I provided was the substance and it is up to you and your theology how to interpret that against Pre-Trib.

Example: In Acts 3:21. Christ must remain in Heaven until the restoration of all things. If he must remain there till its restoration, things must be destroyed and removed first. That contradicts Pre-trib which says Christ will descend from heaven and rapture us to Heaven with him for 7 years before the tribulation (Daniels 70th week). If that were true, Christ would have to leave Heaven before the restoration. Since the Bible has no contradictions, there is an issue with Pre-Trib's theory.

This isn't an attack on Pre-Trib, rather it is meant to set facts straight. When we hold to a theory, that theory needs to be iron tight. If it has cracks, we need to ask ourselves why is that so?

 

[GeneZ]

I understand the harpazo, which is such a minor thing in scripture compared to the resurrection. As I'm sure you are aware, most saints will rise at the resurrection. Only a remnant that survive until the coming of our Lord will be harpazo'd.

What is your understanding of the meaning of "the coming of the Lord?"

There is so much confusion here, I did not want to jump into what was the equivalent of jumping into a street fight.

The coming of the Lord is when the Tribulation ends.
It is not the same thing as the Rapture, for the Lord does not return to the earth at the Rapture.

 

[No Pre-TB]

What is your understanding of the meaning of "the coming of the Lord?"

The parousia of the King. Christ return.

 

[GeneZ]

The parousia of the King. Christ return.

That is not what the Rapture is.
The Rapture takes place in secret above the earth, where we are gathered in the clouds.

Christ's return takes place when on earth, he puts an end to the seven-year Tribulation.

He then sets up his kingdom on earth, ruling from his throne in Jerusalem for 1000 years.

grace and peace ............

 

[David in NJ]

How can anyone produce a post of substance when they can not understand even the Rapture?

What part of JESUS words do you not understand?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[GeneZ]

What part of JESUS words do you not understand?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect?
The gathering of the elect here is gathering the Jewish believers who that this point are in heaven. It refers to the resurrection of the dead born again Jews of the entire Jewish age (pre-Church Age, who were originally in the Earth in "Abraham's bosom", but Christ took them with Him into heaven. Next, we also have the Tribulational believing Jews who died/were martyred . . .

In Matthew, Jesus was speaking to Jews...as a Rabbi!
Not the Church!
There was no church yet existing until Acts, Chapter 2.

Matthew's passage speaks of the returning of Christ to put an end to the Tribulation, and to begin His promised Millennium, as promised to the Jews.

The Jews knew from the Torah that the Lord was to set up His kingdom on earth and reign over them!

Isaiah 65:17-25​

“See, I will create​

new heavens and a new earth.​

The former things will not be remembered,​

nor will they come to mind.​

​

But be glad and rejoice forever​

in what I will create,​

for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight​

and its people a joy.​

I will rejoice over Jerusalem​

and take delight in my people;​

the sound of weeping and of crying​

will be heard in it no more.​

​

“Never again will there be in it​

an infant who lives but a few days,​

or an old man who does not live out his years;​

the one who dies at a hundred​

will be thought a mere child;​

the one who fails to reach a hundred​

will be considered accursed.​

They will build houses and dwell in them;​

they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.​

No longer will they build houses and others live in them,​

or plant and others eat.​

For as the days of a tree,​

so will be the days of my people;​

my chosen ones will long enjoy​

the work of their hands.​

They will not labor in vain,​

nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;​

for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,​

they and their descendants with them.​

Before they call, I will answer;​

while they are still speaking, I will hear.​

The wolf and the lamb will feed together,​

and the lion will eat straw like the ox,​

and dust will be the serpent’s food.​

They will neither harm nor destroy​

on all my holy mountain,”​

says the Lord."​

​

​

 

[No Pre-TB]

That is not what the Rapture is.
The Rapture takes place in secret above the earth, where we are gathered in the clouds.

Christ's return takes place when on earth, he puts an end to the seven-year Tribulation.

He then sets up his kingdom on earth, ruling from his throne in Jerusalem for 1000 years.

grace and peace ............

You didnt ask me what the rapture is. You asked me, What is your understanding of the meaning of "the coming of the Lord?"
I answered it. If you want to talk about the harpazo, that's a different question.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The Rapture takes place in secret above the earth, where we are gathered in the clouds.

Christ's return takes place when on earth, he puts an end to the seven-year Tribulation.

He then sets up his kingdom on earth, ruling from his throne in Jerusalem for 1000 years.

grace and peace ............

Regarding the resurrection: Does a cry, a shout and a trumpet sound like a secret?

And does this look like a secret?

And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The gathering of the elect here is gathering the Jewish believers

There is no such thing. We are all one in Christ. That's like saying everyone else is Gentile believers. The wall of partition is broken. Once you come to Christ, you are a believer. Blood doesnt matter. Culture doesnt matter.

If you want scripture on this, I can provide it. Let me know

 

[No Pre-TB]

In Matthew, Jesus was speaking to Jews...as a Rabbi!
Not the Church!

So the Great Commision is for the Jews? Got it.
But there is a problem there, see the Gospels are great because they back one another. In Mark 13, speaking of the same discourse as Matthew 24, Christ says what I say to you I say to ALL. So its not for the Jews, its for everyone.

37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch

 

[David in NJ]

The elect?
The gathering of the elect here is gathering the Jewish believers who that this point are in heaven.

All who are in Christ are God's elect = John 15:16
You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples(Bride of Christ) came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: = those in Christ are the elect of God

Romans/Apostle Paul speaking to the elect/christians
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Christ up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Colossians 3:12 Apostle Paul speaking to christians
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another,

 

[Scott Downey]

Hello GodsGrace, that is how I understand it, though not everyone agrees.



I have given this a lot of thought too since the passing of my father. I think this gets into the larger discussion of where the consciousness resides. That is a difficult question to answer even for the secular world. Scientists don't know for sure because science deals with the material, tangible world, whereas consciousness is intangible and subjective. It obviously involves the brain, but is it purely a biological process? If NDEs are to be believed, then the answer is no. In some accounts, they were able to accurately describe their surroundings and what was happening to them when they were supposed to be dead or unconscious.

Since it's impossible to know for sure, I can only offer a theory. I think the brain acts as an interface of sorts for the consciousness, which resides elsewhere. Where? I don't know, possibly outside our three spatial dimensions (in the spiritual realm). There are certain physical and biological processes that can interfere with that connection, such as during sleep, comas, or with brain damage, but that connection isn't lost until death. Once the body dies, the connection is severed, and our consciousness unplugs, as it were, and becomes fully aware of the spiritual world around us. If that is true, then a person's soul/spirit in a coma would remain with them until they died. If you've seen the movie Avatar, it can be used as a rough analogy of how the body/brain acts as a receptacle for our spirit/soul/consciousness (whatever term you want to use).

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Not to cause more confusion about that. People who have had NDE, tell of themselves floating above their bodies, like they left the body and then bumped on the ceiling. Heard and saw people around their body, aware of things around them. That they lived to tell that tale shows they were separated from the body, but the body not yet dead, their spirit was nearby. And a living body can live some time aided by medical technologies while a person is unconscious. So, there may be some genuine connection of the spirit and the body until finally severed by genuine death. Some NDE, the people had a choice to either pass on or go back to their bodies, and some were told it was not yet their time to die. They met with departed family, friends, God, Jesus etc...

I myself had such an experience, once left my body, found myself floating in the room. Got scared and dove back in. I was a Christian and felt like I had a choice to make, and God was pleased with what I chose as it was not my time. This happened in my freshman year in college, and I was having a very rough time living in that dorm. That and some other experiences fully convince me of the spiritual reality we are living in. After that, I met many Christians at university and things got a whole lot better.

 

[GeneZ]

All who are in Christ are God's elect = John 15:16
You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples(Bride of Christ) came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: = those in Christ are the elect of God

Romans/Apostle Paul speaking to the elect/christians
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Christ up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Colossians 3:12 Apostle Paul speaking to christians
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another,

During the age of Israel?
............. Jews were God's elect.

During the Church age?
............... Christians (Jews and Gentiles) are now God's elect.

Chosen are the people with God's purpose in mind, when choosing them.

God castes his 'vote.'
Therefore...
He elected those He wants to serve for His purpose!

grace and peace .......

 

[David in NJ]

During the age of Israel?
............. Jews were God's elect.

During the Church age?
............... Christians (Jews and Gentiles) are now God's elect.

Chosen are the people with God's purpose in mind, when choosing them.

God castes his 'vote.'
Therefore...
He elected those He wants to serve for His purpose!

grace and peace .......

Well said and TRUE

 

[GeneZ]

Well said and TRUE

You agree?

Before the Church age?
Jews were elected for the New Earth kingdom in their resurrection.

In the Church age?
Christians are elected for Heaven!
Not, the New Earth promised the Jews.

Today.
In the church age, there are no longer Jews and Gentiles.
Our home is Heaven, not the New Earth.

Yet, Jews of the past dispensation have remained Jews.

 

[No Pre-TB]

You agree?

Before the Church age?
Jews were elected for the New Earth kingdom in their resurrection.

In the Church age?
Christians are elected for Heaven!
Not, the New Earth promised the Jews.

Today.
In the church age, there are no longer Jews and Gentiles.
Our home is Heaven, not the New Earth.

Yet, Jews of the past dispensation have remained Jews.

Can you provide scripture that says our home will be in Heaven and not on the New restored Earth?

 

[Jericho]

I myself had such an experience, once left my body, found myself floating in the room. Got scared and dove back in. I was a Christian and felt like I had a choice to make, and God was pleased with what I chose as it was not my time. This happened in my freshman year in college, and I was having a very rough time living in that dorm. That and some other experiences fully convince me of the spiritual reality we are living in. After that, I met many Christians at university and things got a whole lot better.

My wife had a similar experience when she was a teenager. She said she was lying in bed, and she left her body without any apparent reason. It was brief, and then she slammed back into her body. Some people claim to do this willingly through astral projection. I don't know if such a thing is possible or not, but it would seem very dangerous in more ways than one. Another time, my dad was in the hospital when he was younger. He had a major injury and almost died. My mom and a friend of the family had their heads down praying for him, and he could feel himself floating up off the bed, though he said he was still in his body. I'm not sure what to make of that, but there you go. He said he almost went through the ceiling but then was lowered gently down without causing any pain.