The Great Tribulation Began in 70AD and Continues to This Very Day

[Scott Downey]

Titus 3
New King James Version
Graces of the Heirs of Grace

1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

 

[Scott Downey]

Isaiah 53​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

The Sin-Bearing Messiah​

1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no [a]form or [b]comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no [c]beauty that we should desire Him.

3 He is despised and [d]rejected by men,
A Man of [e]sorrows and acquainted with [f]grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely He has borne our [g]griefs
And carried our [h]sorrows;
Yet we [i]esteemed Him stricken,
[j]Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded[k] for our transgressions,
He was [l]bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes[m] we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord [n]has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.

8 He was taken from [o]prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

9 And [p]they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 [r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the [s]spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[rwb]

The fall in Eden was the plan of God is all I can think, as God is the supreme intelligence and has full knowledge of all things past, present future. Nothing escapes God, it says no one has resisted His will.

Absolutely! I believe this is why the Covenant of Redemption was a plan ordained in heaven before the foundation of the world. Knowing mankind with complete autonomy would not freely choose to submit to another, not even to the Creator, given free will they would desire to like gods to be in charge of their destiny. Without having knowledge of either good or evil, man must experience these things before they could understand why they would need a Savior to possess eternal life. For that reason, the plan was conceived in heaven before creation that God would provide Himself the sacrifice, by becoming Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.

Things happen for the glory of God and even God experiences sorrow, but God still does what He does to fulfil His words.
The fall brought pain, trials, tribulation, but it also brought glory to God, for it is the ministry of mercy which is exceedingly glorious.

This too I absolutely agree with! The way the fall would be for the glory of God would be fulfilled through the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world by becoming flesh & blood, living without sin, giving His life on the cross, and resurrect from the grave. Man could never understand this without possessing knowledge of both good and evil.

The question then becomes, why did they need to possess knowledge of good and evil since everything God created was "very good" and there was no sin or death found in God's creation? We circle back again to the first question, "what was/is Satan"? If he is a spirit being, as I believe, but was not a fallen angel of God, but he a spirit who displayed evil characteristics symbolized as a creature (serpent), allowed to be there that humans would experience evil that they might also experience good?

 

[Scott Downey]

Absolutely! I believe this is why the Covenant of Redemption was a plan ordained in heaven before the foundation of the world. Knowing mankind with complete autonomy would not freely choose to submit to another, not even to the Creator, given free will they would desire to like gods to be in charge of their destiny. Without having knowledge of either good or evil, man must experience these things before they could understand why they would need a Savior to possess eternal life. For that reason, the plan was conceived in heaven before creation that God would provide Himself the sacrifice, by becoming Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.



This too I absolutely agree with! The way the fall would be for the glory of God would be fulfilled through the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world by becoming flesh & blood, living without sin, giving His life on the cross, and resurrect from the grave. Man could never understand this without possessing knowledge of both good and evil.

The question then becomes, why did they need to possess knowledge of good and evil since everything God created was "very good" and there was no sin or death found in God's creation? We circle back again to the first question, "what was/is Satan"? If he is a spirit being, as I believe, but was not a fallen angel of God, but he a spirit who displayed evil characteristics symbolized as a creature (serpent), allowed to be there that humans would experience evil that they might also experience good?

Since Satan is a celestial being, what would he be if not one of the angels though?
Satan is not a man, which logically points to an angelic order.
From the beginning were just God, angels and men.

1 Corinthians 4:9
For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.

1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

Scripture speaks of men, angels, God.
And the giants or 'Nephilim' were flesh and blood, so God considers them men no matter what their origins.
I just happen to think they are the evil spirits, and when they died in the flood, God left them free to roam as evil spirits to test mankind.
They seek to possess a body having lost their own, and have influence in this world.

And they also appeared again.
But there are no more 'Nephilim' today, apparently God stopped the giants from being able to return again, so far.

OG was one of the last of the giants, he was Rephaim, and king of the Amorites.

Deuteronomy 3

“Then we turned and went up the road to Bashan; and Og king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei. 2 And the Lord said to me, ‘Do not fear him, for I have delivered him and all his people and his land into your hand; you shall do to him as you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who dwelt at Heshbon.’

3 “So the Lord our God also delivered into our hands Og king of Bashan, with all his people, and we [a]attacked him until he had no survivors remaining. 4 And we took all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we did not take from them: sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls, gates, and bars, besides a great many rural towns. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children of every city. 7 But all the livestock and the spoil of the cities we took as booty for ourselves.

8 “And at that time we took the land from the hand of the two kings of the Amorites who were on this side of the Jordan, from the River Arnon to Mount Hermon 9 (the Sidonians call Hermon Sirion, and the Amorites call it Senir), 10 all the cities of the plain, all Gilead, and all Bashan, as far as Salcah and Edrei, cities of the kingdom of Og in Bashan.

11 “For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of the [b]giants. Indeed his bedstead was an iron bedstead. (Is it not in Rabbah of the people of Ammon?) Nine cubits is its length and four cubits its width, according to the standard cubit.

1. Deuteronomy 3:11 Heb. Rephaim

How this was stated
In 1 Enoch 15:8–12:

“The spirits of the giants… shall be called evil spirits upon the earth,
because they were born of men and from the holy watchers…
Evil spirits they shall be on earth,
and evil spirits they shall be called.
The spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and cause destruction on the earth.”

It’s not in the canonical Bible, but it was well-known among early Jews and even quoted in the New Testament (Jude 14–15 quotes Enoch directly).


So, according to that ancient interpretation:

• The giants (Nephilim) were half-divine, half-human.
• When they died in the Flood, their souls were cursed to wander the earth.
• These disembodied souls became the “evil spirits” or “demons” that tempt and possess humans.

---

The New Testament doesn’t explicitly repeat the Enoch story, but some verses seem to echo it:

• Luke 8:30–33: demons beg Jesus not to send them into “the abyss,” recalling how the rebellious angels were imprisoned.
• 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 both mention angels who sinned and were bound in chains, paralleling the “Watchers” in Enoch.
• Matthew 12:43–45: Jesus says unclean spirits “wander through dry places, seeking rest.” That matches the Enochic image of restless, bodyless spirits.

So while the canonical Bible doesn’t say outright that the Nephilim’s spirits became demons, that idea was clearly present in Second Temple Jewish theology, and the New Testament authors knew and echoed it.

Fun to contemplate, and the early church believed things like this for hundreds of years.

 

[Davy]

What was/is Satan?
Is the serpent in the garden symbolic for Satan a spirit being?

Genesis 3:1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

God's Word only tells us the serpent, symbolic of Satan, was more subtle (cunning & crafty in a bad way) than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. Does this verse say the serpent too was created along with the beast? Or does it seem to indicate the serpent, symbolizing Satan was simply there?

What you appear to lack is an understanding of timelines, like when it was that Lucifer first rebelled in coveting God's throne for himself. Lucifer's rebellion when he drew a third of the stars (angels) was prior... to his time as "that old serpent" in God's Garden of Eden.

By the time Satan was in God's Garden tempting Eve it shows he had already fallen at some time prior, and was working against The Father and The Son by the time he was tempting Eve.

That means we have to apply that timing to his actions with Adam and Eve, with his already being in a fallen state. It means the power of death had already been assigned to Satan by then also.

Ezekiel 28 with God's parable about the "king of Tyrus" is actually about Lucifer. God said there that He created him perfect in his ways. Lucifer became evil when he rebelled.

That also is when the 'beast' metaphor began to be applied to Satan. It is a euphemism, which means use of a symbol for his having become evil, and thus lowly, when originally he was highly exalted before he rebelled, per Ezekiel 31.

The serpent was cursed by God at the same time God sent A&E from the garden, telling them in essence that after much suffering, sorrow, pain and hard labor they would die. Just as God had promised that in the day (age/time) they ate of the forbidden tree they would die.

....

The Bible tells us that everything in heaven and earth were created by God, He is the Creator of ALL things. We know from the Bible when God created every living thing upon the earth, as well as when He created visible things in the sky and the sea. But I have yet to discover any verse or passage that tells us when God created spirit beings. They seem only to exist. We know from what is written that they exist. And that like all things created by God, the spirit beings also are used by Him to bring about whatever He purposes.

You missed Job 38:4-7 when God said all the all the sons of God shouted for joy when He first laid the foundations of the earth.

What was the purpose for God allowing the serpent, symbolic of Satan to be in the garden of Eden to tempt A&E?

To set the stage for this 2nd world earth age that began with the forming of Adam and in God's Garden. It was in prep for sending His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for the remission of sins of those who would believe. Hebrews 2:14 and 1 John 3:8 reveals it was for this purpose that The Son of God was manifested, to destroy the works of the devil.

 

[Davy]

Daniel 9:26

26And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood. And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

And after the sixty-two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself

....
Gabriel had already made it clear: the Messiah, the Prince, would appear after the sixty-nine weeks—that is, after the completion of 7 weeks and 62 weeks (a total of 483 prophetic years). This places the Messiah’s arrival at the very beginning of the final 70th week (as stated in verse 25).

The above is in error, simply because the Daniel 9:26 verse says Messiah would be "cut off" after the 62 and 7 weeks (the 7 weeks come from verse 25).

62 plus 7 equals 69 weeks, not 70.

 

[Davy]

I confirm, we are in the time of Jacob's trouble, I have had several daily visions of this, always the same one repeating for over a week. as for the year or date I have no idea but you are probably right., if we look at worldwide events events happening at this time.

Blessings.

Well, Jay is not correct, because he has left what the actual Bible Scripture states for the timeline of the end.

Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse that the "great tribulation" will happen at the very end of this present world, just prior to His future 2nd coming. He then also showed in that same Olivet discourse that His coming to gather His saints would be AFTER... that "tribulation". Thus it is impossible for the tribulation to have begun in the past, and it is also impossible for the tribulation to happen a 1,000 years in our future.

Furthermore, Jesus showed in Revelation 20 that at His future return, Satan is right then locked in his pit prison so he cannot tempt the nations during His future 1,000 years reign. And only after the 1,000 years will Satan be loosed one final time to go tempt the nations, which is when God's fire will destroy Satan and those with him who will try to come up against "the camp of the saints" (Jerusalem on earth where Christ and His reign from).

This is all clearly written in God's Word, so there's no excuse for those who try to twist it like Jay has done.

 

[HealthyShape]

Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse that the "great tribulation" will happen at the very end of this present world, just prior to His future 2nd coming.

1. Not at the end of the world, but at the end of the previous age.

2. Not at the end of this present age, but in the 1st century generation:

"You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?...The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
Lk 3:7-9

Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,
from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
Lk 11:50-51

"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Mt 16:26-27

"Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:34

 

[CTK]

The above is in error, simply because the Daniel 9:26 verse says Messiah would be "cut off" after the 62 and 7 weeks (the 7 weeks come from verse 25).

62 plus 7 equals 69 weeks, not 70.

What is in error? That the Messiah arrived on the first day of the 70th week to be baptized in the Jordan to begin His ministry? Or that He was “cut off” in the midst of the week (which of course could only take place within the last 7 years of the prophecy)?

 

[ProverbsInPink]

Contrary to popular belief, the Great Tribulation is not something that will happen in the future. It began in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and continues to this very day.

Here is the famous verse:



Since context is important for determining the precise timing, it is always a good idea to review the surrounding verses:



Matthew 24:15 is where most stumble. No effort is made to properly unpack the rich amount of information contained within the verse. Let us break it down.

See
The first mistake most folks make is interpreting the word 'see' as 'seeing physically with the eyes'. We now go to the original Greek:

Strong's Greek 3708: horaó
Properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

Strong's Greek: 3708. ὁράω (horaó) -- To see, perceive, attend to

As we can 'see', there is more than one meaning. So how do we know which meaning is intended? Thankfully, the Holy Spirit gave us the answer right in the verse itself.

let him understand
The instructions are clear. We are to interpret the word 'see' as well as the entire verse itself, through the lens of understanding. In other words, with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

So, what is it that the reader is to understand?

abomination of desolation
The Abomination of Desolation was the Crucifixion that ultimately led to the desolation, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. This was prophesied many times in the Old Testament, especially in the Book of Daniel. Therefore, the reader of Daniel was to understand what the Abomination of Desolation was and when it was to occur.

View attachment 69121​

All of the dates were precisely laid out ahead of time. Anyone living in Daniel's time, that had a good grasp of their ancient manuscripts, could have easily deciphered it.

Simply put, when the reader 'saw' as in spiritually understood the meaning of the Abomination of Desolation, they would know that when the Crucifixion occurred, they would have roughly forty-five years to move away from Jerusalem before her desolation. The following verses make it absolutely clear that the desolation was to occur in Judea:



God was kind enough to give the residents plenty of time to start their lives over.

And here we are, thousands of years later after the Great Tribulation began. The only thing left for the world to experience is the Man of Sin to be revealed at end of the world:



Again, the phrase 'those days' is referring to the period of time from 70AD to a yet future end point. There is no coming Great Tribulation. We are in it! Many verses attest to this:



Tribulation has been happening all along. And as a believer in the Harpazo, I would also include a Rapture event coming before the sun is darkened, etc.

The great irony in all of this is that both sides are technically correct. The Harpazo does come after the Great Tribulation *AND YET* the next event that is coming is the Harpazo itself because we are already in the Great Tribulation. Everyone wins... almost.

That's likely a posited pov that can be debated till the cows come home.

However,with the way this world is fast degenerating into avarice,violence and vice, I can agree a case can be made for your premise.

I feel only God really knows.
Stay in faith.

 

[Taken]

The Great Tribulation Began in 70AD and Continues to This Very Day

Nah!

For Centuries mankind has Experienced…

Tribulations of man against man;
Trespassing of man against man;
Stubbornness of men against The Lord God;
Powerful fallen angels influencing weak men;
Discoveries of Good, used for Evil;
Power Positions used for Good and Evil;

AND

Routine Glimpses, Reminders, Warnings of Gods Power and Authority to: (in an INSTANT…)
Destroy The Earth with the Earth…
A Lightening Strike;
A Tide Wave;
A Flood;
A Famine;
A Plague;
An Earthquake;
A Black cloud, the Moon blocking the Sun;
A Fire;
A Sink Hole;
On and on (random places) Glimpses, of Gods Power to come Down from Heaven upon the unrighteousness of the Face of the Whole Earth.

Matt 24:
[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Are ALL Nations Against Jesus?

If not… then sorrows have not Begun.
If Sorrows have not Begun… Matt 24:8
Then the Great Trib has not Begun.



Glory to God,
Taken

 

[soberxp]

.

Matt 24:
[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Are ALL Nations Against Jesus?

If not… then sorrows have not Begun.
If Sorrows have not Begun… Matt 24:8
Then the Great Trib has not Begun.



Glory to God,
Taken

Why not? No nations willing to for the Jesus Christ's sake.

 

[rwb]

Since Satan is a celestial being, what would he be if not one of the angels though?
Satan is not a man, which logically points to an angelic order.
From the beginning were just God, angels and men.

1 Corinthians 4:9
For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.

1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

Scripture speaks of men, angels, God.
And the giants or 'Nephilim' were flesh and blood, so God considers them men no matter what their origins.
I just happen to think they are the evil spirits, and when they died in the flood, God left them free to roam as evil spirits to test mankind.
They seek to possess a body having lost their own, and have influence in this world.

And they also appeared again.
But there are no more 'Nephilim' today, apparently God stopped the giants from being able to return again, so far.

OG was one of the last of the giants, he was Rephaim, and king of the Amorites.

Deuteronomy 3

“Then we turned and went up the road to Bashan; and Og king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei. 2 And the Lord said to me, ‘Do not fear him, for I have delivered him and all his people and his land into your hand; you shall do to him as you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who dwelt at Heshbon.’

3 “So the Lord our God also delivered into our hands Og king of Bashan, with all his people, and we [a]attacked him until he had no survivors remaining. 4 And we took all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we did not take from them: sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls, gates, and bars, besides a great many rural towns. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children of every city. 7 But all the livestock and the spoil of the cities we took as booty for ourselves.

8 “And at that time we took the land from the hand of the two kings of the Amorites who were on this side of the Jordan, from the River Arnon to Mount Hermon 9 (the Sidonians call Hermon Sirion, and the Amorites call it Senir), 10 all the cities of the plain, all Gilead, and all Bashan, as far as Salcah and Edrei, cities of the kingdom of Og in Bashan.

11 “For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of the [b]giants. Indeed his bedstead was an iron bedstead. (Is it not in Rabbah of the people of Ammon?) Nine cubits is its length and four cubits its width, according to the standard cubit.

1. Deuteronomy 3:11 Heb. Rephaim

How this was stated
In 1 Enoch 15:8–12:




It’s not in the canonical Bible, but it was well-known among early Jews and even quoted in the New Testament (Jude 14–15 quotes Enoch directly).


So, according to that ancient interpretation:

• The giants (Nephilim) were half-divine, half-human.
• When they died in the Flood, their souls were cursed to wander the earth.
• These disembodied souls became the “evil spirits” or “demons” that tempt and possess humans.

---

The New Testament doesn’t explicitly repeat the Enoch story, but some verses seem to echo it:

• Luke 8:30–33: demons beg Jesus not to send them into “the abyss,” recalling how the rebellious angels were imprisoned.
• 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 both mention angels who sinned and were bound in chains, paralleling the “Watchers” in Enoch.
• Matthew 12:43–45: Jesus says unclean spirits “wander through dry places, seeking rest.” That matches the Enochic image of restless, bodyless spirits.

So while the canonical Bible doesn’t say outright that the Nephilim’s spirits became demons, that idea was clearly present in Second Temple Jewish theology, and the New Testament authors knew and echoed it.

Fun to contemplate, and the early church believed things like this for hundreds of years.

Good morning Scott,

In the effort of being briefer, I will make just one point.

This point of view seems to be more mythological than biblical. I say this because when a human dies, the spirit in them (breath of life) returns to God in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 (KJV) All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Numbers 16:22 (KJV) And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Acts 7:59 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

 

[Scott Downey]

Good morning Scott,

In the effort of being briefer, I will make just one point.

This point of view seems to be more mythological than biblical. I say this because when a human dies, the spirit in them (breath of life) returns to God in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 (KJV) All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Numbers 16:22 (KJV) And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Acts 7:59 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Yes, I am not saying it is clearly declared in the bible

The spirit returns to God who made it, maybe for the judgment and perdition of the wicked, cause after that it is permanently separated from the prescense of God, having their lot in the lake that burn with fire and brimstone, and into outer darkness away from the Light of Christ.

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

1. Matthew 8:12
   But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Matthew 22:13
   Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Matthew 25:30
   And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[LoveYeshua]

Well, Jay is not correct, because he has left what the actual Bible Scripture states for the timeline of the end.

Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse that the "great tribulation" will happen at the very end of this present world, just prior to His future 2nd coming. He then also showed in that same Olivet discourse that His coming to gather His saints would be AFTER... that "tribulation". Thus it is impossible for the tribulation to have begun in the past, and it is also impossible for the tribulation to happen a 1,000 years in our future.

Furthermore, Jesus showed in Revelation 20 that at His future return, Satan is right then locked in his pit prison so he cannot tempt the nations during His future 1,000 years reign. And only after the 1,000 years will Satan be loosed one final time to go tempt the nations, which is when God's fire will destroy Satan and those with him who will try to come up against "the camp of the saints" (Jerusalem on earth where Christ and His reign from).

This is all clearly written in God's Word, so there's no excuse for those who try to twist it like Jay has done.

yes you are right, i probably did not read it correctly, Jay is not often mistaken, he was maybe refering to the troubles post millenium but I am not certain, as for the dates ( years he mentioned, no one knows precisely but we can have a range. In my case with what I saw we are in what is called Jacobs trouble, within this generation, tribulation is coming out way, the signs are multiplying and are clear.

Blessings

 

[rwb]

Yes, I am not saying it is clearly declared in the bible

The spirit returns to God who made it, maybe for the judgment and perdition of the wicked, cause after that it is permanently separated from the prescense of God, having their lot in the lake that burn with fire and brimstone, and into outer darkness away from the Light of Christ.

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

1. Matthew 8:12
   But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Matthew 22:13
   Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Matthew 25:30
   And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Ok, I think I understand the point you seem to be making.

All who are of the wicked one (devil) shall be cast into outer darkness when Christ comes again. It's depicting Judgment Day, when them which do iniquity shall be cast into a furnace of fire, that is the lake of fire.

Matthew 13:38-43 (KJV) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I don't find verses or passages to prove the spirits of humans who have physically died returning to earth as demonic spirits that inflict evil upon man. The evil afflicted on mankind who have evil spirit/spirits ruling over their hearts and minds, do their bidding in this life before man breathes their last.

 

[Scott Downey]

Ok, I think I understand the point you seem to be making.

All who are of the wicked one (devil) shall be cast into outer darkness when Christ comes again. It's depicting Judgment Day, when them which do iniquity shall be cast into a furnace of fire, that is the lake of fire.

Matthew 13:38-43 (KJV) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I don't find verses or passages to prove the spirits of humans who have physically died returning to earth as demonic spirits that inflict evil upon man. The evil afflicted on mankind who have evil spirit/spirits ruling over their hearts and minds, do their bidding in this life before man breathes their last.

Of course not. But it was the general belief of the general church for about 500 years.
It is not something that is hard doctrine, but also we do not know everything do we....

 

[Scott Downey]

KJ21
For if God spared not the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment;
ASV
For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
AMP
For if God did not [even] spare angels that sinned, but threw them into hell and sent them to pits of gloom to be kept [there] for judgment;
AMPC
For God did not [even] spare angels that sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them to be kept there in pits of gloom till the judgment and their doom.
BRG
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
CSB
For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but cast them into hell and delivered them in chains of utter darkness to be kept for judgment;
CSBA
For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but cast them into hell and delivered them in chains of utter darkness to be kept for judgement;
CEB
God didn’t spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into the lowest level of the underworld and committed them to chains of darkness, keeping them there until the judgment.
CJB
For God did not spare the angels who sinned; on the contrary, he put them in gloomy dungeons lower than Sh’ol to be held for judgment.
CEV
God did not have pity on the angels that sinned. He had them tied up and thrown into the dark pits of hell until the time of judgment.
DARBY
For if God spared not [the] angels who had sinned, but having cast them down to the deepest pit of gloom has delivered them to chains of darkness [to be] kept for judgment;
DLNT
For if God did not spare angels having sinned but handed-them-over to chains of gloom, having cast-them-into-hell, being reserved for judgment;
DRA
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment:
ERV
When angels sinned, God did not let them go free without punishment. He sent them to hell. He put those angels in caves of darkness, where they are being held until the time when God will judge them.
EASY
God even punished the angels who refused to obey him. He threw them down into the deep hole of hell. He tied them up and he kept them in that completely dark place. They will remain there until the day when God will judge them.
EHV
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned but handed them over to chains of darkness by casting them into hell, to be kept under guard for judgment;
ESV
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
ESVUK
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgement;
EXB
[L For if] When angels sinned, God did not ·let them go free without punishment [spare them]. [L But] He sent them to ·hell [L Tartarus; C a Greek term for the underworld] and put them in caves of darkness where they are being held for judgment [Gen. 6:1–4; Jude 6].
GNV
For if God spared not the Angels that had sinned, but cast them down into hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be kept unto damnation:
GW
God didn’t spare angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, where he has secured them with chains of darkness and is holding them for judgment.
GNT
God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment.
HCSB
For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment;
ICB
When angels sinned, God did not let them go free without punishment. God sent them to hell and put them in caves of darkness. They are being held there to be judged.
ISV
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into the lowest hell and imprisoned them in chains of deepest darkness, holding them for judgment;
PHILLIPS
But even in those days there were false prophets, just as there will be false teachers among you today. They will be men who will subtly introduce dangerous heresies. They will thereby deny the Lord who redeemed them, and it will not be long before they bring on themselves their own downfall. Many will follow their pernicious teaching and thereby bring discredit on the way of truth. In their lust to make converts these men will try to exploit you too with their bogus arguments. But judgment has been for some time hard on their heels and their downfall is inevitable. For if God did not spare angels who sinned against him, but banished them to the dark imprisonment of hell till judgment day: if he did not spare the ancient world but only saved Noah (the solitary voice that cried out for righteousness) and his seven companions when he brought the flood upon the world in its wickedness; and if God reduced the entire cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes (when he sentenced them to destruction as a fearful example to those who wanted to live in defiance of his laws), and yet saved Lot the righteous man, in acute mental distress at the filthy lives of the godless—Lot, remember, was a good man suffering spiritual agonies day after day at what he saw and heard of their lawlessness—then you may be absolutely certain that the Lord knows how to rescue a good man surrounded by temptation, and how to reserve his punishment for the wicked until his day comes.
JUB
For if God did not forgive the angels that sinned, but cast them down into the deepest abyss {Gr. Tartarus} and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

 

[Scott Downey]

KJV
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
AKJV
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
LSB
For if God did not spare angels who sinned, but cast them into the pit and delivered them to chains of darkness, being kept for judgment;
LEB
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment,
TLB
For God did not spare even the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, chained in gloomy caves and darkness until the judgment day.
MSG
God didn’t let the rebel angels off the hook, but jailed them in hell till Judgment Day. Neither did he let the ancient ungodly world off. He wiped it out with a flood, rescuing only eight people—Noah, the sole voice of righteousness, was one of them.
MEV
For if God did not spare the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness to be kept for judgment;
MOUNCE
For if · God did not spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into hell, committing them to chains of utter darkness, there to be kept until the judgment;
NOG
God didn’t spare angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, where he has secured them with chains of darkness and is holding them for judgment.
NABRE
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment;
NASB
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, held for judgment;
NASB1995
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
NCB
For God did not spare the angels who sinned, but he cast them into the dark abyss to be chained, where they are being held until the judgment.
NCV
When angels sinned, God did not let them go free without punishment. He sent them to hell and put them in caves of darkness where they are being held for judgment.
NET
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment,
NIRV
God did not spare angels when they sinned. Instead, he sent them to hell. He chained them up in dark prisons. He will keep them there until he judges them.
NIV
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
NIVUK
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
NKJV
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
NLV
God did not hold back from punishing the angels who sinned, but sent them down to hell. They are to be kept there in the deep hole of darkness until they stand before Him Who judges them.
NLT
For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment.
NMB
For God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down into hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be kept until the judgment.
NRSVA
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgement;
NRSVACE
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgement;
NRSVCE
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment;
NRSVUE
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment;
NTFE
God didn’t spare the angels who sinned, you see, but he threw them into the pit, into dark caverns, handing them over to be guarded until the time of judgment.
OJB
For if Hashem did not spare malachim that sinned, but cast them into Gehinnom, consigning them to the sharsherot (chains) of choshech to be kept for Mishpat;
RGT
For if God did not spare the angels who had sinned, but cast them down into Hell and delivered them into chains of darkness (to be kept for damnation);
RSV
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;
RSVCE
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;
TLV
For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into Sheol. He put them in chains of gloomy darkness, to be held until the judgment.
VOICE
For God did not spare the heavenly beings who sinned, but He cast them into the dark pits of hell to be kept until the time of judgment;
WEB
For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;
WE
God punished the angels who did wrong. He put them into the darkest part of hell. They must be kept there until the time when they will be judged.
WYC
For if God spared not angels sinning, but betook them to be tormented, and to be drawn down with bonds of hell into hell [but betook them to be tormented, drawn down with bonds of hell into hell], to be kept into doom;
YLT
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Peter 2:4 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

The above is every version of 2 Peter 2:4
All the versions say that God cast the angels who sinned into hell or Tartarus.
But some don't believe this actually happened!

In my reading it is clear what is being taught here, they are in Hell right now.
They are bound in Hell, chained there to await judgement DAY, meaning they are not free to leave hell and roam the world and cause trouble. God knows how to chain up a spirit so it is confined in Hell.