WHY JESUS AND THE TWELVE APOSTLES DID NOT PREACH THE CROSS

[Davy]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
I hate to say it, but most preachers today are on men's traditions and don't really study all their Bible. That's one of the main reasons why they don't understand that The Gospel of Jesus Christ was... revealed to Abraham.

With Paul showing in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 that The Gospel was indeed preached first to Abraham, and that Abraham's FAITH is the SAME FAITH all those in Christ after him have, then that should... reveal to Hyper-Dispensationalists that not everyone back in the Old Testament days were dumb about The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Then Dispensationalists try to bring up the fact that Jesus' name is nowhere found in The Old Testament Books, and that The Gospel can't be found in it. Yet they are totally unaware that David, himself a prophet, was given to prophesy about events of Christ's crucifixion that wouldn't happen until about a thousand years later (see Psalms 22). And same with Isaiah 53 which contains events of Christ's crucifixion. It doesn't mention the name Jesus Christ there, but does one really need to hear the name Jesus when those events are described today? Those of us today automatically know those events were about Lord Jesus' crucifixion.

So did God not have a remnant that knew about The Gospel? Yes, and Abraham was one. Who hasn't ever read Jude 14-15?

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
KJV

That above prophecy is about Christ's future 2nd coming at the end of this present world! How did Enoch know about that in his day unless God had shown him? And that is NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURE!

GOD'S BIRTHRIGHT:
One of the ideas in God's written Word that those in Christ should be aware of is God's Birthright. The idea of a birthright is about the blessings of the father to his eldest son. The birthright includes what was the father's, most often inheriting it all. But our Heavenly Father Himself has a BIRTHRIGHT that contains blessings that are beyond... what a flesh father can give...

Abraham was actually the 1st example.
1. blessing of a seed as many as the stars and sands of the sea.
2. blessing of plenty corn and wine, the best lands and resources.
3. blessing of controlling the gates of one's enemies (strongest military).
4. blessing of the 'care' of The Gospel of Jesus Christ (YES! God put His chosen ones in care of The Gospel prior to and after Jesus' 1st coming).
5. blessing of inheritance of the lands from Egypt to the river Euphrates.
6. blessing that there would always be one of David's seed to sit upon his throne until all generations, ON EARTH. (Throne still is on this earth to this day with one of the house of David sitting upon it, and it is NOT Lord Jesus. Only when He returns will He sit upon it.)

Abraham's flesh father Terah couldn't give Abraham those BIRTHRIGHT BLESSINGS. Only GOD Himself could, and did.

Then those Blessings were passed from Abraham to his son Isaac. God spoke to Isaac in transferring those blessings.

Then those Blessings were passed from Isaac to his son Jacob. Christ Himself appeared to Jacob as the Angel of The Lord and wrestled with Jacob. Then Jacob would not let Him go until He blessed him. The LORD told Jacob that he would no longer be called Jacob, but that ISRAEL was his new name, because as a prince he had prevailed with God. Yet Jacob was still called Jacob later in Old Testament Scripture, which should be noted, because it points to the name ISRAEL pointing to a specific BLESSING. And it ain't what the orthodox Jews think it is either.

The name ISRAEL is GOD's naming for His overcomers in Him through FAITH on His Son Jesus Christ. This is why Lord Jesus will be "King of Israel" when He returns, not 'King of The Church' as a label. So many preachers today are still on the old traditional hatred against the unbelieving Jews for having killed Lord Jesus, that they cannot see the weightier matters revealed in God's written Word. This also why Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 labeled Christ's Church as "the commonwealth of Israel", which means a joining of nations together as one body (Church) under Jesus Christ, the very blessing of Abraham's FAITH.

Jacob anointed the stone he had made for his pillow because of God speaking to him in his dream and blessing him, and Jacob called pillar stone Bethel, which means 'house of God'. That pillar stone would travel with the children of Israel through the wilderness into the holy land, and believe it or not, still exists in a certain place to this day.

For this reason, God's Birthright to His chosen ones, He would be called "the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and and the God of Jacob."

But transfer of God's Birthright among His early chosen ones didn't end there with Jacob. God's Birthright was to go to Jacob's elder son Reuben, but he profaned his father's bed by sleeping with one of Jacob's concubines. So the Birthright went to Jacob's son Joseph. But Judah would keep the Birthright part of king line (1 Chronicles 5).

Then per Genesis 48, Joseph would bring his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh (elder) in unto Jacob on his deathbed for a blessing. Jacob crossed his hands and placed his right hand on the top of younger Ephraim on his left, and his right hand on Manasseh on the right. Joseph tried to correct Jacob's hands, but Jacob said he knew, but that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations", the same blessing Jacob received in Genesis 35 that his seed would become "a company of nations". That prophecy is directly related to The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And that is where the transfer of God's Birthright ended per Bible Scripture. That means God's Birthright is still... upon the head of Ephraim to this day. And also to this day, there is still to be one of the lineage of David sitting upon his earthly throne, which is the part of God's Birthright to Judah. This is where understanding prophecy in God's Word about the scattered ten tribes of Israel comes in. The ten tribes have become LOST to the Jews, and to the world. But God knows where they are today, and who they are today. Likewise He has shown His remnant also. They would primarily be scattered to Asia Minor and Europe, and would form the early Western Christian nations under Jesus Christ. And from there they would take The Gospel as ambassadors to the rest of the nations.

When God split old Israel in Solomon's day, He gave one of the tribe of Ephraim to be "king of Israel" over the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel". (1 Kings 11). That was an early pointer to His prophecy that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" in The Gospel of Jesus Christ later in history.

At the same time, God promised He would always leave "one tribe" at Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake. That one tribe would be the tribe of Judah. And then the tribes of Benjamin and Levi would also join with Judah at Jerusalem-Judea and become the southern "kingdom of Judah" also known as the JEWS. That is who today's nation of Jews in the nation called Israel today in the holy land represents. It is only a small portion of Israelites, and most of them still reject Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Doug]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
I hate to say it, but most preachers today are on men's traditions and don't really study all their Bible. That's one of the main reasons why they don't understand that The Gospel of Jesus Christ was... revealed to Abraham.

With Paul showing in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 that The Gospel was indeed preached first to Abraham, and that Abraham's FAITH is the SAME FAITH all those in Christ after him have, then that should... reveal to Hyper-Dispensationalists that not everyone back in the Old Testament days were dumb about The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Then Dispensationalists try to bring up the fact that Jesus' name is nowhere found in The Old Testament Books, and that The Gospel can't be found in it. Yet they are totally unaware that David, himself a prophet, was given to prophesy about events of Christ's crucifixion that wouldn't happen until about a thousand years later (see Psalms 22). And same with Isaiah 53 which contains events of Christ's crucifixion. It doesn't mention the name Jesus Christ there, but does one really need to hear the name Jesus when those events are described today? Those of us today automatically know those events were about Lord Jesus' crucifixion.

So did God not have a remnant that knew about The Gospel? Yes, and Abraham was one. Who hasn't ever read Jude 14-15?

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
KJV

That above prophecy is about Christ's future 2nd coming at the end of this present world! How did Enoch know about that in his day unless God had shown him? And that is NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURE!

GOD'S BIRTHRIGHT:
One of the ideas in God's written Word that those in Christ should be aware of is God's Birthright. The idea of a birthright is about the blessings of the father to his eldest son. The birthright includes what was the father's, most often inheriting it all. But our Heavenly Father Himself has a BIRTHRIGHT that contains blessings that are beyond... what a flesh father can give...

Abraham was actually the 1st example.
1. blessing of a seed as many as the stars and sands of the sea.
2. blessing of plenty corn and wine, the best lands and resources.
3. blessing of controlling the gates of one's enemies (strongest military).
4. blessing of the 'care' of The Gospel of Jesus Christ (YES! God put His chosen ones in care of The Gospel prior to and after Jesus' 1st coming).
5. blessing of inheritance of the lands from Egypt to the river Euphrates.
6. blessing that there would always be one of David's seed to sit upon his throne until all generations, ON EARTH. (Throne still is on this earth to this day with one of the house of David sitting upon it, and it is NOT Lord Jesus. Only when He returns will He sit upon it.)

Abraham's flesh father Terah couldn't give Abraham those BIRTHRIGHT BLESSINGS. Only GOD Himself could, and did.

Then those Blessings were passed from Abraham to his son Isaac. God spoke to Isaac in transferring those blessings.

Then those Blessings were passed from Isaac to his son Jacob. Christ Himself appeared to Jacob as the Angel of The Lord and wrestled with Jacob. Then Jacob would not let Him go until He blessed him. The LORD told Jacob that he would no longer be called Jacob, but that ISRAEL was his new name, because as a prince he had prevailed with God. Yet Jacob was still called Jacob later in Old Testament Scripture, which should be noted, because it points to the name ISRAEL pointing to a specific BLESSING. And it ain't what the orthodox Jews think it is either.

The name ISRAEL is GOD's naming for His overcomers in Him through FAITH on His Son Jesus Christ. This is why Lord Jesus will be "King of Israel" when He returns, not 'King of The Church' as a label. So many preachers today are still on the old traditional hatred against the unbelieving Jews for having killed Lord Jesus, that they cannot see the weightier matters revealed in God's written Word. This also why Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 labeled Christ's Church as "the commonwealth of Israel", which means a joining of nations together as one body (Church) under Jesus Christ, the very blessing of Abraham's FAITH.

Jacob anointed the stone he had made for his pillow because of God speaking to him in his dream and blessing him, and Jacob called pillar stone Bethel, which means 'house of God'. That pillar stone would travel with the children of Israel through the wilderness into the holy land, and believe it or not, still exists in a certain place to this day.

For this reason, God's Birthright to His chosen ones, He would be called "the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and and the God of Jacob."

But transfer of God's Birthright among His early chosen ones didn't end there with Jacob. God's Birthright was to go to Jacob's elder son Reuben, but he profaned his father's bed by sleeping with one of Jacob's concubines. So the Birthright went to Jacob's son Joseph. But Judah would keep the Birthright part of king line (1 Chronicles 5).

Then per Genesis 48, Joseph would bring his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh (elder) in unto Jacob on his deathbed for a blessing. Jacob crossed his hands and placed his right hand on the top of younger Ephraim on his left, and his right hand on Manasseh on the right. Joseph tried to correct Jacob's hands, but Jacob said he knew, but that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations", the same blessing Jacob received in Genesis 35 that his seed would become "a company of nations". That prophecy is directly related to The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And that is where the transfer of God's Birthright ended per Bible Scripture. That means God's Birthright is still... upon the head of Ephraim to this day. And also to this day, there is still to be one of the lineage of David sitting upon his earthly throne, which is the part of God's Birthright to Judah. This is where understanding prophecy in God's Word about the scattered ten tribes of Israel comes in. The ten tribes have become LOST to the Jews, and to the world. But God knows where they are today, and who they are today. Likewise He has shown His remnant also. They would primarily be scattered to Asia Minor and Europe, and would form the early Western Christian nations under Jesus Christ. And from there they would take The Gospel as ambassadors to the rest of the nations.

When God split old Israel in Solomon's day, He gave one of the tribe of Ephraim to be "king of Israel" over the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel". (1 Kings 11). That was an early pointer to His prophecy that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" in The Gospel of Jesus Christ later in history.

At the same time, God promised He would always leave "one tribe" at Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake. That one tribe would be the tribe of Judah. And then the tribes of Benjamin and Levi would also join with Judah at Jerusalem-Judea and become the southern "kingdom of Judah" also known as the JEWS. That is who today's nation of Jews in the nation called Israel today in the holy land represents. It is only a small portion of Israelites, and most of them still reject Lord Jesus Christ.

Abraham could not have been given the gospel of Christ since it was a mystery not revealed until revealed to Paul.

Paul's gospel was according to the revelation of the mystery............................[Rom 16:25 KJV] 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[Eph 6:19 KJV] 19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

 

[Davy]

Peter preached the gospel of the kingdom and the name of Jesus. Not the same gospel as Paul is it?

There you go again with that FALSE DISPENSATIONALIST CRUD, trying to SPLIT The Gospel of Jesus Christ APART when God's Word does no such thing.

Could Lord Jesus and His Apostles preach the coming death and resurrection of Jesus before it happened? Jesus told His Apostles, but they didn't yet understand (Luke 18:31-33).

But the preaching of the kingdom IS PART OF THE GOSPEL TOO. Christ's death and resurrection is how the Gospel of the Kingdom was confirmed, for by His death and resurrection the devil was defeated (Hebrews 2:14).

How is it that you claim to believe on Jesus Christ, yet you only see The Gospel as being about Christ's death on the cross? How can you disconnect all the Old Testament prophecies about the coming of Christ and God's Blessings as a result per God's Plan of Salvation from The Gospel?

The gospel preached to Abraham was that in him shall all nations be blessed NOT the gospel of Christ. It says it in the verse. You are making scripture say what you want it to say and not what it says

Nah... you simply choose to NOT LISTEN TO APOSTLE PAUL in Galatians 3. I'm only repeating what Paul himself said...

Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, "In thee shall all nations be blessed."
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV

Paul's subject is about FAITH in the Promise given Abraham, which Abraham believed, and Abraham's FAITH was thus counted as righteousness. It is about God's saving Grace, the remission of sins, because Paul also explains in that Galatians 3 Chapter that the law cannot save.

That means... when you TRY to relegate Abraham's FAITH as being about something other than The Gospel, then it means you are saying Abraham's FAITH in Salvation was towards the law! That of course is absurd, but that is the idea you default to by denying Abraham's FAITH as being the same FAITH on The Gospel as ours.


Gal 3:13-14
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, 'Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:'

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
KJV

The above verse Paul emphatically... defines just which FAITH he is talking about that Abraham had. It is "the promise of the Spirit through faith". In your New Testament Scripture, what did Lord Jesus teach about having FAITH on Him and being baptized in His Name? He Promised the believer who did that would receive The Holy Spirit! That is... that "promise of the Spirit through faith". And Paul CALLS THAT "THE BLESSING OF ABRAHAM"! Got it? It is a DIRECT pointer to Abraham's FAITH being about the same PROMISE BY FAITH that all those in Christ have believed!


Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Those charlatans you listen to even REJECT WHAT LORD JESUS SAID ABOUT THIS to the blind Pharisees...

John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.

What do you think Lord Jesus meant when He said that Abraham saw His day, and was glad? Abraham's FAITH involved The Gospel of Jesus Christ, that is what Jesus showed there.

But some Biblically illiterate might say along with those blind Pharisees, "well Jesus wasn't even born yet back in Abraham's day, so how could Abraham see Christ's day?"

57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
KJV

Then Jesus showed that He was there back in the Old Testament days WITH Abraham!

And per Genesis 14, Jesus as the Melchizedek offered Abraham "bread and wine". Paul in Hebrews 7 revealed that Jesus was that Melchizekek Who met Abraham.

And YOU and your CHARLATAN DOCTRINES OF MEN FOLLOWERS want to claim Jesus did not exist back then, and wasn't able to meet with Abraham and reveal The Gospel to him? That stupidity is exactly what men's doctrines do, when they can't understand God's Word, they try to put tethers on it, to make sure no one else understands either, a working just like the blind Pharisees.

 

[Davy]

Abraham could not have been given the gospel of Christ since it was a mystery not revealed until revealed to Paul.

Paul's gospel was according to the revelation of the mystery............................[Rom 16:25 KJV] 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[Eph 6:19 KJV] 19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

When you read what Peter said in Acts 10 & 11, then it shows Peter was actually first to be shown by God and realize the 'mystery', and not by Paul...

Acts 10:28
28 And he said unto them, "Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."
KJV

The blanket of unclean animals God told Peter to take represent the Gentiles, showing Peter was not to call the Gentiles unclean.

Peter is then gathered around Gentiles, preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ to them...

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
KJV

Peter speaking to his brethren Jews at Jerusalem, about the conversion of Gentiles to Christ by Peter's preaching to them...

Acts 11:15-18
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as He did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."
KJV

Now that happened with Peter before Paul's ministry even got going!

 

[Doug]

When you read what Peter said in Acts 10 & 11, then it shows Peter was actually first to be shown by God and realize the 'mystery', and not by Paul...

This is what Peter preached for salvation................................[Act 10:43 KJV] 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins..................forgiveness of sins thru his name NOT the blood.....................[Eph 1:7 KJV] 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Care to give me a few I could be wrong

Already did, go back and look

 

[Davy]

This is what Peter preached for salvation................................[Act 10:43 KJV] 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins..................forgiveness of sins thru his name NOT the blood.....................[Eph 1:7 KJV] 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

You are only straining at a gnat, because Peter of course included the idea of Christ's crucifixion, which automatically includes Christ's Blood shed upon the cross for the remission of sins.

Just any ole' thing you can do to try and sway the Scripture towards the FALSE doctrine of men you follow.

 

[Doug]

You are only straining at a gnat, because Peter of course included the idea of Christ's crucifixion, which automatically includes Christ's Blood shed upon the cross for the remission of sins.

Just any ole' thing you can do to try and sway the Scripture towards the FALSE doctrine of men you follow.

I dont think proclaiming the blood is straining at a gnat and neither is upholding scripture.
You are creating your own scripture, one that says the blood of the cross can be found in what Peter said, but he didn't say it. He didnt say it, but the idea of it is there. You are making scripture say something it doesn't to fit your doctrine and the doctrine of other men.

 

[Davy]

I dont think proclaiming the blood is straining at a gnat and neither is upholding scripture.

You are not upholding Bible Scripture, you are trying to butcher it with trying to making it say something it is not, or that is, the men you have believed on do that and you follow them.

 

[Fred J]

In the Gospel the 'cross' is Roman's invention and where they crucify criminals.

It's a public affair done openly and gruesomely by the Romans as an example and warning to others.

What's the point preaching about a wooden cross where criminals are nailed and hung in punishment by the Romans?

And where to the Jews and by the Law, those who hang on a tree, as relating to the cross as well made from a tree, are 'cursed'?

But rather preach the Gospel, what happened leading up to the cross and after precisely which makes up,

"It is finished."

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

You are not upholding Bible Scripture, you are trying to butcher it with trying to making it say something it is not, or that is, the men you have believed on do that and you follow them.

This is very 'funny', in a humble way, well done Davy, and no harm done to 'Doug', just a gentle annoying correction.

'Doug' please find another profession, how about from a not so doing well 'butcher' to a 'fishmonger'?

That relates better for the calling of making you. 'fisher of men', but the prohibition is, now you're not allowed to 'butcher' the fish but rather 'clean' and 'cut' only.

'Doug', jokes aside and it's not on you but your fruit, for you're reading the scripture and merely gaining understanding, picturing and reasoning based on out of context.

Apparently as i also started out the same way, they do contradict from one another and confusing at first.

As a 'lamb' i too 'annoyed' many sheep who tried to help me 'see' what they 'see'.

But i had to read the context of the scripture again and again until the context bit by bit fit the 'puzzle' have been struggling with.

Did take years, but the FATHER, Son and the Holy Ghost, and the anointing placed in me helped a lot, if not i would have given up.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Davy]

This is very 'funny', in a humble way, well done Davy, and no harm done to 'Doug', just a gentle annoying correction.

'Doug' please find another profession, how about from a not so doing well 'butcher' to a 'fishmonger'?

That relates better for the calling of making you. 'fisher of men', but the prohibition is, now you're not allowed 'butcher' the fish but 'clean' and 'cut' only.

'Doug', jokes aside and it's not on you but your fruit, for you're reading the scripture and merely gaining understanding, picturing and reasoning based on out of context.

Apparently as i also started out the same way, they do contradict from one another and confusing at first.

As a 'lamb' i too 'annoyed' many sheep who tried to help me 'see' what they 'see'.

But i had to read the context of the scripture again and again until the context bit by bit fit the 'puzzle' have been struggling with.

Did take years, but the FATHER, Son and the Holy Ghost, and the anointing placed in me helped a lot, if not i would have given up.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

Well, the problem Doug is having is one that many brethren fall into, with wrongly following mens doctrines instead of understanding the actual Bible Scripture flow line upon line, chapter by chapter. Very, very few Churches today actually teach Bible line upon line, but do topical presentations instead with a lot of attempting to paraphrase in their own words.

Man's methods of public education crept into doing Bible study, which are not all wrong, but do have a tendency to limit the scope of understanding, and create bottle traditions. A disciple of Christ must overcome that and stay in His Word as written.

 

[Doug]

Well, the problem Doug is having is one that many brethren fall into, with wrongly following mens doctrines

[Eph 4:11 KJV] 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

I dont get why one would denigrate teachers when God gave them for the church

 

[Davy]

[Eph 4:11 KJV] 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

I dont get why one would denigrate teachers when God gave them for the church

God did not give us all teachers in the Church. Apostle John said to try the spirits, to see if they were of God or not. That means God allows us to be tested. The New Testament Epistles by Paul, Peter, and John all warn us about false ones that creep in. Paul said he warned the brethren night and day with tears (Acts 20). Jude 4 even warns that certain men crept in unawares were 'ordained' to that condemnation of working against Christ, meaning they present themselves as believers, but in reality are false. Paul showed the same idea in 2 Corinthians 11.

So we have no excuse if we trust a false prophet because we are too lazy to verify in God's written Word for ourselves.

The particular doctrine of man that you have latched onto goes back to the 1800's in Great Britain with John Nelson Darby who first taught the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in a Christian Church. There was an Edward Irving church he attended in that 1830's era which may have been where he first got the doctrine. Darby then took ideas about the various dispensations in God's Word and modified the latter ones to make it fit the Pre-trib Rapture theory.

Then an American, Cyrus Scofield, was commissioned to put together his Scofield Reference Bible that pushed the Pre-trib Rapture, Scofield having been funded by New York bankers and lawyers.

Then later, others on Darby's teachings created the Hyper-Dispensationalist movement in the late 1800's. The excellent British Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger was into that movement, even though he was an excellent Bible scholar. He believed Darby's Pre-trib Rapture idea that began in his era of the 1800's. Then Hyper-Dispensationalism is where all the isolation of Paul's Epistles only for the Church really took off.

And in reality, all those movements are just from men's doctrines stacked on top of another over the years. They have very little to do with the actual written Bible Scripture, because Jesus showed in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His return to gather His saints will be AFTER the tribulation, not prior to it like Darby's false teaching says.

 

[Doug]

So we have no excuse if we trust a false prophet because we are too lazy to verify in God's written Word for ourselves.

Yes we have to check what and how the scriptures are taught by any pastor

 

[Doug]

The particular doctrine of man that you have latched onto goes back to the 1800's in Great Britain with John Nelson Darby who first taught the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in a Christian Church. There was an Edward Irving church he attended in that 1830's era which may have been where he first got the doctrine. Darby then took ideas about the various dispensations in God's Word and modified the latter ones to make it fit the Pre-trib Rapture theory.

I haven't read anything from Darby, but a couple of things...............I am sure he was wrong about some things.............I am sure he was right about others

 

[Doug]

God did not give us all teachers in the Church. Apostle John said to try the spirits, to see if they were of God or not. That means God allows us to be tested. The New Testament Epistles by Paul, Peter, and John all warn us about false ones that creep in. Paul said he warned the brethren night and day with tears (Acts 20). Jude 4 even warns that certain men crept in unawares were 'ordained' to that condemnation of working against Christ, meaning they present themselves as believers, but in reality are false. Paul showed the same idea in 2 Corinthians 11.

So we have no excuse if we trust a false prophet because we are too lazy to verify in God's written Word for ourselves.

The particular doctrine of man that you have latched onto goes back to the 1800's in Great Britain with John Nelson Darby who first taught the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in a Christian Church. There was an Edward Irving church he attended in that 1830's era which may have been where he first got the doctrine. Darby then took ideas about the various dispensations in God's Word and modified the latter ones to make it fit the Pre-trib Rapture theory.

Then an American, Cyrus Scofield, was commissioned to put together his Scofield Reference Bible that pushed the Pre-trib Rapture, Scofield having been funded by New York bankers and lawyers.

Then later, others on Darby's teachings created the Hyper-Dispensationalist movement in the late 1800's. The excellent British Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger was into that movement, even though he was an excellent Bible scholar. He believed Darby's Pre-trib Rapture idea that began in his era of the 1800's. Then Hyper-Dispensationalism is where all the isolation of Paul's Epistles only for the Church really took off.

And in reality, all those movements are just from men's doctrines stacked on top of another over the years. They have very little to do with the actual written Bible Scripture, because Jesus showed in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His return to gather His saints will be AFTER the tribulation, not prior to it like Darby's false teaching says.

All this talk about Darby etc means nothing.
The only consideration is whether or not any teaching by any teacher confirms and can be supported by scripture

 

[Davy]

I haven't read anything from Darby, but a couple of things...............I am sure he was wrong about some things.............I am sure he was right about others

Even Satan correctly quoted Psalms 91:11-12 in Luke 4 when tempting Jesus, EXCEPT for one little added phrase; "lest at any time," which added phrase by Satan has been removed from many English Bible translations (but not from the KJV).

Thus even Christ's enemies know enough of what The Bible says in order to twist its meanings.

 

[Doug]

God did not give us all teachers in the Church. Apostle John said to try the spirits, to see if they were of God or not. That means God allows us to be tested. The New Testament Epistles by Paul, Peter, and John all warn us about false ones that creep in. Paul said he warned the brethren night and day with tears (Acts 20). Jude 4 even warns that certain men crept in unawares were 'ordained' to that condemnation of working against Christ, meaning they present themselves as believers, but in reality are false. Paul showed the same idea in 2 Corinthians 11.

So we have no excuse if we trust a false prophet because we are too lazy to verify in God's written Word for ourselves.

The particular doctrine of man that you have latched onto goes back to the 1800's in Great Britain with John Nelson Darby who first taught the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in a Christian Church. There was an Edward Irving church he attended in that 1830's era which may have been where he first got the doctrine. Darby then took ideas about the various dispensations in God's Word and modified the latter ones to make it fit the Pre-trib Rapture theory.

Then an American, Cyrus Scofield, was commissioned to put together his Scofield Reference Bible that pushed the Pre-trib Rapture, Scofield having been funded by New York bankers and lawyers.

Then later, others on Darby's teachings created the Hyper-Dispensationalist movement in the late 1800's. The excellent British Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger was into that movement, even though he was an excellent Bible scholar. He believed Darby's Pre-trib Rapture idea that began in his era of the 1800's. Then Hyper-Dispensationalism is where all the isolation of Paul's Epistles only for the Church really took off.

And in reality, all those movements are just from men's doctrines stacked on top of another over the years. They have very little to do with the actual written Bible Scripture, because Jesus showed in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His return to gather His saints will be AFTER the tribulation, not prior to it like Darby's false teaching says.

You are creating your own scripture, one that says the blood of the cross can be found in what Peter said, but he didn't say it. He didnt say it, but the idea of it is there. You are making scripture say something it doesn't to fit your doctrine and the doctrine of other men.

I noticed how you just ignored this comment from me

 

[Davy]

All this talk about Darby etc means nothing.

It means a WHOLE LOT, simply because the false Pre-trib Rapture theory which Darby started, and even compiled his study Bible on, has made hundreds of thousands of believers to stop listening to Lord Jesus' and His warning SIGNS He gave the Church for the end of this world. It has instead led them away from preparing for Lord Jesus' future coming, and possibly being deceived by the false-Messiah who comes first.