Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree! All things exist including Satan who has always been evil, through the providence and power of God.

You need to make up your mind about what you believe. In another post you are saying you now believe that evil has always existed, but here you are saying that you believe it came about "through the providence and power of God", which implies that God created evil rather than it having always existed. So, what do you actually believe about this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God tells us He creates darkness & evil. Is the prophet telling us the darkness before creation was created by God? And why does the prophet say that God creates evil? All who are of God are called the light of the world, and the wicked are known as children of the darkness and night, yet both the good and the evil are created in the womb through the providence of God.

Isaiah 45:5-7 (KJV) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

You are misinterpreting this passage. It is literal, physical light being contrasted with literal, physical darkness there. And the KJV poorly translates Isaiah 45:7. Here are better translations of that verse...

Isaiah 45:7 (NIV): I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 (MEV): I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Think about it. Two opposite things are being contrasted in this verse two different times. First, light is contrasted with darkness. Light is the opposite of darkness. Then peace or prosperity is contrasted with something. Is peace or prosperity the opposite of evil? No. Good is the opposite of evil. Peace or prosperity is the opposite of disaster or calamity. God did not create evil. Evil is an act of rebellion against God. How could God create something against Himself? All He created was very good, so He did not create evil. And evil has not always existed, either.

 

[rwb]

You need to make up your mind about what you believe. In another post you are saying you now believe that evil has always existed, but here you are saying that you believe it came about "through the providence and power of God", which implies that God created evil rather than it having always existed. So, what do you actually believe about this?

It's both! Darkness existed before creation. God spoke into the darkness and divided it by His Light. Though it can be proven that darkness is where evil dwells, evil within God's creation did not exist until man disobeyed God and brought sin and death through sin into creation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's both!

How exactly do you think evil came about "through the providence and power of God" if it has always existed and God didn't create it?

Darkness existed before creation.

Where do you get that idea from?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water.

If you claim that darkness existed before creation, then it seems that you would have to conclude the same things about the earth and about water. I don't see any indication here that darkness existed before God created the heavens and the earth.

God spoke into the darkness and divided it by His Light. Though it can be proven that darkness is where evil dwells, evil within God's creation did not exist until man disobeyed God and brought sin and death through sin into creation.

So, your claim is not that the kind of darkness referenced in Genesis 1:1 has always existed, but that darkness in a spiritual sense has always existed? Where does scripture teach this? How is it possible for anything to exist without God creating it or, at least, creating the possibility of it? In my view He did not create evil, but He created the possibility for evil to occur and evil occurs when His creatures disobey Him.

 

[rwb]

Think about it. Two opposite things are being contrasted in this verse two different times. First, light is contrasted with darkness. Light is the opposite of darkness. Then peace or prosperity is contrasted with something. Is peace or prosperity the opposite of evil? No. Good is the opposite of evil. Peace or prosperity is the opposite of disaster or calamity. God did not create evil. Evil is an act of rebellion against God. How could God create something against Himself? All He created was very good, so He did not create evil. And evil has not always existed, either. Judas who became the "son of perdition"

Judas who was ordained an Apostle of Christ became the son of perdition; he began as light but had been foreordained by God to be the guide of them that took Jesus.

Isaiah 45:5-7 (KJV) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I don't need to translation shop. Ps 109:6-19

John 17:12 (KJV) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Acts 1:16-20 (KJV) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

We seek for peace of God, which is contrary to evil where there is no peace.

 

[rwb]

How exactly do you think evil came about "through the providence and power of God" if it has always existed and God didn't create it?

Have you no knowledge of the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Judas who was ordained an Apostle of Christ became the son of perdition; he began as light but had been foreordained by God to be the guide of them that took Jesus.

Scripture does not teach that Judas was foreordained by God to do what he did.

Isaiah 45:5-7 (KJV) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I don't need to translation shop. Ps 109:6-19

Was the Bible written in KJV English or in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek? That verse is not contrasting spiritual light and darkness nor is it contrasting spiritual peace with evil. It's contrasting physical light with physical darkness and is contrasting peace with disaster. If it was meant to be taken in a spiritual context, it would have contrasted good with evil, not peace.

What are you intending to say by referencing Psalm 109:6-19?

John 17:12 (KJV) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Acts 1:16-20 (KJV) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

We seek for peace of God, which is contrary to evil where there is no peace.

You seem to think that Judas fulfilling scripture somehow means that God foreordained him to do what he did, but God knowing what will happen before it happens is not the same as Him foreordaining what happens.

But, let's go back to Isaiah 45:7 again. You are obviously sticking with your belief that it talks about God creating evil. I thought you said that evil has always existed. Now you're saying that God created it. You can't seem to make up your mind about some of these things that we're discussing. How about you just take a step back and give these things some more prayer and thought first before making contradictory statements while you are in the process of deciding what you believe about these things?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Have you no knowledge of the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world?

Are you the same person who before was complaining about the way WPM and I were talking to TS? This question is far worse and insulting than anything I've ever said on this forum. Questioning my knowledge of Jesus? Are you serious? Why in the world are you asking me this question and why didn't you just answer my question instead? I asked "How exactly do you think evil came about "through the providence and power of God" if it has always existed and God didn't create it?". Is that question somehow offensive to you? I'm just wondering how evil could have come about "through the providence and power of God" if it has always existed? Your understanding of Isaiah 45:7 suggests that you believe God created evil. How could evil always have existed if it was created? I'm just trying to get you to explain these things. But, you responded with this uncalled for insulting question instead.

 

[rwb]

Scripture does not teach that Judas was foreordained by God to do what he did.

What are you intending to say by referencing Psalm 109:6-19?

Psalm 109:6-19 (KJV) Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few; and let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places. Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour. Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children. Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth. Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart. As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him. As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones. Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.

Acts 1:16-26 (KJV) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Verse 17. He was numbered with us. He was chosen as an apostle by the Lord Jesus, Lu 6:13-16, This does not mean that he was a true Christian, but that he was reckoned among the apostles. Jesus knew that he never loved him. Long before he betrayed him, he declared that he was a devil, Joh 6:70. He knew his whole character when he chose him, Joh 2:25.

John 6:70-71 (KJV) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Luke 22:21-22 (KJV) But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

 

[rwb]

Are you the same person who before was complaining about the way WPM and I were talking to TS? This question is far worse and insulting than anything I've ever said on this forum. Questioning my knowledge of Jesus? Are you serious? Why in the world are you asking me this question and why didn't you just answer my question instead? I asked "How exactly do you think evil came about "through the providence and power of God" if it has always existed and God didn't create it?". Is that question somehow offensive to you? I'm just wondering how evil could have come about "through the providence and power of God" if it has always existed? Your understanding of Isaiah 45:7 suggests that you believe God created evil. How could evil always have existed if it was created? I'm just trying to get you to explain these things. But, you responded with this uncalled for insulting question instead.

I'm not questioning your knowledge of Jesus. I was wondering if you understand that it is by the providence of God that Christ would be the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. This depicts the Covenant promise enacted in heaven before the foundation of the world. Through His providential knowledge of all that would come to pass through Christ, the Triune Godhead orchestrated a plan before creation to save His people from their sins. If sin and death were not part of the providential knowledge of God, why would Christ be the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world? IOW before sin and death existed upon the earth, God has provided a remedy for the problem of sin and death through Christ; the Lamb of God.

Since you asked, "How exactly do you think evil came about "through the providence and power of God" if it has always existed and God didn't create it?"

I didn't say evil always existed. I said darkness existed before creation, and through darkness sin and death through sin would come into God's creation. I did not mean to insult you.

 

[Scott Downey]

Since you asked, "How exactly do you think evil came about "through the providence and power of God" if it has always existed and God didn't create it?"

I didn't say evil always existed. I said darkness existed before creation, and through darkness sin and death through sin would come into God's creation. I did not mean to insult you.

God created the light and the dark, how can you even say darkness existed before the creation?
That is illogical and not scriptural.

The Creator Of Darkness | The Institute for Creation Research

www.icr.org

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil, I the LORD do all these things” (Isaiah 45:7).

This seems at first to be a confusing verse. How could a God of holiness create evil and darkness? Actually, the word translated “evil” (Hebrew, ra) does not mean “sin,” but “affliction.” God pronounced the great curse on the ground “for man’s sake” (Genesis 3:17), that the sorrows and pains of life might cause him to know his need of redemption. All of these physical evils will be forever removed—even the curse itself—in the new earth, when sin has been removed.

The same is the case with darkness: Since “God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all” (I John 1:5), it was necessary for Him to create darkness if there was to be a distinction between day and night. The latter would be necessary for at least the probationary period of man’s tenure on earth, for he would need nightly rest as well as daily food, for his responsibilities as steward over God’s creation. Further, there must be a background of heavenly darkness in order for the sun and moon and stars to serve their function of indicating “signs and for seasons, and for days, and years” (Genesis 1:14).

Thus, the darkness enveloping the primeval earth at its creation (Genesis 1:2) was not at all a judgment on the earth because of the fall of Satan, as some have taught. Like everything else in the primeval creation, it was “very good” (Genesis 1:31)—created for specific and beneficent divine purposes. The evil connotations of darkness came later, when evil men and devils found they could better promote their deceptions under cover of darkness. However, God’s light is even then always available to dispel the darkness when needed and desired. “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (II Corinthians 4:6). HMM

 

[rwb]

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil, I the LORD do all these things” (Isaiah 45:7).

This seems at first to be a confusing verse. How could a God of holiness create evil and darkness? Actually, the word translated “evil” (Hebrew, ra) does not mean “sin,” but “affliction.” God pronounced the great curse on the ground “for man’s sake” (Genesis 3:17), that the sorrows and pains of life might cause him to know his need of redemption. All of these physical evils will be forever removed—even the curse itself—in the new earth, when sin has been removed.

The same is the case with darkness: Since “God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all” (I John 1:5), it was necessary for Him to create darkness if there was to be a distinction between day and night. The latter would be necessary for at least the probationary period of man’s tenure on earth, for he would need nightly rest as well as daily food, for his responsibilities as steward over God’s creation. Further, there must be a background of heavenly darkness in order for the sun and moon and stars to serve their function of indicating “signs and for seasons, and for days, and years” (Genesis 1:14).

Thus, the darkness enveloping the primeval earth at its creation (Genesis 1:2) was not at all a judgment on the earth because of the fall of Satan, as some have taught. Like everything else in the primeval creation, it was “very good” (Genesis 1:31)—created for specific and beneficent divine purposes. The evil connotations of darkness came later, when evil men and devils found they could better promote their deceptions under cover of darkness. However, God’s light is even then always available to dispel the darkness when needed and desired. “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (II Corinthians 4:6). HMM

Evil is not in question, darkness is. Was darkness created by God, or was darkness upon the face of the deep? I believe darkness is a metaphor meaning without the presence of Light.

Darkness -

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
2822. חֹשֶׁךְ choshek (chôshek)
Search for H2822 in KJVSL; in KJV; load in ESI.

חֹשֶׁךְ chôshek, kho-shek'

from H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness:—dark(-ness), night, obscurity.

masculine noun

Genesis 1:2 – The Metaphor of Darkness in Creation​

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Genesis 1:2)

“Formless and void” are two words given to show us that the earth was a lump of clay, a blank canvas set before the Great Artist before He began to shape it according to His will. “Darkness” is a metaphor used throughout Scripture to mean several different things. Darkness here, aside from being the literal lack of light, speaks of that which has yet to be influenced by the movement of God. The earth is not dark in Verse 2 of Genesis 1 because God has destroyed some prior creation, it is dark because the Spirit of God is “hovering” over the surface of earth’s waters, about to move upon them.

Darkness is often used to describe the result of a Divine judgment in Scripture, but it is also used as a simple metaphor for the absence of light. Light is often used as a metaphor for the presence of God in the Bible, particularly that light which illuminates and changes people. Isaiah’s words are quoted by Matthew and Luke in application to the Lord Jesus, the Great Light:

The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: They that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. (Isaiah 9:2)

Darkness is the default setting of everything and everyone that has yet to be touched by the light of God’s presence. If a room has no light in it, it is dark. When we flip the light switch, the darkness is driven back by the light and vanishes. The earth sat in darkness in Genesis 1:2 because the light had yet to shine upon it. So it is with the human heart. Before the Light of God shines upon a person’s heart, that person sits in darkness. They walk in darkness because they have no light in them. When God’s Spirit moves, He brings with Him light, and life, and order. Before that, a person dwells in the land of the shadow of death and darkness encompasses them. Like the earth before God called light from darkness, there is no life apart from the moving of the Holy Spirit.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:6)

Creation, Genesis, God, Old Testament, Religion

 

[rwb]

What are angels and demons?

I believe they are invisible spiritual beings to serve one of two masters, the one to damnation, and the other to everlasting life. Every human has spirit, because it is spirit that gives life and the flesh profits nothing (Jo 6:63). The master all of mankind serves, has been determined the day we are physically born. And from the moment man freely chose to heed the voice of the serpent in the garden of Eden, all of mankind is born with spirit (mind, heart, will, emotions) like that of the master we chose to serve, the master over sin and death. All of mankind is born to serve our master Satan. It is for this reason that Christ tells mankind "Ye must be born again." Because to be born again is to be born from above, that is when the old spirit (mind, heart, will, emotions) is made new again through the Spirit of the Lord once again breathing into us a new mind, heart, will and emotions. A new Spirit that will guide us to everlasting life.

When we are born with spirit like the master we serve, it's not that we become spirits! We become spiritual, in our ways of life, our minds, hearts, wills and emotions become like the master we serve. When we are in unbelief, we aren't invisible evil spirits, devils or demons that we serve, but we identify so closely to the way they operate that we are said to be of our father, the devil (Jo 8:44).

The same is true when we become born again. Our old ways are replaced through our new master, who is the Spirit of Christ in us. When we are born again, we don't become invisible spirits, angels, we become spiritual in our ways of life. We so closely identify with the Lord when we are of His Spirit that God has become our Father.

When we speak of humanity as being spirits of devils, demons, or angels of God, we mean that mankind by their actions/inactions prove themselves to be the instruments of power for the master's we serve, by how we live clothed in mortal flesh in this world. When we live in unbelief serving the master over sin and death, our body of flesh is used to deceive, to lie, to steal, and kill etc., there is no limit to what fallen man might do as they willfully serve the master over sin and death. The same is true of all who have been born again. The Holy Spirit in us uses our mortal body to demonstrate to the world the fruit of the Spirit of Christ in us, that unbelievers might come to know the joy and peace that await all who have been born again.

Galatians 5:19-25 (KJV) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[WPM]

What are angels and demons?

I believe they are invisible spiritual beings to serve one of two masters, the one to damnation, and the other to everlasting life. Every human has spirit, because it is spirit that gives life and the flesh profits nothing (Jo 6:63). The master all of mankind serves, has been determined the day we are physically born. And from the moment man freely chose to heed the voice of the serpent in the garden of Eden, all of mankind is born with spirit (mind, heart, will, emotions) like that of the master we chose to serve, the master over sin and death. All of mankind is born to serve our master Satan. It is for this reason that Christ tells mankind "Ye must be born again." Because to be born again is to be born from above, that is when the old spirit (mind, heart, will, emotions) is made new again through the Spirit of the Lord once again breathing into us a new mind, heart, will and emotions. A new Spirit that will guide us to everlasting life.

When we are born with spirit like the master we serve, it's not that we become spirits! We become spiritual, in our ways of life, our minds, hearts, wills and emotions become like the master we serve. When we are in unbelief, we aren't invisible evil spirits, devils or demons that we serve, but we identify so closely to the way they operate that we are said to be of our father, the devil (Jo 8:44).

The same is true when we become born again. Our old ways are replaced through our new master, who is the Spirit of Christ in us. When we are born again, we don't become invisible spirits, angels, we become spiritual in our ways of life. We so closely identify with the Lord when we are of His Spirit that God has become our Father.

When we speak of humanity as being spirits of devils, demons, or angels of God, we mean that mankind by their actions/inactions prove themselves to be the instruments of power for the master's we serve, by how we live clothed in mortal flesh in this world. When we live in unbelief serving the master over sin and death, our body of flesh is used to deceive, to lie, to steal, and kill etc., there is no limit to what fallen man might do as they willfully serve the master over sin and death. The same is true of all who have been born again. The Holy Spirit in us uses our mortal body to demonstrate to the world the fruit of the Spirit of Christ in us, that unbelievers might come to know the joy and peace that await all who have been born again.

Galatians 5:19-25 (KJV) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

So, are all humans possessed by angels and demons?

 

[rwb]

So, are all humans possessed by angels and demons?

Did I say they are?

 

[WPM]

Did I say they are?

I am just asking.

Where do you differ with TS (if anywhere)? That may be where a lot of confusion has arisen, because you have loved and liked his thesis.

 

[WPM]

Did I say they are?

I am genuinely curious: where do you differ with TS (if anywhere)? That may be where a lot of confusion has arisen, because you have liked and loved his thesis so far.

 

[rwb]

I am genuinely curious: where do you differ with TS (if anywhere)? That may be where a lot of confusion has arisen, because you have liked and loved his thesis so far.

I've already told you what I believe. But you aren't content with that, because you want to know if I too agree that mankind is the spirit that resides in us, believing there are no spirit messengers of God called angels or spirit messengers of Satan called devils and demons, because we are messengers of either God or Satan. But in saying this I would be giving you more fodder to prove how lacking in understanding you appear to be regarding the spiritual realm. Would I use the exact wording for what I believe regarding spirits as TS does, no! However, I agree 100% with him in the way I understand what he is saying. As I've already said, "When we speak of humanity as being spirits of devils, demons, or angels of God, we mean that mankind by their actions/inactions prove themselves to be the instruments of power for the master's we serve, by how we live clothed in mortal flesh in this world. When we live in unbelief serving the master over sin and death, our body of flesh is used to deceive, to lie, to steal, and kill etc., there is no limit to what fallen man might do as they willfully serve the master over sin and death. The same is true of all who have been born again. The Holy Spirit in us uses our mortal body to demonstrate to the world the fruit of the Spirit of Christ in us, that unbelievers might come to know the joy and peace that await all who have been born again." In this way, we are or rather the spirit within us (mind, heart, will and emotions) become exactly like the spirit/Spirit we serve. I believe this is what TS means when he says, mankind are the spirits that exist in this world, therefore we need to look within for spirits, for we are all of our father, and their fruits shall also be our own.

 

[WPM]

I've already told you what I believe. But you aren't content with that, because you want to know if I too agree that mankind is the spirit that resides in us, believing there are no spirit messengers of God called angels or spirit messengers of Satan called devils and demons, because we are messengers of either God or Satan. But in saying this I would be giving you more fodder to prove how lacking in understanding you appear to be regarding the spiritual realm. Would I use the exact wording for what I believe regarding spirits as TS does, no! However, I agree 100% with him in the way I understand what he is saying. As I've already said, "When we speak of humanity as being spirits of devils, demons, or angels of God, we mean that mankind by their actions/inactions prove themselves to be the instruments of power for the master's we serve, by how we live clothed in mortal flesh in this world. When we live in unbelief serving the master over sin and death, our body of flesh is used to deceive, to lie, to steal, and kill etc., there is no limit to what fallen man might do as they willfully serve the master over sin and death. The same is true of all who have been born again. The Holy Spirit in us uses our mortal body to demonstrate to the world the fruit of the Spirit of Christ in us, that unbelievers might come to know the joy and peace that await all who have been born again." In this way, we are or rather the spirit within us (mind, heart, will and emotions) become exactly like the spirit/Spirit we serve. I believe this is what TS means when he says, mankind are the spirits that exist in this world, therefore we need to look within for spirits, for we are all of our father, and their fruits shall also be our own.

It is clear that you and TS have never been involved in real frontline ministry or you would not deny that angels and demons are real entities distinct from man that influence man for good or evil. You would also not deny Satan is a real unique entity separate from but controlling evil men. That is why both of you have avoided a multitude of posts above and have run. You have to. Your whole argument is untenable and unbiblical. It is you both who are "lacking in understanding you appear to be regarding the spiritual realm."

 

[Scott Downey]

When I read scripture about the devil, he is described as a real, personal being, not a concept or a theme.

Is the devil / Satan a person or a force / personification of evil? | GotQuestions.org

Is the devil / Satan a person or a force / personification of evil? Does Satan even really exist?

www.gotquestions.org

Although he has persuaded many people that he doesn’t exist, Satan very definitely is a real, personal being, the source of all unbelief and of every kind of moral and spiritual evil in the world. He is called by various names in the Bible, including Satan (meaning “adversary”—Job 1:6; Romans 16:20), the devil (i.e., “slanderer”—Matthew 4:1; 1 Peter 5:8), Lucifer (Isaiah 14:12), the serpent (2 Corinthians 11:3; Revelation 12:9), and many others.

The existence of Satan as a personal being is proved by the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ recognized him as such. Jesus referred to him frequently by name (e.g., Luke 10:18; Matthew 4:10) and called him “the prince of this world” (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11).

The apostle Paul called Satan the “god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4) and the “prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2). The apostle John said, “The whole world is under the control of the evil one” (1 John 5:19) and that Satan “leads the whole world astray” (Revelation 12:9). These could hardly be descriptions of an impersonal force or a mere personification of evil.

The Scriptures teach that, before man and the world were created, God had created an “innumerable company of angels” (Hebrews 12:22), a heavenly host of spiritual beings of great strength and intelligence. The highest of these beings are the cherubim, who are attendants at the very throne of God, and the “anointed cherub” was originally Satan himself (Ezekiel 28:14). He was “full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.”

God did not create Satan as an evil being, however. The angels, like man, were created as free spirits, not as unthinking machines. They were fully able to reject God’s will and rebel against His authority if they chose.

The basic sin, in both man and angels, is the twin sin of unbelief and pride. Satan said in his heart, “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God . . . I will be like the most High” (Isaiah 14:13,14). Again, these could hardly be the actions or motivations of an impersonal force.

Jesus also told us of some of the characteristics of Satan. Christ said he was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him, and that when he speaks he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies (John 8:44).

It is crucial that Christians recognize the reality of Satan and understand that he prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8). It is impossible to overcome sin and temptation from the devil by ourselves, but Scripture tells us how to be strong. We need to put on the full armor of God and withstand temptation (Ephesians 6:13).