understanding forgiveness

[thelord's_pearl]

So Jesus was speaking to everyone, even the ones who crucified Him and not only to the ones who Aunty Jane said were "ignorant" and just did their job?

Actually I'm going to read that passage again for myself to see what scripture actually says in my understanding. Thanks everyone! 'Cause every time I sin against God and knew what I did was wrong but was weak and needed His graceful help and still sinned, I was humble and did say and was sorry to God.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Jesus says it to all who crucify him....which is you and me.....yes, he took our sins.
'What we have done to the least we have done it to him', Jesus says. So we ask the question, who are the least? Those spat out by the system; the disenfranchised, immigrants, the imprisoned, the homeless, the sexually misguided and oppressed, drug addicts and all who are marginalised.

So your jesus is the habourer of your Sins ? so that makes Sin ok in your eyes. because your jesus hides your Sins ?

Sin is Sin regardless ! one must look down on Sin, regardless, but for the one who is truly repentance has hope.

Nowadays clearly Sin abounds more than it once did, in my life time, as it's promoted now !
Gay displays are Idolised by every Church that lives in fear of the Nazi Socialist system that lords it's self over everyone nowadays !
For you are forbiden to question any System that the new age type of Nazi Socialist or Communist type nonsense has peddled to dominate over everyone.
Example, Like in regard Gays, it's a all for one deal ? The boy man to the king pin rapist in the Jails are all as one body ? do not question such ! because you are forbidden to do so ! now I have no regards the Boy Man being the real problem issue, but I do question others who are clearly depraved, to totaly depraved !

So when it comes down to the workings of the Devil ? he is a real nice guy ? he is happy for you to do as you please regardless, as you become a god ? your own god ? that fools Idolise !

like in Jail, you will see the biggest idiot is idolised in fact by all of the morons ! OK example little Johnny stole a car and destroyed it or sold it for $4000 and bought drugs for himself, but hey hey Richard did the same but with $40,000 ? So Richard is the one who is Idolised in Jail. seriously that's what takes place in Jails, it's the moronic express !

Fact is all such in Jail are total morons ! but that's how it is in Jails, it's all promoted !
Just as people who claim to be Chrtistians promote Sin and depravity in fact ! They do ! such fools are taught to hide their Sins from all in fact ! for what ? that jesus has taken on their Sin for them, So the covered up card comes out day in day out.
That's why they like their religion, it coveres up for them ?
I have seen many such people ! They should have a broom and a carpet Idol trinket abound their neck, instead of their false cross.

A false cross is one without Jesus nailed to it ! for the Cross is a curse in fact on it's own.
But fact is it's Jesus hanging on the Cross that is the deal, for it was our Sin nature that clearly hung him up on such !
So when one says for you to carry the Cross, it means for Jesus ! due to the regards the Sin of Man was the point !

Sin is the whole issue and if we do not address and call out Sin, such a one is only creating a curse for all and the next generation etc etc.

But Sin is not addressed in a Carnal way, but with guidance under Grace !

The Sins of the World are clearly creating more Trashay idiot people, look no more to the Idolising of Hamas, that we see running about, it's just totaly pathetic !
That nowadays we have total morons supporting a People who totaly clearly tryed to kill every Jew in the State of Israel, in fact wanton Genocide !
But they failed this time around ? They could of won with Kamala as President !
But they will clearly have another go ! why ? because clearly the MS Media and all Socialist Governments Idolise Hamas ! in all of their egging them moronic Terrorist on ! that's clearly what they did !

When Hamas should of been exposed, as a Satanic Death Cult Terrorist organisation who clearly only wants Genocide all of the Jews !
Now who can say that is not true.

I never thought that the day would come in the West that we would have people in droves attack the Jews like the Nazis did, once again.
As the MS Media and even Socialist Governments and all were all totaly Idolising the Jews 24/7 ! from 1990's on. Then Bingo they turned on Israel ! For the god of Socialism is clearly their Idol as is many stupid Godless Socialist Jews. who clearly are not worthy of the OT !

 

[quietthinker]

So your jesus is the habourer of your Sins ? so that makes Sin ok in your eyes. because your jesus hides your Sins ?

Sin is Sin regardless ! one must look down on Sin, regardless, but for the one who is truly repentance has hope.

Nowadays clearly Sin abounds more than it once did, in my life time, as it's promoted now !
Gay displays are Idolised by every Church that lives in fear of the Nazi Socialist system that lords it's self over everyone nowadays !
For you are forbiden to question any System that the new age type of Nazi Socialist or Communist type nonsense has peddled to dominate over everyone.
Example, Like in regard Gays, it's a all for one deal ? The boy man to the king pin rapist in the Jails are all as one body ? do not question such ! because you are forbidden to do so ! now I have no regards the Boy Man being the real problem issue, but I do question others who are clearly depraved, to totaly depraved !

So when it comes down to the workings of the Devil ? he is a real nice guy ? he is happy for you to do as you please regardless, as you become a god ? your own god ? that fools Idolise !

like in Jail, you will see the biggest idiot is idolised in fact by all of the morons ! OK example little Johnny stole a car and destroyed it or sold it for $4000 and bought drugs for himself, but hey hey Richard did the same but with $40,000 ? So Richard is the one who is Idolised in Jail. seriously that's what takes place in Jails, it's the moronic express !

Fact is all such in Jail are total morons ! but that's how it is in Jails, it's all promoted !
Just as people who claim to be Chrtistians promote Sin and depravity in fact ! They do ! such fools are taught to hide their Sins from all in fact ! for what ? that jesus has taken on their Sin for them, So the covered up card comes out day in day out.
That's why they like their religion, it coveres up for them ?
I have seen many such people ! They should have a broom and a carpet Idol trinket abound their neck, instead of their false cross.

A false cross is one without Jesus nailed to it ! for the Cross is a curse in fact on it's own.
But fact is it's Jesus hanging on the Cross that is the deal, for it was our Sin nature that clearly hung him up on such !
So when one says for you to carry the Cross, it means for Jesus ! due to the regards the Sin of Man was the point !

Sin is the whole issue and if we do not address and call out Sin, such a one is only creating a curse for all and the next generation etc etc.

But Sin is not addressed in a Carnal way, but with guidance under Grace !

The Sins of the World are clearly creating more Trashay idiot people, look no more to the Idolising of Hamas, that we see running about, it's just totaly pathetic !
That nowadays we have total morons supporting a People who totaly clearly tryed to kill every Jew in the State of Israel, in fact wanton Genocide !
But they failed this time around ? They could of won with Kamala as President !
But they will clearly have another go ! why ? because clearly the MS Media and all Socialist Governments Idolise Hamas ! in all of their egging them moronic Terrorist on ! that's clearly what they did !
When Hamas should have been exposed, as a Satanic Death Cult Terrorist organisation who clearly only wants Genocide all of the Jews !
Now who can say that is not true.

I never thought that the day would come in the West that we would have people in droves attack the Jews like the Nazis did, once again.
As the MS Media and even Socialist Governments and all were all totaly Idolising the Jews 24/7 ! from 1990's on. Then Bingo they turned on Israel ! For the god of Socialism is clearly their Idol as is many stupid Godless Socialist Jews. who clearly are not worthy of the OT !

The regular ranting and blaming you engage Reggie gives hope to nobody.
A litany of pompous self righteousness pours from you pen whenever you post.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The regular ranting and blaming you engage Reggie gives hope to nobody.
A litany of pompous self righteousness pours from you pen whenever you post.

Am I wrong ?

Your breeding Sin ! in the name of looking good too people who know no better ! or do, but clearly feer the Light ! They are all on the path to Hell ? and do you care that that is the case ?

Why not try and pull what I have said apart, insted of just stating that type of line that clearly goes nowhere, but only just tempts the shallow simple minded who do not think seriously.

The workings of the Devil and his Satanic Mob are even Priest within the Churches, playing the good guy and molestinging children on one hand and playing the rest for fools.

The Followers of such so called Priest never question the Priest, for they just swallow all he says regardless !
For such do not have eyes to see nor ears to hear and do they fall for the workings of Sin ?
I have seen such people in droves. and I may ask what are they doing in Church ? or lets bring up the subject of Christ Jesus ? and then they run away ! for they lack Christ Jesus but who do they serve ? Mans works ?

So how can such enter Heaven or let alone the Kingdom of God !
Their is a list of who can enter the Kingdom of God in fact, now I have grave concerns for such as them. as it's my right to warn people of such as their condition. or I would not be a worthy Christian if I had no regards for such people.

Jesus called such people out from this world. not too bath in it !

 

[JLB]

Hi,
When Jesus on the cross said "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.", why did He forgive those who didn't say sorry? Just trying to understand Jesus' kind of forgiveness... Thanks

When we harbor unforgiveness, then our Heavenly Father will not forgive our sins.

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:14-15


Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
“But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers (tormentors; KJV) until he should pay all that was due to him. “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matthew 18:21-35

• So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.

Three key points to understand:

• This admonition is for Christians; so My heavenly Father will do to each of you...

• The forgiveness of the debt (our sins) will be revoked and the original sentence will be re-instated. We no longer have the forgiveness of sins just as unbelievers

• You will be handed over to the tormentors, to be tormented until you learn to forgive. In prison you can't get away from the torturers.

Note: If we no longer have the forgiveness of sins, then our lives are an open door for the devil to gain access to us, to torment us.


We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18


How many Christians today, take prescription drugs for anxiety and panic attacks, insomnia... ?


Perhaps the root issue is unforgiveness.

 

[Muna]

I think I might have that insomnia thing, but I would want to keep mine, not medicate it away, because I really enjoy being up all night, theres just not enough hours in the day for me, so I need those spillover hours.

I forgive folks though, and its not a toss and turn kind of insomnia.

If I have chocolate late at night sometimes that will do it, than I will toss and turn, and turn the light on and decide, I'll just stay up all night again.

 

[quietthinker]

Am I wrong ?

Your breeding Sin ! in the name of looking good too people who know no better ! or do, but clearly feer the Light ! They are all on the path to Hell ? and do you care that that is the case ?

Why not try and pull what I have said apart, insted of just stating that type of line that clearly goes nowhere, but only just tempts the shallow simple minded who do not think seriously.

The workings of the Devil and his Satanic Mob are even Priest within the Churches, playing the good guy and molestinging children on one hand and playing the rest for fools.

The Followers of such so called Priest never question the Priest, for they just swallow all he says regardless !
For such do not have eyes to see nor ears to hear and do they fall for the workings of Sin ?
I have seen such people in droves. and I may ask what are they doing in Church ? or lets bring up the subject of Christ Jesus ? and then they run away ! for they lack Christ Jesus but who do they serve ? Mans works ?

So how can such enter Heaven or let alone the Kingdom of God !
Their is a list of who can enter the Kingdom of God in fact, now I have grave concerns for such as them. as it's my right to warn people of such as their condition. or I would not be a worthy Christian if I had no regards for such people.

Jesus called such people out from this world. not too bath in it !

There you go again, ranting and blaming.
Maybe one day you'll stand back from your ranting and have an honest look at your own words.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

There you go again, ranting and blaming.
Maybe one day you'll stand back from your ranting and have an honest look at your own words.

Mushroom's openly do not speek out in any much depth. but only back bite with one liners.

Do you have any virtue, to even question what was said.

Just puting up lines like you do back clearly shows me the lack of depth on your part.

 

[quietthinker]

Mushroom's openly do not speek out in any much depth. but only back bite with one liners.

Do you have any virtue, to even question what was said.

Just puting up lines like you do back clearly shows me the lack of depth on your part.

I'm asking you to look at your offerings....honestly!

 

[thelord's_pearl]

okay. I read the passage again and it seems to really say that Jesus was talking about those who crucified Him when He said ''Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.'' So I think what Jesus was saying also, and from what I read of the interpretation online, was that even when we sin, we don't ever truly know the weight of it like we justify it? so in essence we know not what we do and should forgive each other of sins, it doesn't matter if we think we knew it was sin and still did it or we didn't yet know it was a sin and did it. However... scripture says that God gives more punishment to sins that are intentionally committed over sins that are ignorantly committed and only God can judge in the end.

 

[quietthinker]

okay. I read the passage again and it seems to really say that Jesus was talking about those who crucified Him when He said ''Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.'' So I think what Jesus was saying also, and from what I read of the interpretation online, was that even when we sin, we don't ever truly know the weight of it like we justify it? so in essence we know not what we do and should forgive each other of sins, it doesn't matter if we think we knew it was sin and still did it or we didn't yet know it was a sin and did it. However... scripture says that God gives more punishment to sins that are intentionally committed over sins that are ignorantly committed and only God can judge in the end.

The intentional sin is not trusting/ believing in the overarching generosity of God's forgiveness.
Judas fell into the trap of believing he would not be forgiven ....that's the rationale which killed him.
The enemy works on you knowing that you know you are not good enough. He'll push it (if you let him) till you eventually doubt that you are able to be forgiven.

 

[Muna]

The intentional sin is not trusting/ believing in the overarching generosity of God's forgiveness.
Judas fell into the trap of believing he would not be forgiven ....that's the rationale which killed him.
The enemy works on you knowing that you know you are not good enough. He'll push it (if you let him) till you eventually doubt that you are able to be forgiven.

QT, Jesus did say here

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!
good were it for that man if he had never been born.

And of Judas it is written of him here

Psalm 109:8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
Psalm 109:9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
Psalm 109:10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
Psalm 109:11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
Psalm 109:12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.

In Psalam 109:12 it speaks of none to extend mercy to him there

 

[quietthinker]

QT, Jesus did say here

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!
good were it for that man if he had never been born.

And of Judas it is written of him here

Psalm 109:8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
Psalm 109:9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
Psalm 109:10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
Psalm 109:11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
Psalm 109:12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.

In Psalam 109:12 it speaks of none to extend mercy to him there

prediction does not equal causation.

 

[Muna]

prediction does not equal causation.

Its prophetic concerning Christ and the incident and plays out, Christ has the last word

Psalm 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

Whoso rewardeth evil for good

Proverbs 17:13 Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.

Which Judas did, says of him here,

Psalm 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

And again here,

Psalm 109:8a Let his days be few;

Which they were,

Matt 27:5 and went and hanged himself.

Replaced

Psalm 109:8b and let another take his office.

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms,

Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

And again, whoso rewardeth evil for good

Proverbs 17:13 Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.

Psalm 109:9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
Psalm 109:10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
Psalm 109:11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
Psalm 109:12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.

Even Jesus said,

John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

John 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

Luke 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I'm asking you to look at your offerings....honestly!

Good on you.

 

[quietthinker]

Its prophetic concerning Christ and the incident and plays out, Christ has the last word

Psalm 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

Whoso rewardeth evil for good

Proverbs 17:13 Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.

Which Judas did, says of him here,

Psalm 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

And again here,

Psalm 109:8a Let his days be few;

Which they were,

Matt 27:5 and went and hanged himself.

Replaced

Psalm 109:8b and let another take his office.

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms,

Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

And again, whoso rewardeth evil for good

Proverbs 17:13 Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.

Psalm 109:9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
Psalm 109:10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
Psalm 109:11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
Psalm 109:12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.

Even Jesus said,

John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

John 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

Luke 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

I think you've missed the meaning of 'prediction does not equal causation', Truly

 

[Muna]

I think you've missed the meaning of 'prediction does not equal causation', Truly

I know it QT, I had to run it through AI translator and try and wade through it all of what you might be meaning and so I thought I would overpost and go right into what the scriptures show. Not to mention I am not all that philisophical ( is that the right word? And did I even spell that right? not really sure) but thats pretty much seems to be your shtick (not mine, sorry, thats going out of my lane, I am far too ignorant).

BUT it does show us his prayer would be sin, and the no mercy be shown to him and that his days would be few and his wife would obviously be a widow, and since he covenanted with those who devou widows houses he put his own house in quite a pickle, especially when returning evil for good, there was a principle at play there.

BUT then again, look at 2 Sam 12:9 when David repays Uriah with evil here

2 Sam 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Noice how Davids house would be affected because of his evil doing here

2 Sam 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

2 Sam 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

2 Sam 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

David acknowledged his sin

2 Sam 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

2 Sam 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

And David was a man after Gods own heart, even still in that thing he became as one that despised God in doing what he did and although God took away his sin, his house would suffer.

So you can imagine, if Judas took his life (and was married) his wife would naturally be made a widow (forseeing this) and if he had children (they would be fatherless) he covenanted money to betray innocent blood (returning not evil for evil, but rather evil for good). Then took the money (and the extortioner would catch alll he had) for within those priests were full of extortion, and not quite sure how the strangers spoiling his labour might work into this, but since the extortioners purchased a field to bury strangers in that seems to fit that prophecy.


Judas acknowledges his sin here

Mat 27:4a Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.

And they said,

What is that to us? see thou to that.

Not sure what they mean by that yet, "Go kill yourself"? I would be curious to know.

But it says of Judas also

Psalm 109:8a Let his days be few

And they were, and according to prophecy before he ended his life

Matt 27:5a And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed,

His days were few because it says Judas

Matt 27:5b went and hanged himself.

Then this part also

Psalm 109:11a Let the extortioner catch all that he hath

Which must be speaking of these guys

Mat 27:6a And the chief priests took the silver pieces,

Since Jesus says of these,

Mat 23:25...within they are full of extortion and excess.

These very same would say,

Mat 27:6b It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

Whereas here it also says this,

Psalm 109:11b and let the strangers spoil his labour.

Adnd here is what they decided to do with it

Mat 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

Purchased with blood money

Mat 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

And so you could show Judas covenanted with them in the betrayal of innocent blood, I got to look at this
a little closer in the OT, because there is this "innocent blood" thing back there. There is also rendering evil
for evil which is a natural reaction we are to overcome, and we are to overcome evil with good, but then there is
this other thing, "rewarding evil for someones good". Regardless, it does say, even in the NT

And we see a vengeance of the Lord, or the bearing our own judgment when we do evil

Roman 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

And when we do good, and here it shows us that if we would love life and see good days, the same is somehow tied into
refraining our own tongues from evil

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile

Returning back to the psalm its a plural doing between both Judas and the children of Israel in this thing

Again,

Psalm 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

As it also says, again

Proverbs 17:13 Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.

Same principle, as with him so also with them right

Their house is affected as Jesus points out here

Matt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate

And the children within the same

Luke 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee

And the judgment, of falling by the sword

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations

And so naturally Judas house would be affected

Psalm 109:9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.

Thats what happens when you hang yourself anyway, natural consequences here

And showing this again, Judas covenanted with those who devour widows houses right?

Mark 12:40 Which devour widows' houses

And so when it says,

Psalm 109:11a Let the extortioner catch all that he hath

You could probably catch it like that too, because they would catch his silver and all he hath,
not to mention they would probably devour his own widows house and reduce his own children
to beggars

Psalm 109:10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg:

Then here,

let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.

Would that be a reference to those places made desolate by the Lord?

Or for example, like here, looking up Iscariot, shows some thing with the men Kerioth

Judas Iscariot = "men of Kerioth"

Amos 2:2 But I will send a fire upon Moab, and it shall devour the palaces of Kerioth: and Moab shall die

Because it does actually speak of the iniquity of his fathers in Psalam 109:14

Psalm 109:14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. 15 Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.

Not really sure, but I find this study fascinating, I written it up so many different ways, to see how forgiveness plays out in Judas in some way, and if it be shown.

 

[quietthinker]

I know it QT, I had to run it through AI translator and try and wade through it all of what you might be meaning and so I thought I would overpost and go right into what the scriptures show. Not to mention I am not all that philisophical ( is that the right word? And did I even spell that right? not really sure) but thats pretty much seems to be your shtick (not mine, sorry, thats going out of my lane, I am far too ignorant).

BUT it does show us his prayer would be sin, and the no mercy be shown to him and that his days would be few and his wife would obviously be a widow, and since he covenanted with those who devou widows houses he put his own house in quite a pickle, especially when returning evil for good, there was a principle at play there.

BUT then again, look at 2 Sam 12:9 when David repays Uriah with evil here

2 Sam 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Noice how Davids house would be affected because of his evil doing here

2 Sam 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

2 Sam 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

2 Sam 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

David acknowledged his sin

2 Sam 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

2 Sam 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

And David was a man after Gods own heart, even still in that thing he became as one that despised God in doing what he did and although God took away his sin, his house would suffer.

So you can imagine, if Judas took his life (and was married) his wife would naturally be made a widow (forseeing this) and if he had children (they would be fatherless) he covenanted money to betray innocent blood (returning not evil for evil, but rather evil for good). Then took the money (and the extortioner would catch alll he had) for within those priests were full of extortion, and not quite sure how the strangers spoiling his labour might work into this, but since the extortioners purchased a field to bury strangers in that seems to fit that prophecy.


Judas acknowledges his sin here

Mat 27:4a Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.

And they said,

What is that to us? see thou to that.

Not sure what they mean by that yet, "Go kill yourself"? I would be curious to know.

But it says of Judas also

Psalm 109:8a Let his days be few

And they were, and according to prophecy before he ended his life

Matt 27:5a And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed,

His days were few because it says Judas

Matt 27:5b went and hanged himself.

Then this part also

Psalm 109:11a Let the extortioner catch all that he hath

Which must be speaking of these guys

Mat 27:6a And the chief priests took the silver pieces,

Since Jesus says of these,

Mat 23:25...within they are full of extortion and excess.

These very same would say,

Mat 27:6b It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

Whereas here it also says this,

Psalm 109:11b and let the strangers spoil his labour.

Adnd here is what they decided to do with it

Mat 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

Purchased with blood money

Mat 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

And so you could show Judas covenanted with them in the betrayal of innocent blood, I got to look at this
a little closer in the OT, because there is this "innocent blood" thing back there. There is also rendering evil
for evil which is a natural reaction we are to overcome, and we are to overcome evil with good, but then there is
this other thing, "rewarding evil for someones good". Regardless, it does say, even in the NT

And we see a vengeance of the Lord, or the bearing our own judgment when we do evil

Roman 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

And when we do good, and here it shows us that if we would love life and see good days, the same is somehow tied into
refraining our own tongues from evil

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile

Returning back to the psalm its a plural doing between both Judas and the children of Israel in this thing

Again,

Psalm 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

As it also says, again

Proverbs 17:13 Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.

Same principle, as with him so also with them right

Their house is affected as Jesus points out here

Matt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate

And the children within the same

Luke 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee

And the judgment, of falling by the sword

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations

And so naturally Judas house would be affected

Psalm 109:9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.

Thats what happens when you hang yourself anyway, natural consequences here

And showing this again, Judas covenanted with those who devour widows houses right?

Mark 12:40 Which devour widows' houses

And so when it says,

Psalm 109:11a Let the extortioner catch all that he hath

You could probably catch it like that too, because they would catch his silver and all he hath,
not to mention they would probably devour his own widows house and reduce his own children
to beggars

Psalm 109:10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg:

Then here,

let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.

Would that be a reference to those places made desolate by the Lord?

Or for example, like here, looking up Iscariot, shows some thing with the men Kerioth

Judas Iscariot = "men of Kerioth"

Amos 2:2 But I will send a fire upon Moab, and it shall devour the palaces of Kerioth: and Moab shall die

Because it does actually speak of the iniquity of his fathers in Psalam 109:14

Psalm 109:14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. 15 Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.

Not really sure, but I find this study fascinating, I written it up so many different ways, to see how forgiveness plays out in Judas in some way, and if it be shown.

Explain to me what you think 'prediction does not equal causation' means, Truly?

 

[Muna]

Explain to me what you think 'prediction does not equal causation' means, Truly?

Are ya listening QT? You asked already

I think you've missed the meaning of 'prediction does not equal causation', Truly

I know it QT

Let me interpret that, it means I know your right which is why after it I stated....

I know it QT, I had to run it through AI translator and try and wade through it all of what you might be meaning and so I thought I would overpost and go right into what the scriptures show.

And I will give you an example of running your words here

AI posted back to me

The phrase "prediction does not equal causation" means that just because two variables are correlated or one can be used to predict the other does not imply that one causes the other. Correlation or predictive association indicates that changes in one variable are linked to changes in another, allowing for forecasting, but it does not establish a cause-and-effect relationship. For example, yellow fingers can predict lung cancer risk because both are linked to smoking, but yellow fingers themselves are not the cause of cancer. Similarly, ice cream consumption correlates with shark attacks, but one does not cause the other; both are influenced by a third factor, such as warmer weather.

Causation implies that one event is the reason for another, meaning that manipulating the cause should produce a change in the effect. In contrast, prediction is about forecasting outcomes based on observed patterns without needing to understand the underlying mechanism. While causality implies prediction (if X causes Y, then X will predict Y), prediction does not imply causality. A variable can be a strong predictor without being a causal factor, and interventions based on predictive associations may fail if they target non-causal variables.

To infer causation, researchers often rely on controlled experiments where the suspected cause is manipulated to observe its effect on the outcome, though ethical and practical constraints can limit such studies. Even in well-designed experiments, confounding factors or unintended effects can lead to incorrect causal conclusions. Therefore, establishing causality requires more than just statistical association; it involves considering temporal order, ruling out confounders, and often using multiple lines of evidence, such as mechanistic studies or triangulation across different research designs.

Me,

So when I read that I just overposted you, because I just really love showing the scriptures and not philosphising (did I spell that right?)

I just needed an in, to th forgiveness thread, and when you said, "Judas" I thought "perfect" and just sprang off your post without really minding what you were talking about.

 

[Muna]

@quietthinker I also asked AI the following question,

"Why would someone respond to the prophecy of Judas betrayal of the Lord and his condemnation with 'prediction does not equal causation"

A person might respond to the prophecy of Judas's betrayal and his subsequent condemnation with "prediction does not equal causation" to emphasize that God's foreknowledge of Judas's actions does not imply that God caused or forced those actions. This response underscores the theological principle that God's omniscience—knowing the future—does not negate human free will. Judas still had the freedom to choose his actions, and his betrayal was a result of his own decisions, not a predetermined fate. While God knew Judas would betray Jesus, this knowledge did not determine Judas's choice; rather, it reflects God's perfect understanding of what Judas would freely decide. Therefore, Judas remains morally responsible for his actions, and his condemnation is justified because he freely chose to betray Jesus, even though God foresaw it. This distinction maintains the integrity of both divine foreknowledge and human responsibility.


Followed up by

A person might respond to the prophecy of Judas's betrayal and his subsequent condemnation with "prediction does not equal causation" to emphasize that God's foreknowledge of Judas's actions does not imply that God caused or forced those actions.
This response underscores the theological principle that God's omniscience—knowing the future—does not negate human free will.
Judas still had the freedom to choose his actions, and his betrayal was a result of his own decisions, not a predetermined fate.
While God knew Judas would betray Jesus, this knowledge did not determine Judas's choice; rather, it reflects God's perfect understanding of what Judas would freely decide.
Therefore, Judas remains morally responsible for his actions, and his condemnation is justified because he freely chose to betray Jesus, even though God foresaw it.
This distinction maintains the integrity of both divine foreknowledge and human responsibility.

And then I asked if AI can just state the obvious very simply

So when someone says "prediction does not equal causation," they mean: just because God knew Judas would betray Jesus doesn't mean God made Judas do it.

Me now,

So if that is what you wanted to tell me concerning Judas (as set forth by AI there) I can probably answer that.

My answer is,

I never stated "God made Judas do it" (and so we would be back to square one) Still not knowing what your response to me is all about as far as any of the scriptures I posted go.