THE LORD'S PRAYER: JESUS DIDN'T PRAY IT, SHOULD WE?

[Doug]

[Matthew 6:9 KJV] 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

We say this is the Lord's prayer, but Jesus didn't pray this prayer. Jesus instructed his disciples to pray in this manner.

[Matthew 6:10 KJV] 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

Believing Israel and the disciples are instructed to pray for the Davidic kingdom to come down from heaven. In the kingdom on earth Christ will reign from Jerusalem for a thousand years............[Isaiah 9:6-7 KJV] 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

We aren't looking for this kingdom for our inheritance, ours is in the heavenly places...........[1Corinthians 15:49 KJV] 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[Ephesians 2:6 KJV] 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
[2Timothy 4:18 KJV] 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[Matthew 6:11 KJV] 11 Give us this day our daily bread.

The disciples and believing Israel are to rely on God to provide food in the coming tribulation. In the tribulation the saints who will not receive the mark will be unable to buy or sell for food. God provided manna for food and in this prayer believing Israel will recognize there dependence on God for their sustenance........[Numbers 11:9 KJV] 9 And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.

[Matthew 6:12 KJV] 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Here is an instruction for prayer that highlights my assertion that this prayer was for Israel and not us. Israel was under covenant, under this covenant to be forgiven Israel had to forgive. We need to look no further to find what Jesus was talking about when he spoke of forgiveness for Israel. Right after this prayer Jesus gives instruction in regard to forgiveness............[Matthew 6:14-15 KJV] 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses........... Mark says the same about forgiveness..........[Mark 11:25 KJV] 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

In this dispensation, how are we to forgive?........[Ephesians 4:32 KJV] 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you...........We forgive others because we have been forgiven, not because it is conditional under covenant.............We have been forgiven all trespasses and don't have to ask for forgiveness.......... [Colossians 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Most importantly, the Lord Jesus never prayed this prayer, in spite of the fact that it is called the Lord's prayer. If Jesus did pray this he would be a sinner who had to ask for forgiveness.

We need to know what was for Israel, and what is for us. Should we repeat this prayer by rote, not considering the substance, nor the implications of praying this prayer?

 

[marks]

We need to know what was for Israel, and what is for us. Should we repeat this prayer by rote, not considering the substance, nor the implications of praying this prayer?

There is a particular part that inspires my prayer,

Matthew 6:13 KJV
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Lead us not into pierasmos "tempting/testing" but deliver us from evil.

I prefer God deliver me from the evil things in my life, rather than leading me into that affliction of testing during which I may endure, or I may sin. And even the enduring isn't fun, I'd rather just be delivered. God does that sometimes.

Much love!

 

[David Lamb]

[Matthew 6:9 KJV] 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

We say this is the Lord's prayer, but Jesus didn't pray this prayer. Jesus instructed his disciples to pray in this manner.

[Matthew 6:10 KJV] 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

Believing Israel and the disciples are instructed to pray for the Davidic kingdom to come down from heaven. In the kingdom on earth Christ will reign from Jerusalem for a thousand years............[Isaiah 9:6-7 KJV] 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

We aren't looking for this kingdom for our inheritance, ours is in the heavenly places...........[1Corinthians 15:49 KJV] 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[Ephesians 2:6 KJV] 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
[2Timothy 4:18 KJV] 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[Matthew 6:11 KJV] 11 Give us this day our daily bread.

The disciples and believing Israel are to rely on God to provide food in the coming tribulation. In the tribulation the saints who will not receive the mark will be unable to buy or sell for food. God provided manna for food and in this prayer believing Israel will recognize there dependence on God for their sustenance........[Numbers 11:9 KJV] 9 And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.

[Matthew 6:12 KJV] 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Here is an instruction for prayer that highlights my assertion that this prayer was for Israel and not us. Israel was under covenant, under this covenant to be forgiven Israel had to forgive. We need to look no further to find what Jesus was talking about when he spoke of forgiveness for Israel. Right after this prayer Jesus gives instruction in regard to forgiveness............[Matthew 6:14-15 KJV] 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses........... Mark says the same about forgiveness..........[Mark 11:25 KJV] 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

In this dispensation, how are we to forgive?........[Ephesians 4:32 KJV] 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you...........We forgive others because we have been forgiven, not because it is conditional under covenant.............We have been forgiven all trespasses and don't have to ask for forgiveness.......... [Colossians 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Most importantly, the Lord Jesus never prayed this prayer, in spite of the fact that it is called the Lord's prayer. If Jesus did pray this he would be a sinner who had to ask for forgiveness.

We need to know what was for Israel, and what is for us. Should we repeat this prayer by rote, not considering the substance, nor the implications of praying this prayer?

Although I don't believe, as you seem to, that the pattern of prayer Jesus gave to His first disciples is only intended for Jewish Christians, I do agree that the Lord's Prayer is a misnomer. His own well-known prayer is in John 17.

 

[Doug]

Although I don't believe, as you seem to, that the pattern of prayer Jesus gave to His first disciples is only intended for Jewish Christians, I do agree that the Lord's Prayer is a misnomer. His own well-known prayer is in John 17.

The main issue to me is praying to be forgiven on the basis of our forgiving others. That is a requirement under covenant. We arent under covenants.

 

[LoveYeshua]

[Matthew 6:9 KJV] 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

We say this is the Lord's prayer, but Jesus didn't pray this prayer. Jesus instructed his disciples to pray in this manner.

[Matthew 6:10 KJV] 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

Believing Israel and the disciples are instructed to pray for the Davidic kingdom to come down from heaven. In the kingdom on earth Christ will reign from Jerusalem for a thousand years............[Isaiah 9:6-7 KJV] 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

We aren't looking for this kingdom for our inheritance, ours is in the heavenly places...........[1Corinthians 15:49 KJV] 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[Ephesians 2:6 KJV] 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
[2Timothy 4:18 KJV] 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[Matthew 6:11 KJV] 11 Give us this day our daily bread.

The disciples and believing Israel are to rely on God to provide food in the coming tribulation. In the tribulation the saints who will not receive the mark will be unable to buy or sell for food. God provided manna for food and in this prayer believing Israel will recognize there dependence on God for their sustenance........[Numbers 11:9 KJV] 9 And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.

[Matthew 6:12 KJV] 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Here is an instruction for prayer that highlights my assertion that this prayer was for Israel and not us. Israel was under covenant, under this covenant to be forgiven Israel had to forgive. We need to look no further to find what Jesus was talking about when he spoke of forgiveness for Israel. Right after this prayer Jesus gives instruction in regard to forgiveness............[Matthew 6:14-15 KJV] 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses........... Mark says the same about forgiveness..........[Mark 11:25 KJV] 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

In this dispensation, how are we to forgive?........[Ephesians 4:32 KJV] 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you...........We forgive others because we have been forgiven, not because it is conditional under covenant.............We have been forgiven all trespasses and don't have to ask for forgiveness.......... [Colossians 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Most importantly, the Lord Jesus never prayed this prayer, in spite of the fact that it is called the Lord's prayer. If Jesus did pray this he would be a sinner who had to ask for forgiveness.

We need to know what was for Israel, and what is for us. Should we repeat this prayer by rote, not considering the substance, nor the implications of praying this prayer?

Jesus gave this prayer as an example for us all not only Israel here is the text;

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 6:7 And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard.

Mat 6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Mat 6:9 So then, this is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name.

Mat 6:10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’

Mat 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Mat 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.

He was teaching people HOW to pray just as simple as that. No need to make it more complicated than it is in reality. When we pray we must speak from the heart.

 

[LoveYeshua]

The main issue to me is praying to be forgiven on the basis of our forgiving others. That is a requirement under covenant. We arent under covenants.

yes , true believers of Christ are under the New covenant, they know this!

 

[Doug]

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 6:7 And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard.

Those who believe Paul's gospel dont have to pray for forgiveness as we are forgiven all trespasses. One can pray this if they want to place themselves under covenant.

 

[Doug]

yes , true believers of Christ are under the New covenant, they know this!

Paul doesnt teach we are under covenant. The new covenant will be made with the house of Judah and Israel

 

[LoveYeshua]

Those who believe Paul's gospel dont have to pray for forgiveness as we are forgiven all trespasses. One can pray this if they want to place themselves under covenant.

So you say Jesus was in error. Do you think Jesus did not know he would atone the sins of the world? It is the main reason he did come. Jesus forgiving us is also linked to HIS main message or Gospel to repent of our sins for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, The unrepentant will NOT inherit the Kingdom of heaven. I am glad you finally seem to study Christ, his ministry and what he did and preached, feel free if you have any questions about the synoptic gospels, I will help.

 

[David Lamb]

The main issue to me is praying to be forgiven on the basis of our forgiving others. That is a requirement under covenant. We arent under covenants.

I don't believe that God forgives anybody on the basis of their forgiving of others. As John Gill wrote on Matthew 6:12: "Now this is mentioned, not as if our forgiving others is the cause of God s forgiving us, or the model of it, or as setting him an example, or as if his and our forgiving were to be compared together, since these will admit of no comparison; but this is an argument founded upon God s own promise and grace, to forgive such who have compassion on their fellow creatures." Jesus was speaking to disciples, those who already believed in Him. As believers, they had already been forgiven by God; they were saved. A "fruit" of that was their forgiveness of others.

 

[Doug]

I don't believe that God forgives anybody on the basis of their forgiving of others.

Israel was under covenant......the covenant was conditional with if you do this then/if you dont then
The forgiveness under covenant was not for eternal life. God would not forgive them to be blameless to enter the kingdom

 

[LoveYeshua]

Israel was under covenant......the covenant was conditional with if you do this then/if you dont then
The forgiveness under covenant was not for eternal life. God would not forgive them to be blameless to enter the kingdom

Jesus teaches something different, Since Jesus is one with God I completely believe and trust him as should you.

 

[Doug]

Jesus teaches something different, Since Jesus is one with God I completely believe and trust him as should you.

Jesus upheld and taught the law
It was Jesus who said this...............[Mat 6:14-15 KJV] 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses...........this is conditional under the law

 

[amigo de christo]

Jesus teaches something different, Since Jesus is one with God I completely believe and trust him as should you.

always remember many who are under pauline give us another paul . PAUL FOLLOWED JESUS
as did peter and the others . Its men who twist things .

 

[LoveYeshua]

Jesus upheld and taught the law
It was Jesus who said this...............[Mat 6:14-15 KJV] 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses...........this is conditional under the law

describe the law that you say jesus was teaching please.

 

[LoveYeshua]

always remember many who are under pauline give us another paul . PAUL FOLLOWED JESUS
as did peter and the others . Its men who twist things .

yes but the way he wrote, unfortunately did not help, many are confused, and interpred in their own way

 

[Bob]

Thank you for the discussion.

Re asking forgiveness: even the most devote Christian might inadvertently hurt someone or something (e.g., trip and spill a hot drink, forget a promised task, . . . ). We should always take responsibility for our mistakes, make amends if needed, and ask forgiveness.

This is an essential characteristic of Love Thy Neighbor.

Did Jesus never inadvertently err? Consider Matthew 15: 21-28, and in particular verses 25-28. Did He not accept responsibility for His initial response and make amends?

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Blessings.

 

[Doug]

describe the law that you say jesus was teaching please.

[Gal 4:4 KJV] 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Jesus was under law in his ministry, the Mosaic law

 

[amigo de christo]

yes but the way he wrote, unfortunately did not help, many are confused, and interpred in their own way

wanna hear something so lovely .
I have zero problem with the way paul wrote . IT sure has helped me , AS HAS EVERY THING JESUS ever spoke
that was recorded in the gospels and in revleation . As well as EVERY word the writer of hebrews wrote
as james , as pe ter , as jude , as john .
ITS MEN that cloud things and only those who love to hear twisted things will sit under such men .
WHY COME
or in proper english
HOW COME i seem to love and beleive ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THAT BIBLE
now that is a question i have for every man , woman and child .
NOW WHY IS THAT .
How come i dont sit under pauline
How come i dont try and pit apostel against apostel
HOW COME i dont t ry and say OH certain things JESUS said apply ONLY TO JEWS
or was for another time , BUT RATHER BELEIVE THEM ALL and KNOW THEY ARE MEAT FOR MY SOUL
as was everything they all would write .
Allow me to introduce us to THE GRACE OF GOD and that grace DONT TRY AND OMIT ONE SINGLE WORD OF TRUTH .
and here you all might have thought i was gonna try and give me some kind of credit .
NO SIR . GOD DID THIS . what you are witnessing is the CHANGE GOD PUT UPON MY HEART .
I SHUN THE ALL INCLUSIVE INTERFAITH DOCTRINE TO HADES . and do feel free to ask my why that is as well .
WHY does a man who wont bend , wont omit , wont try and alter one word GOD INSPIRED in that bible
SO DARN ADAMANENT against the love so many are now in love and in bed with .
CAUSE IT BE OF SATAN and HIS WHORE
and it does naught but lead the decieved to the day of their own destruction . I will have no part with its unity
its kingdom , its love or its hope , i shall not trust in its god either , its presidents of either side for both do its will .
Many love to hear twisted things that suit their own hearts desires .
SHEEP , WELL THEY LOVE TRUTH . EVERY WORD OF GOD IS TRUTH

 

[Grailhunter]

[Matthew 6:9 KJV] 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

We say this is the Lord's prayer, but Jesus didn't pray this prayer. Jesus instructed his disciples to pray in this manner.

[Matthew 6:10 KJV] 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

Believing Israel and the disciples are instructed to pray for the Davidic kingdom to come down from heaven. In the kingdom on earth Christ will reign from Jerusalem for a thousand years............[Isaiah 9:6-7 KJV] 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

We aren't looking for this kingdom for our inheritance, ours is in the heavenly places...........[1Corinthians 15:49 KJV] 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[Ephesians 2:6 KJV] 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
[2Timothy 4:18 KJV] 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[Matthew 6:11 KJV] 11 Give us this day our daily bread.

The disciples and believing Israel are to rely on God to provide food in the coming tribulation. In the tribulation the saints who will not receive the mark will be unable to buy or sell for food. God provided manna for food and in this prayer believing Israel will recognize there dependence on God for their sustenance........[Numbers 11:9 KJV] 9 And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.

[Matthew 6:12 KJV] 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Here is an instruction for prayer that highlights my assertion that this prayer was for Israel and not us. Israel was under covenant, under this covenant to be forgiven Israel had to forgive. We need to look no further to find what Jesus was talking about when he spoke of forgiveness for Israel. Right after this prayer Jesus gives instruction in regard to forgiveness............[Matthew 6:14-15 KJV] 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses........... Mark says the same about forgiveness..........[Mark 11:25 KJV] 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

In this dispensation, how are we to forgive?........[Ephesians 4:32 KJV] 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you...........We forgive others because we have been forgiven, not because it is conditional under covenant.............We have been forgiven all trespasses and don't have to ask for forgiveness.......... [Colossians 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Most importantly, the Lord Jesus never prayed this prayer, in spite of the fact that it is called the Lord's prayer. If Jesus did pray this he would be a sinner who had to ask for forgiveness.

We need to know what was for Israel, and what is for us. Should we repeat this prayer by rote, not considering the substance, nor the implications of praying this prayer?

The Our Father appears in versus where Christ is saying not to say the same words over and over. What this is, is a template for prayers.