Theological Examination of the Rapture in Relation to the Great Tribulation

[JLB]

Theological Examination of the Rapture in Relation to the Great Tribulation​

The doctrine commonly referred to as the “pre-tribulation rapture” posits that Christ will secretly gather His faithful from the earth prior to a period of intense suffering and divine judgment, commonly labeled the tribulation. However, when the eschatological teachings of Jesus and the Apostolic witness are carefully surveyed, this concept finds no explicit support. Rather, Scripture consistently presents a chronology in which tribulation precedes the visible return of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect.

Christ’s Own Testimony Regarding the Sequence of Events​

Jesus, in His Olivet Discourse, delineates the signs of the end times and the final consummation. He explicitly connects cosmic disturbances and tribulation with His parousia (coming):

• Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV) states:
  “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened… and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels… and gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Here, the temporal marker “immediately after the tribulation” situates the gathering of the elect subsequent to, not prior to, the tribulation. The language of visibility—“they will see the Son of Man”—further underlines the public and manifest nature of this event, in contrast to the notion of a secret rapture preceding trials.
Jesus emphasizes both the inevitability of tribulation and the necessity of perseverance:

• John 16:33 (NKJV): “These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
• Matthew 24:42-44 (NKJV): “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming… Therefore you also be ready.”

From these passages, it is evident that disciples are called to endurance and vigilance, not to expect temporal exemption from the trials associated with the end times.

The Apostolic Witness in Revelation​

The visions of John in Revelation 7:14 (NKJV) provide a complementary perspective on the eschatological journey of the faithful:
“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
The passive construction “come out of” implies endurance through tribulation rather than removal prior to it. The purification of the elect, symbolized by the whitening of their robes, is intrinsically linked to their passage through the tribulation. This aligns coherently with Christ’s teaching that tribulation is an unavoidable aspect of the eschatological period for believers.

Theological Implications​

From a theological standpoint, the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture presents several incongruities when juxtaposed with the corpus of Jesus’ eschatological teaching:

• Chronological Integrity: Jesus consistently situates the gathering of the elect after tribulation, thereby suggesting a linear and inescapable progression rather than an escape from tribulation.
• Ethical and Spiritual Formation: Tribulation is presented not merely as punitive, but as formative and purifying. The endurance of trials cultivates the holiness and steadfastness of the elect—a process incompatible with pre-tribulation removal.
• Public Manifestation: The return of Christ is depicted as visible and undeniable. Any conception of a secret removal of the faithful prior to tribulation lacks scriptural corroboration from the eyewitness testimony of the Apostolic era.
• Redemptive Purpose: Tribulation also serves as the stage upon which the faithfulness of the elect is vindicated. The eschatological narrative emphasizes that salvation is not merely escape from adversity but participation in the triumph of Christ through it.

Hermeneutical Conclusion​

When interpreting eschatological passages, the sequence of events, the language of visibility, and the thematic function of tribulation must be taken as authoritative. The testimony of Jesus and the Apostles collectively affirms that:

• The tribulation is a historical and spiritual reality that precedes the gathering of the elect.
• Believers are not promised temporal exemption but are called to vigilance, endurance, and faithfulness.
• The eschatological culmination is public and vindicatory, encompassing the purification and glorification of the faithful through rather than before tribulation.

Consequently, the theological posture consistent with the words of Jesus and His disciples is that the rapture, understood as the gathering of the elect, occurs after or in the midst of tribulation, not as a secret pre-tribulational event.

Here is what Paul says…


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection and rapture occur at the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I usually don't get involved in these end of time discussions, but for the sake of it being known, and for your consideration, I will explain the general view of the Pre-tribe resurrection. I will also take any questions on the subject especially involving Matt. 24. But only in a controlled manner of discussion. No need for anyone to go crazy over this!

The Scripture is clear there are 2 main resurrections, actually there are several, but we won't get into that part now. We will concentrate on the 2 main resurrections, what they are and when they take place.

Bear with me there is much explaining to do!

Rev. 20:4-5
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

These are the tribulation martyrs and they are a part of the First Resurrection. Let's focus on this and pick up on the next resurrection that takes place 1000 years later. These would be "the rest of the dead that lived not again until the 1000 years were finished."

I said these are "part of the first resurrection" because notice what John says as he continues in 20:6,

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The first resurrection is only those who are saved, but only the tribulation saints are mentioned here. Where are the rest of the rest of the saved from the time of Adam to the tribulation?

They have already been raptured according to 1 Thes. 4 as Paul has described. They were "caught up" before the book of Revelation began to unfold. And they are part of the first resurrection that include only the saved, with the resurrection that takes place after the 1000 years being the resurrection of only the lost beginning in 20:11

Here is the pre-trib Rapture that takes place before the book of Revelation begins to unfold.

Rev. 4:1-2
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

This is when the saved from the time of Adam up to the tribulation are Raptured by illustration from John. It's what Paul described in 1 Thess. 4 being caught up.

The first resurrection takes place in phases before and after the tribulation, then after the 1000 years have expired the lost are raised up and judged per 20:11-15.

You cannot have a first resurrection preceded by a first resurrection. Protos, is first in time, place, order, sequence. The first resurrection is our resurrection. Secondly, you used Rev 4:1 as thee resurrection. Why didn’t John get a glorified body when he was supposed to be caught up? Where is the last trump there when 7 remain? Where is the voice of the arch Angel? Why are there no over coners standing in heaven? Christ said over comers would not be hurt the 2nd death to the 7 churches, yet the crystal sea is empty. The elders hold prayers of the saints. If they are the church, whose prayers are these? They arnt Tribulation saints cause the 1st seal isn’t opened yet. Too many holes.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Theological Examination of the Rapture in Relation to the Great Tribulation​

The doctrine commonly referred to as the “pre-tribulation rapture” posits that Christ will secretly gather His faithful from the earth prior to a period of intense suffering and divine judgment, commonly labeled the tribulation. However, when the eschatological teachings of Jesus and the Apostolic witness are carefully surveyed, this concept finds no explicit support. Rather, Scripture consistently presents a chronology in which tribulation precedes the visible return of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect.

Christ’s Own Testimony Regarding the Sequence of Events​

Jesus, in His Olivet Discourse, delineates the signs of the end times and the final consummation. He explicitly connects cosmic disturbances and tribulation with His parousia (coming):

• Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV) states:
  “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened… and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels… and gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Here, the temporal marker “immediately after the tribulation” situates the gathering of the elect subsequent to, not prior to, the tribulation. The language of visibility—“they will see the Son of Man”—further underlines the public and manifest nature of this event, in contrast to the notion of a secret rapture preceding trials.
Jesus emphasizes both the inevitability of tribulation and the necessity of perseverance:

• John 16:33 (NKJV): “These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
• Matthew 24:42-44 (NKJV): “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming… Therefore you also be ready.”

From these passages, it is evident that disciples are called to endurance and vigilance, not to expect temporal exemption from the trials associated with the end times.

The Apostolic Witness in Revelation​

The visions of John in Revelation 7:14 (NKJV) provide a complementary perspective on the eschatological journey of the faithful:
“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
The passive construction “come out of” implies endurance through tribulation rather than removal prior to it. The purification of the elect, symbolized by the whitening of their robes, is intrinsically linked to their passage through the tribulation. This aligns coherently with Christ’s teaching that tribulation is an unavoidable aspect of the eschatological period for believers.

Theological Implications​

From a theological standpoint, the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture presents several incongruities when juxtaposed with the corpus of Jesus’ eschatological teaching:

• Chronological Integrity: Jesus consistently situates the gathering of the elect after tribulation, thereby suggesting a linear and inescapable progression rather than an escape from tribulation.
• Ethical and Spiritual Formation: Tribulation is presented not merely as punitive, but as formative and purifying. The endurance of trials cultivates the holiness and steadfastness of the elect—a process incompatible with pre-tribulation removal.
• Public Manifestation: The return of Christ is depicted as visible and undeniable. Any conception of a secret removal of the faithful prior to tribulation lacks scriptural corroboration from the eyewitness testimony of the Apostolic era.
• Redemptive Purpose: Tribulation also serves as the stage upon which the faithfulness of the elect is vindicated. The eschatological narrative emphasizes that salvation is not merely escape from adversity but participation in the triumph of Christ through it.

Hermeneutical Conclusion​

When interpreting eschatological passages, the sequence of events, the language of visibility, and the thematic function of tribulation must be taken as authoritative. The testimony of Jesus and the Apostles collectively affirms that:

• The tribulation is a historical and spiritual reality that precedes the gathering of the elect.
• Believers are not promised temporal exemption but are called to vigilance, endurance, and faithfulness.
• The eschatological culmination is public and vindicatory, encompassing the purification and glorification of the faithful through rather than before tribulation.

Consequently, the theological posture consistent with the words of Jesus and His disciples is that the rapture, understood as the gathering of the elect, occurs after or in the midst of tribulation, not as a secret pre-tribulational event.

Quote
""From these passages, it is evident that disciples are called to endurance and vigilance, not to expect temporal exemption from the trials associated with the end times.""

They, and we, are promised tribulation.
The bride ESCAPES THE GT AS JESUS DECLARED.

LOT endured nothing if the Sodom judgement.
In fact his wife was killed over looking at it.
NOAH was oner a mile above the earth during the tribulation. Then returned AFTER THE TRIB.
POSTRIBBERS have no honest analogy of Noah. Show me any postrib Rapture teaching that incorporates all the components of Noah's example.
Hint....THERE ARE NONE.

No exemption ?
Lot, Noah, and the baby Jesus.
ALL REMOVED PRETRIB

 

[rebuilder 454]

Here is what Paul says…


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection and rapture occur at the Second Coming of Christ.

Matt 24 has 2 second comings.
Be true to the word.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, you didn’t address the verse. Heaven must receive him until the time of restoration of all things. He cannot leave heaven, depart from heaven or descend from heaven to meet us in the air until the restoration. That conflicts with a Pre-Trib timeline

Your thought harmonizes Perfectly with the pretrib rapture.
I have always incorporated Peter's sermon.

In the pretrib rapture, Jesus meets the bride in the air.
Never touches earth

In fact, there is another rapture in Rev 14.
AGAIN Jesus meets the main harvest Jews in the air also.

God's word is true.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Theological Examination of the Rapture in Relation to the Great Tribulation​

The doctrine commonly referred to as the “pre-tribulation rapture” posits that Christ will secretly gather His faithful from the earth prior to a period of intense suffering and divine judgment, commonly labeled the tribulation. However, when the eschatological teachings of Jesus and the Apostolic witness are carefully surveyed, this concept finds no explicit support. Rather, Scripture consistently presents a chronology in which tribulation precedes the visible return of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect.

Christ’s Own Testimony Regarding the Sequence of Events​

Jesus, in His Olivet Discourse, delineates the signs of the end times and the final consummation. He explicitly connects cosmic disturbances and tribulation with His parousia (coming):

• Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV) states:
  “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened… and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels… and gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Here, the temporal marker “immediately after the tribulation” situates the gathering of the elect subsequent to, not prior to, the tribulation. The language of visibility—“they will see the Son of Man”—further underlines the public and manifest nature of this event, in contrast to the notion of a secret rapture preceding trials.
Jesus emphasizes both the inevitability of tribulation and the necessity of perseverance:

• John 16:33 (NKJV): “These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
• Matthew 24:42-44 (NKJV): “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming… Therefore you also be ready.”

From these passages, it is evident that disciples are called to endurance and vigilance, not to expect temporal exemption from the trials associated with the end times.

The Apostolic Witness in Revelation​

The visions of John in Revelation 7:14 (NKJV) provide a complementary perspective on the eschatological journey of the faithful:
“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
The passive construction “come out of” implies endurance through tribulation rather than removal prior to it. The purification of the elect, symbolized by the whitening of their robes, is intrinsically linked to their passage through the tribulation. This aligns coherently with Christ’s teaching that tribulation is an unavoidable aspect of the eschatological period for believers.

Theological Implications​

From a theological standpoint, the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture presents several incongruities when juxtaposed with the corpus of Jesus’ eschatological teaching:

• Chronological Integrity: Jesus consistently situates the gathering of the elect after tribulation, thereby suggesting a linear and inescapable progression rather than an escape from tribulation.
• Ethical and Spiritual Formation: Tribulation is presented not merely as punitive, but as formative and purifying. The endurance of trials cultivates the holiness and steadfastness of the elect—a process incompatible with pre-tribulation removal.
• Public Manifestation: The return of Christ is depicted as visible and undeniable. Any conception of a secret removal of the faithful prior to tribulation lacks scriptural corroboration from the eyewitness testimony of the Apostolic era.
• Redemptive Purpose: Tribulation also serves as the stage upon which the faithfulness of the elect is vindicated. The eschatological narrative emphasizes that salvation is not merely escape from adversity but participation in the triumph of Christ through it.

Hermeneutical Conclusion​

When interpreting eschatological passages, the sequence of events, the language of visibility, and the thematic function of tribulation must be taken as authoritative. The testimony of Jesus and the Apostles collectively affirms that:

• The tribulation is a historical and spiritual reality that precedes the gathering of the elect.
• Believers are not promised temporal exemption but are called to vigilance, endurance, and faithfulness.
• The eschatological culmination is public and vindicatory, encompassing the purification and glorification of the faithful through rather than before tribulation.

Consequently, the theological posture consistent with the words of Jesus and His disciples is that the rapture, understood as the gathering of the elect, occurs after or in the midst of tribulation, not as a secret pre-tribulational event.

Quote
"". The purification of the elect, symbolized by the whitening of their robes, is intrinsically linked to their passage through the tribulation. This aligns coherently with Christ’s teaching that tribulation is an unavoidable aspect of the eschatological period for believers"""

You are close..but miss it massively.

The pretrib doctrine correctly incorporates the actual verses that steer us away from wrong conclusions, as you are demonstrating.
Ever wonder why Post tribulation, rapture teachers completely leave out the fact that the Antichrist kills all the saints on the face of the Earth.?
Ever wonder why post tribulation rapture teachers leave out the fact that the Mark is mandatory, and all that refused the mark are martyred?
Ever wonder why post tribulation teachers change the fact that in Matthew 24 and 25 that only half the church is taken?
Do you ever wonder why all that is left out? Do you ever wonder why the post tribulation rapture teachers cannot correctly unpack the Virgin parable?
Try and find any post tribulation teachers then include all that.
I can tell you right now their are not any of them that include the verses that explain that very concept that you're trying to comprehend.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You cannot have a first resurrection preceded by a first resurrection. Protos, is first in time, place, order, sequence. The first resurrection is our resurrection. Secondly, you used Rev 4:1 as thee resurrection. Why didn’t John get a glorified body when he was supposed to be caught up? Where is the last trump there when 7 remain? Where is the voice of the arch Angel? Why are there no over coners standing in heaven? Christ said over comers would not be hurt the 2nd death to the 7 churches, yet the crystal sea is empty. The elders hold prayers of the saints. If they are the church, whose prayers are these? They arnt Tribulation saints cause the 1st seal isn’t opened yet. Too many holes.

Jesus and the patriarchs are the FIRSTFRUITS of the FIRST resurrection.

Really???
That has to be changed by postribbers also?

Yep...and they do that for a reason.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Quote
""From these passages, it is evident that disciples are called to endurance and vigilance, not to expect temporal exemption from the trials associated with the end times.""

They, and we, are promised tribulation.
The bride ESCAPES THE GT AS JESUS DECLARED.

LOT endured nothing if the Sodom judgement.
In fact his wife was killed over looking at it.
NOAH was oner a mile above the earth during the tribulation. Then returned AFTER THE TRIB.
POSTRIBBERS have no honest analogy of Noah. Show me any postrib Rapture teaching that incorporates all the components of Noah's example.
Hint....THERE ARE NONE.

No exemption ?
Lot, Noah, and the baby Jesus.
ALL REMOVED PRETRIB

The flood and end times are two distinct events, the first was an extinction event, it is not the same with the end time event, where millions will die but not all mankind as GOD will not permit that all mankind be extinguished as revealed by Christ;
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

We have to remember that God said ;
Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

Gen 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:

Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Gen 9:17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

Jesus said that during the great tribulation, the suffering will be so great that no one would survive if those days were not shortened, but for the sake of the elect, God will shorten them Matthew 24:22. This means the chosen ones of God will still be on earth at that time, and the shortening of those days is for their protection. Jesus also explained that it is only after the tribulation that He will appear in the clouds with power and glory and send His angels to gather His elect from all parts of the earth (Matthew 24:29–31). This shows clearly that they will not be taken away before the time of trouble but will be gathered when He returns.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The book of Revelation helps us understand how God will care for His faithful during that period. It says that the woman, which represents God’s faithful people, will flee into the wilderness to a place prepared by God, where she will be fed and protected for a time, away from the serpent’s reach (Revelation 12:6,14). This is not a rapture to heaven but a sign of divine protection on earth, as God once protected Israel in the desert after they came out of Egypt. So while the world will face great distress, God’s people will have a place of safety prepared for them.

In the end, when the tribulation is finished and the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven, Jesus will return, and the angels will gather His faithful ones. The elect will not be taken out of the world before the tribulation, but they will be watched over, strengthened, and finally delivered by Jesus Himself at His coming. The promise is that those who endure to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13).

Blessings

 

[No Pre-TB]

Your thought harmonizes Perfectly with the pretrib rapture.

No they don't. The Bible is crystal clear,

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Which means Christ cannot leave Heaven to descend to meet us in the air before tribulation. He can leave Heaven at the restoration which occurs after the tribulation and after all things have been removed/destroyed when there will be a restoration. Nothing is restored before your 1st seal is opened.

Ellicott: Etymologically, it conveys the thought of restoration to an earlier and better state, rather than that of simple consummation or completion, which the immediate context seems, in some measure, to suggest. It finds an interesting parallel in the “new heavens and new earth”—involving, as they do, a restoration of all things to their true order—of 2Peter 3:13.

Barnes: In this sense the passage means that the heavens must receive the Lord Jesus until all thrums spoken by the prophets in relation to his work, his reign, the spread of the gospel, the triumph of religion, etc., shall have been fulfilled. It also conveys the idea of the predicted recovery of the world from sin, and the restoration of peace and order;

Jamieson-Fausett-Brown: restitution of all things—comprehending, probably, the rectification of all the disorders of the fall.

Matthew Poole: But the end of the world will be a time of restitution of all things unto man especially, who shall be then restored unto God, and to a blessed immortality:

Gill: all promises and prophecies concerning the bringing in the fulness of the Gentiles, and the conversion of the Jews, and so the gathering in all the elect of God; and concerning all the glorious things spoken of the church of Christ in the latter day

That is impossible on a Pre-Trib timeline before persecution, destruction, the man of sin or the image setup.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Jesus and the patriarchs are the FIRSTFRUITS of the FIRST resurrection.

Really???
That has to be changed by postribbers also?

Yep...and they do that for a reason.

There is only 1 First resurrection.

First
Phonetic Spelling: (pro'-tos)
KJV: before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former
NASB: first, foremost, leading men, before, outer, first of all, leading

No resurrection can proceed the protos resurrection. And only the protos resurrection is the one that the 2nd death will not hurt.

In Rev 2:11 to the church of Smyrna, Christ says to the Christians: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Only those in the protos resurrection overcome the 2nd death per

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Charlie24]

You cannot have a first resurrection preceded by a first resurrection. Protos, is first in time, place, order, sequence. The first resurrection is our resurrection. Secondly, you used Rev 4:1 as thee resurrection. Why didn’t John get a glorified body when he was supposed to be caught up? Where is the last trump there when 7 remain? Where is the voice of the arch Angel? Why are there no over coners standing in heaven? Christ said over comers would not be hurt the 2nd death to the 7 churches, yet the crystal sea is empty. The elders hold prayers of the saints. If they are the church, whose prayers are these? They arnt Tribulation saints cause the 1st seal isn’t opened yet. Too many holes.

There is a resurrection of the Just, and a resurrection of the Unjust.

The First resurrection is all of the Just. The dead that "lived not again until the 1000 years are expired" is the resurrection of the Unjust.

These resurrection are separated by 1000 years.

Do you agree with this?

 

[LoveYeshua]

the question was not intended for me nonetheless I answer it. Yes, this teaching is true according to the words of Jesus and the Revelation given by God. The Bible clearly shows there are two resurrections: one for the just and one for the unjust, and they are separated by a thousand years.

Jesus Himself said in John 5:28–29, “Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” Here Jesus spoke plainly of two resurrections, one for life and one for judgment.

The book of Revelation describes this same truth more precisely. In Revelation 20:4–6, John saw those who had been faithful to Christ and did not worship the beast. He wrote, “And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power.” These verses show that the first resurrection belongs only to the righteous, the just who overcame through faith and obedience. They are raised to reign with Christ during the thousand years.

After that time, the resurrection of the unjust takes place. Revelation 20:11–15 describes the great white throne judgment, where “the dead, small and great,” stand before God and are judged according to their works. This is the second resurrection, the resurrection of condemnation, for those who did not obey the truth and whose names are not written in the Book of Life.

The prophets of the Old Testament also spoke of this separation. Daniel 12:2 says, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.” This again shows two distinct outcomes for those raised from the dead.

Therefore, the Word of God confirms that there will be two resurrections. The first resurrection is for the just, those who loved God, kept His commandments, and followed His Son. They are blessed and will reign with Christ during the thousand years. The second resurrection, which comes after the thousand years, is for the unjust, who are raised for judgment and the second death.

There is a clear and holy order, first, the resurrection of life for the righteous; then, a thousand years later, the resurrection of condemnation for the wicked. This is the plain teaching of Jesus, the prophets, and the Revelation of God.

 

[Charlie24]

the question was not intended for me nonetheless I answer it. Yes, this teaching is true according to the words of Jesus and the Revelation given by God. The Bible clearly shows there are two resurrections: one for the just and one for the unjust, and they are separated by a thousand years.

Jesus Himself said in John 5:28–29, “Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” Here Jesus spoke plainly of two resurrections, one for life and one for judgment.

The book of Revelation describes this same truth more precisely. In Revelation 20:4–6, John saw those who had been faithful to Christ and did not worship the beast. He wrote, “And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power.” These verses show that the first resurrection belongs only to the righteous, the just who overcame through faith and obedience. They are raised to reign with Christ during the thousand years.

After that time, the resurrection of the unjust takes place. Revelation 20:11–15 describes the great white throne judgment, where “the dead, small and great,” stand before God and are judged according to their works. This is the second resurrection, the resurrection of condemnation, for those who did not obey the truth and whose names are not written in the Book of Life.

The prophets of the Old Testament also spoke of this separation. Daniel 12:2 says, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.” This again shows two distinct outcomes for those raised from the dead.

Therefore, the Word of God confirms that there will be two resurrections. The first resurrection is for the just, those who loved God, kept His commandments, and followed His Son. They are blessed and will reign with Christ during the thousand years. The second resurrection, which comes after the thousand years, is for the unjust, who are raised for judgment and the second death.

There is a clear and holy order, first, the resurrection of life for the righteous; then, a thousand years later, the resurrection of condemnation for the wicked. This is the plain teaching of Jesus, the prophets, and the Revelation of God.

Looks like the same teacher taught us!

 

[Taken]

Theological Examination of the Rapture in Relation to the Great Tribulation​

The doctrine commonly referred to as the “pre-tribulation rapture” posits that Christ will secretly gather His faithful from the earth prior to a period of intense suffering

“A” Period of Intense suffering…is not quite accurate.
There are 21 Judgements…Each increasing with Severity over a course of 7 years.

and divine judgment,

“Divine” Judgement is Judgement “Authorized by God, WHO IS Devine…

However the The Three Sets of Judgements 7 (seals), 7 (trumps), 7 (bowls/vials) =21
Are NOT ALL “FROM the DEVINE”… yet Allowed by Him.

The KEY … is WHAT, WHO and WHY regarding the 21 Judgements.

WHAT…Seals.
From WHO…Christ the Lord Jesus
Upon WHO…They Alive on Earth
WHY…Rejection of Him.

WHAT…Trumps.
From WHO…Satan
Upon WHO…They Alive on Earth
WHY…Rejection of him.

WHAT…Bowls/ Vials
From WHO…God
Upon WHO…They Alive on Earth
WHY…Rejection of Him.

KEY phrase…”They Alive ON EARTH” !
(key notation…They alive ON EARTH… WITHOUT the MARK of God visibly on their Forehead or Hand)

FYI… the MARK of God…shall BE ON a mans “NEW Restored risen Body.”
FYI…the MARK of “Satan / Devil” shall BE ON a mans “old / aka Natural Body.”

Rapture BEFORE the Tribulation Days (Sent Down from Heaven)…Applies Expressly TO…THEY ON UPON the Earth…WHO…Freely, Wisely, Chose, TO Accept the Lord God Almighty’s OFFERING…
“TO Be… EXCLUDED, ESCAPED, DELIVERED… FROM…ALL the Coming 21 Tribulation Judgements”

HOW…?
Nothing new..Same manner in which Faithful Noah and his Family (8 persons) were excluded, escaped, delivered … FROM the First Great Tribulation Sent down from Heaven UPON the whole Earth and it’s inhabitants UPON the Earth!..
HOW…?
* Noah and Family “prepared” according to Gods Word / Instruction.
* Faithful God Caused The Earth (Dry Land), to become Covered with WET water.
* Faithful Noah, family IN Ark, Rose UP, UP, UP, Above the Earth, the Water, the Mountain Tops, TO: the clouds of the Lower Heavens.

Nothing New… (Ecc. 1-9)
They Alive (or Bodily Dead) IN Christ are NOT Appointed to SUFFER ANY of the END Days Tribulations or Wrath Once Again to Be SENT DOWN from Heaven.
WHY?
BECAUSE “THEY” have ALREADY…freely chosen TO:
Freely Submit and Give their Bodily Life, their soul, their spirit TO…the Lord God Almighty.

God IS JUST.
He DOES NOT… correct, punish, subject to His Anger… men who Faithfully Believe and Willingly Lay down their OWN Life to Be WITH Him Forever!

commonly labeled the tribulation. However, when the eschatological teachings of Jesus and the Apostolic witness are carefully surveyed, this concept finds no explicit support.

False.
An Escape, Deliverance, FOR the CONFESSED FAITHFUL, is Expressly Taught Revealed.

Rather, Scripture consistently presents a chronology in which tribulation precedes the visible return of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect.

Visible Return of the Son of man…?
Absolutely!

What does THAT ^ have to DO WITH;
The Lord … Not on Earth?
The Lord … Descending from High Heaven to The Lower Heavens (clouds)…Not on Earth?
The Lord … Calling UP TO Him … His Faithful From the Earth…IN THEIR new Body’s?

The Lord … RETURNING TO, Sitting ON a WHITE Cloud…in the BODILY Appearance of THE Son of Man, for All On Earth TO See?

Christ the Lord Jesus, shall Be Seen By All Human Eyes…
However…Human Eyes SHALL “SEE” ONLY the Lord… In the Likeness AS a human Son of man.

Human Eyes ON Earth…Shall NOT SEE…
The Thousands of holy Angels WITH Him…!

Human Eyes ON Earth… Shall NOT SEE…
The Thousands of wholly, perfected Saints WITH Him…!

Nothing!

During the Trib sent down from Heaven…
Do ANY humans, bodily Die? Yes!
Do ANY humans come INTO Belief, BeFORE they Bodily Die? Yes!

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT ( according to WHAT Scripture Reveals ) WILL Happen TO SUCH specific men?

Too bad, Too Late, Boo Hoo, So Sad? No.
“THEIR souls shall be Saved…Risen UP to Heaven”…

1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Christ Jesus Shall “Save and Gather their souls ON Earth.”
God in Heaven Shall “Accept their Saved Souls IN Heaven”.

Rev 7:
[13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Christ’s Own Testimony Regarding the Sequence of Events​

Jesus, in His Olivet Discourse, delineates the signs of the end times and the final consummation. He explicitly connects cosmic disturbances and tribulation with His parousia (coming):

• Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV) states:
  “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened… and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels… and gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

[Here, the temporal marker “immediately after the tribulation”

No… Specific… Those Days Tribulations 7 (Seals)

situates the gathering of the elect subsequent to, not prior to, the tribulation. The language of visibility—“they will see the Son of Man”—further underlines the public and manifest nature of this event, in contrast to the notion of a secret rapture preceding trials.

The Son of man… Shall be Seen by Human Eyes…
They “WITH” Him… are no Longer “Human”…
(Flesh and Blood)

1 Thes. 4:

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

They IN CHRIST are already Redeemed…Raptured UP… and Forever With The Lord, wherever He is So are THEY… even when He Returns TO Earth!

Earth is dry land.
Heaven is not Earth.
Clouds are Not Earth.
The Lord IN the Clouds IS NOT the Lord having Returned TO the Earth.

“Those Days” of Tribulation are Specific Days.

Your eagerness causes you to skip and skim too many SPECIFIC highlighted step by step points.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[LoveYeshua]

Your eagerness causes you to skip and skim too many SPECIFIC highlighted step by step points.

this was intended as a forum text, please realize that in general people will not read above one page, so of course it is condensed and quite a lot is missing.

thank you for your contribution, is there a point in particular you wish to discuss, it is better is we discuss one at a time. Pick one.

Cheers.

 

[Taken]

this was intended as a forum text, please realize that in general people will not read above one page, so of course it is condensed and quite a lot is missing.

thank you for your contribution, is there a point in particular you wish to discuss, it is better is we discuss one at a time. Pick one.

Cheers.

Sure.
WHY, (according to Scripture) would/ does God WANT men “IN Christ”… whom also Have “Christ IN Them”…WANT Christ (in them)
To Suffer…
Tribulations or Wrath From Heaven?

Glory To God,
Taken

 

[LoveYeshua]

Sure.
WHY, (according to Scripture) would/ does God WANT men “IN Christ”… whom also Have “Christ IN Them”…WANT Christ (in them)
To Suffer…
Tribulations or Wrath From Heaven?

Glory To God,
Taken

provide the scrioture so we can examine

 

[rebuilder 454]

The flood and end times are two distinct events, the first was an extinction event, it is not the same with the end time event, where millions will die but not all mankind as GOD will not permit that all mankind be extinguished as revealed by Christ;
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

We have to remember that God said ;
Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

Gen 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:

Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Gen 9:17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

Jesus said that during the great tribulation, the suffering will be so great that no one would survive if those days were not shortened, but for the sake of the elect, God will shorten them Matthew 24:22. This means the chosen ones of God will still be on earth at that time, and the shortening of those days is for their protection. Jesus also explained that it is only after the tribulation that He will appear in the clouds with power and glory and send His angels to gather His elect from all parts of the earth (Matthew 24:29–31). This shows clearly that they will not be taken away before the time of trouble but will be gathered when He returns.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The book of Revelation helps us understand how God will care for His faithful during that period. It says that the woman, which represents God’s faithful people, will flee into the wilderness to a place prepared by God, where she will be fed and protected for a time, away from the serpent’s reach (Revelation 12:6,14). This is not a rapture to heaven but a sign of divine protection on earth, as God once protected Israel in the desert after they came out of Egypt. So while the world will face great distress, God’s people will have a place of safety prepared for them.

In the end, when the tribulation is finished and the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven, Jesus will return, and the angels will gather His faithful ones. The elect will not be taken out of the world before the tribulation, but they will be watched over, strengthened, and finally delivered by Jesus Himself at His coming. The promise is that those who endure to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13).

Blessings

Jesus said " before the flood, one taken, one left" ( 50% taken)
A few sentences later Jesus confirmed the same 50% taken.
Jesus said "Before the flood...watch and be ready."
Wanna know why postribbers leave that out?
There is a reason.

Note that their main banner and pillar is "after". They pull that word like a gunslinger.
Nevermind the context of "after".
Context is NEVER applied.
Show me ANY postrib teacher that applies the CONTEXT OF "ONE TAKEN", OR THE "after the trib" verse.

Ahem....that CHANGES the ENTIRE rapture view.

We both know mat 24 has 2 comings. It is beyond obvious.
Postribs have misplaced that chapter thousands of times. Now it is "truth" to them.

Leave out context, and you WILL be deceived.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Looks like the same teacher taught us!

The gwtj has the entire planet resurrected and judged.
Some pass through and some condemned.

The first resurrection is a harvest.
Harvest is 3 parts.
Jesus and those from paradise are first resurrection firstfruits.
Then main harvest, the bride.
Then Rev 14 the jews.

Postrib rapture doctrine is a doctrine of omission.
They have such limited verses to go by.
Tons of verses left out.

Why do they leave out the harvest, the bride, and the wife?
The wife is the Jews.
The bride is the church.
Harvest is gathering.

I have yet to see them discern the 144k.

The postrib doctrine skips what is necessary for understanding.

Their investment in that doctrine is massive .
That is why they omit and rebel against the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

the question was not intended for me nonetheless I answer it. Yes, this teaching is true according to the words of Jesus and the Revelation given by God. The Bible clearly shows there are two resurrections: one for the just and one for the unjust, and they are separated by a thousand years.

Jesus Himself said in John 5:28–29, “Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” Here Jesus spoke plainly of two resurrections, one for life and one for judgment.

The book of Revelation describes this same truth more precisely. In Revelation 20:4–6, John saw those who had been faithful to Christ and did not worship the beast. He wrote, “And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power.” These verses show that the first resurrection belongs only to the righteous, the just who overcame through faith and obedience. They are raised to reign with Christ during the thousand years.

After that time, the resurrection of the unjust takes place. Revelation 20:11–15 describes the great white throne judgment, where “the dead, small and great,” stand before God and are judged according to their works. This is the second resurrection, the resurrection of condemnation, for those who did not obey the truth and whose names are not written in the Book of Life.

The prophets of the Old Testament also spoke of this separation. Daniel 12:2 says, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.” This again shows two distinct outcomes for those raised from the dead.

Therefore, the Word of God confirms that there will be two resurrections. The first resurrection is for the just, those who loved God, kept His commandments, and followed His Son. They are blessed and will reign with Christ during the thousand years. The second resurrection, which comes after the thousand years, is for the unjust, who are raised for judgment and the second death.

There is a clear and holy order, first, the resurrection of life for the righteous; then, a thousand years later, the resurrection of condemnation for the wicked. This is the plain teaching of Jesus, the prophets, and the Revelation of God.

All that fits pretrib rapture.
100% perfect fit.