Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man
- Thread starter WPM
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
What you show is how biased and displayed an antagonistic attitude from the very first page. Here is the discussion from pg 1 to refresh your memory.
TribulationSigns said:
What the Scripture nowhere support is that the Devil is a supernatural being that was once a good angel in Heaven, but was cast out of heaven and now (sorta) omnipresent where he is able to inhabit reptiles and billions of unsaved people on Earth simultaneously...
Look ... Christ talked to and rebuked so many evil spirits in men when He came to Israel to redeem them, all symbolizing not that there was a bunch of supernatural beings that had taken over their bodies making these people insane, physically ill or they were physically necromancers, but that in their spirit they were evil.
rwb said:
Truth is that I've come to believe lately is that God did not create Satan at all. Not as evil, nor as angel of God who disobeyed God and became an evil spirit.
rwb said:
I do NOT deny Satan is spirit, not a spirit, but spirit.
The only personhood that Satan can and does achieve is when he takes up residence within the hearts and minds of humans.
TribulationSigns said:
The serpent — also called Satan or the Devil — represents the spirit of man, the spirit of disobedience.
TribulationSigns said:
what is called “Satan” in each person is their own rebellious spirit — the nature inherited from Adam’s fall. It is not “one great red dragon” controlling everyone, but the collective manifestation of human depravity.
This was the discussion that continued from another thread. To this you began your attacks and mischaracterizations of what was said.
Here is your offensive reply:
""This is more in line with modern liberal Atheistic Psychology thinking today or established Christadelphianism than biblical Christianity.
The modern psychological model
The modern psychological model views the symptoms described in biblical narratives—such as speaking in multiple voices, exhibiting different personalities, and displaying extreme behavioral changes—as consistent with dissociative identity disorder rather than literal demonic possession. This interpretation is not universally accepted, as some theological perspectives maintain that demon possession is a real spiritual phenomenon distinct from psychological conditions.
Christadelphians
Christadelphians do not believe in a supernatural, personal devil, but rather view the "devil" and "Satan" as personifications of sin, evil human nature, and temptation. They interpret these terms to represent the sinful inclinations within individuals, or sometimes a group of people or a political power acting as an opponent. According to this belief, sin originates from within a person's own desires, and the "devil" is not an external being with magical powers, but a metaphorical representation of the struggle against God's will.
The truth!
Do you realize, Satan is not a physical being? He is an angel. He is an invisible spirit. He is a real demonic angelic entity. He is not an influence. Even though Satan is an angel of darkness, 2 Corinthians 11:14 tells us that "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
Angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:14). Demons are fallen angels. They operate in the invisible realm. Their allegiance is to Satan. When the Bible talks about the activity of the devil, it sometimes includes the phrase “and his angels.” They are depicted as a collective whole. They move and fight as a unitary army. You cannot divide Satan from the fate of his angels. For example, Scripture describes them in Matthew 25:41 as “the devil and his angels,” in Revelation 12:7 as “the dragon … and his angels,” and in Revelation 12:9 as “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan … and his angels.”
Job 1:6-7: "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
We can see how the demonic host operates as a collective whole.
Demons are fallen angels
Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
Jud 1:6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates: “God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Gr. tartaroo], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”
Hello! This is talking about angels that sinned at the beginning and therefore fell. Adam and Eve were not angels. They are not held in "everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” God redeemed them. He made an atoning sacrifice for them in the Garden and gave them a righteous covering. Who else is this speaking about than Satan and his demons?
Revelation 12:1-4 shows Satan and his devils being eternally evicted from heaven. Interestingly the demonic angels are depicted as “stars.” It reads: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon ... And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.”
In Revelation 12:4, 1/3 of the angels sided with Satan in his rebellion. They sided with him when he fell, and are part of the kingdom of darkness.
Job 38:6-7 tells us, speaking about the beginning of time, “Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
Revelation 9:1 says: “I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the abyss.”
It seems correct to view the flying star in view here as an elect angel. Remember, the key or authority no longer belongs to Satan. He was defeated. Christ and His angels exercise that now within the invisible realm. We exercise it upon the earth.
It is clear that stars are used by John in Revelation as symbols of angels. A falling star is a common easily-recognized natural symbol that is used in a spiritual way here to describe an elect angel descending from heaven before the end of time to open the pit to release Satan and his demons from their restraint in order to restrict the great commission." [end quote]
You label but you never prove! Instead you make ridiculous comments, like "
The Truth - according to you: "Do you realize, Satan is not a physical being? He is an angel. He is an invisible spirit. He is a real demonic angelic entity. He is not an influence. Even though Satan is an angel of darkness, 2 Corinthians 11:14 tells us that "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
Of course you don't prove what you allege because you cannot! Instead you twist what was said and continue to cling to the opinion that Satan is a fallen angel. And then you claim that Satan is not an influence over mankind.
You lack understanding of the spiritual realm of devils and angels, and then try to hoist lacking understanding on those who have shown they have superior understanding of these things than you. And some of you wonder why I give likes and loves to replies from one who shows very good spiritual understanding, while you remain locked in mythology, and tradition of men whose doctrine is built upon what they think, guess and feel. Because it certainly does not come from the Bible.
Of course you have no problem spiritually discerning the prophets of Old when speaking to premillennialists and dispensationalists as you explain to them how the prophets of Old often speak to Israel of the flesh, with a message that must be understood is for Israel of faith that includes man from every nation of the world. I guess it all depends on who the spiritualizing comes from?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Where in scripture does it ever teach that the spirits of lost humans go anywhere except for Hades/hell? I'm sorry, but the idea of demons being the spirits of lost humans is utterly ludicrous.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
How does the idea of Satan disobeying and rebelling against God make him more powerful than God? That makes no sense whatsoever.I suppose this is what one would expect from someone who believes God created Satan to be good, but Satan proved he was more powerful than God through disobedience and became evil!
That would be like saying children are more powerful than their parents because of disobeying them, which is obviously not the case.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Where did WPM ever say that you are damned because of your belief about this particular topic? He never did. He's not even sure what all your beliefs are relating to this topic, which is why he asked you four simple clarifying questions. Why not just answer them? I think you are severely overreacting here. No one has said that you are damned because of your beliefs about this particular topic. Scripture certainly never says that salvation is based at least partly on having a perfect understanding of angels and demons.
According to some of you Satan was created an angel of God. Angels of God are not created with the ability to disobey God, they are all made to be ministering spirits sent to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation.
Hebrews 1:14 (KJV) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
We should all understand that Satan can only do what God ordains, therefore he cannot be a fallen angel of God who disobeyed God and became evil.
Parents aren't God! We do not make them to serve a very specific purpose as God did His ministering spirits, called angels of God.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
When did he ever do that and who else has done that? I don't believe he ever did and I don't believe anyone else has, either. To say that someone has a certain belief that is similar to what Christadelphians believe is not the same as calling someone a Christadelphian. I know I and other Amils (maybe even you?) have said on occasion that Premils believe similar to the Pharisees in terms of what their expectations are for Christ's kingdom. But, that doesn't mean we are calling them Pharisees.
Yes, he and anyone else who alleged I am Christadelphian, who denies the deity of Christ. Only God can save, and if Christ is not God, according to the doctrine of Christadelphians, then I am not saved.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Where does scripture say that angels were never capable of rebelling against God at any time? That verse is only referring to spirits/angels who serve God and is not referring to evil spirits/demons at all. So, how do you think that verse proves anything one way or another as it relates to evil spirits/demons?
If Satan only does what God ordains, then why will God punish him with eternal torment in the lake of fire? Do you believe that God punishes those who He has created for no real reason or does He punish those who rebel against Him and disobey Him?
I was showing how illogical your statement was and not intending to imply that parents are equal to God. I'm simply showing that someone being disobedient doesn't mean they are more powerful, as you are trying to claim in relation to angels disobeying God. Them disobeying God does not make them more powerful than God.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I'm not the one claiming Satan is a fallen angel of God, once good and turned evil through disobedience, you are! The onus to prove what you allege is on you, not me.
Exactly! The angels of God are ministering spirits. Devil and demonic spirits are not. Devils/demons/serpent/Satan are evil from the first moment the evil spirit called "serpent" was introduced into the garden of Eden. In the beginning evil, not they became evil, but are evil.
Because he is evil! He came from the darkness that covered the face of the deep. Darkness throughout Scripture is a metaphor for evil/death. That's why we're told Satan in the Hebrew Abaddon, and the Greek Apollyon, is the messenger king of the bottomless pit. Surely you wouldn't believe that an angel of God is the spirit of the bottomless pit?
Revelation 9:11 (KJV) And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
I know why you used this argument. I was simply pointing out how illogical it is! If Satan was made an angel of God who rebelled against God and became evil, then he would have to be more powerful than God, because the angels of God are sent to be ministering spirits to the heirs of salvation.
Begin with post #1 and following! Christadelphian is only one of the labels directed against fellow Christians.
You state your opinion as fact, and then think you have proved your point. This is a case-in-point. That is what you and TS have been doing in this debate. You present zero biblical evidence. When hard Scripture is given that refutes your error you rubbish it and play the victim - attributing claims to us that we never said. You seem to know you have nothing but trusting TS. The Scripture you post doesn't support your claim. That has been typical of your engagement on this matter. There is essentially no Scripture to explain. We can easily dismiss your joint speculations that are indeed found within the modern psychological model and Christadelphian teaching manuals.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Come on, rwb. Who do you think you're talking to here? The onus is on BOTH OF US to back up what we claim, not just on me. You are alleging that evil spirits like Satan were created to be evil rather than having been created very good like everything else that was created and then turning against God in disobedience. Yes, the onus is on me to prove what I allege, but the onus is also on you to prove what you allege. And I'm not seeing you doing that. But, I'm asking you to do that. Your response is to act as if I'm the only one who has to prove what I allege, as if you don't, and that's unacceptable to me.
Of course! But, that isn't what is being discussed here. We already know that we agree on that. The question is whether or not the devil and other demonic spirits were previously intended to be ministering spirits, but then rebelled against God.
Honestly, I feel I have scripture clearly on my side here.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
In a previous post, you indicated that you think "the angels that sinned" referred to humans who sinned in Noah's day, but if you read this passage carefully, you should see that "the angels that sinned" referenced in verse 4 are contrasted with "the ungodly" who sinned in Noah's day who are referenced in verse 5. So, you can't reasonably claim that "the angels that sinned" referenced in verse 4 above refer to human messengers that sinned in Noah's day.
In 2 Peter 2 verses 4, 5 and 6 Peter gives 3 separate examples of God's punishment against those who disobey Him. And, again, that means that the ungodly people of Noah's day are not the same as "the angels that sinned" referenced before they were. So, with that in mind, who are "the angels that sinned"? Unlike verses 5 and 6 which explicitly refer to the ungodly of Noah's day and the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah, verse 4 does not give any specifics about "the angels that sinned" in terms of what time period they lived in or where they were from. I believe that is because it's talking about certain angels of God who sinned against Him and who are now reserved for judgment. If it was referring to human beings, I believe it would have specifically identified them in some way like giving an indication of the time period they lived in, like it did in verse 5 when referring to the ungodly of Noah's day, or it would have referred to where they were from, like it does in verse 6 where it refers to the ungodly people of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Another major problem with your view is that you say that Satan was created evil which blatantly contradicts scripture saying that everything God created was very good. I have not seen any convincing argument from you to get around that.
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Everything that God made includes Satan and demons, right? They did not just appear out of nowhere. God made them. So, when they were created, they were "very good", not evil, as you claim.
Surely, Satan already existed before he is first referenced as talking to Eve in the garden of Eden, so while he was evil at that point, that does not mean he was always evil before that time.
In Genesis 1 it is referring to literal physical darkness and literal physical light that God created that shined into the darkness. Are you trying to claim that Genesis 1 refers to spiritual darkness and light rather than physical darkness and light?
Not one who is still an angel of God, but was formerly an angel of God.
LOL. It is 100% logical and you know it. It's only illogical from a perspective that is different from the context of my point. I clearly was not trying to equate parents with God and you know that. I clearly was saying that the ones who rebel against another are not stronger just because they rebel and are disobedient. But, that's what you're saying would be the case if Satan was an angel of God and rebelled against God. Rebellion does not imply being more powerful. That makes no sense.
You are speaking from your Calvinist perspective here and you already know what I think of Calvinism. But, we don't need to have that debate here. From my perspective that the angels had free will, it would not be the case that they were more powerful than God just because of rebelling against God any more than it would be the case that a child is more powerful than his or her parents because of disobeying his or her parents.
Last edited:
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The claim, beginning with post #1, is that people like you and TS share a particular belief in common with Christadelphians. In his case, he shares their belief that there is no such thing as an evil spirit being named Satan or evil spirit beings called demons (you disagree with him about that). In your case, you share their belief that there is no such thing as fallen angels. But, sharing one belief with Christadelphians doesn't make you a Christadelphian. No one has said that.
Amils, including myself, have said that Premils share a similar perspective with the Pharisees in terms of their understanding of the nature of Christ's kingdom. The Pharisees expected the Messiah to come and establish an earthly kingdom that would wield its power over all other earthly kingdoms including the Roman world empire itself. That's similar to what Premils are expecting Jesus to do when He returns. But, does that mean Amils are saying that Premils are unsaved like the Pharisees were? No, not at all. So, by saying you share one particular belief with Christadelphians doesn't mean anyone is saying you are a Christadelphian. You are a Christian becausee you belong to Christ and trust in Him. Your belief about this particular topic we're discussing doesn't change that.
Last edited:
This is the only part of the discussion I choose to reply to, because it sheds much light on why you continue to cling to the myth that Satan was created an angel of God and became Satan when he disobeyed God. I suspected this is why you and probably WPM also cannot be honest when discussing the spiritual realm. It would not matter how many passages and verses you are shown, you will continue to discard them and continue to cast dispersions against the character of anyone who dares to disagree with your unbiblical doctrines.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What do you mean by this exactly? You're being very vague here.
Again, what do you mean exactly by "this"? Explain what you're talking about here. And, what has happened to you? Or have you always been this judgmental and I just didn't realize it? You can say a lot of things about me. I have plenty of flaws just like everyone does. But, you cannot say that I'm being dishonest in this discussion. That is absolutely false. Why would I be dishonest about discussing scripture and the spiritual realm? I have no reason to be. May God strike me down right now if I'm being dishonest about the spiritual realm. Could I be mistaken about it in some way? Sure, I could. But, am I purposely denying anything about the spiritual realm and being dishonest about it? Absolutely not and I don't appreciate your false accusation of dishonesty at all.
Total nonsense. I am not discarding anything. If anyone is discarding many passages and verses that they are being shown, that would be you. You are not bothering to respond to most of my arguments. Why is that? You try to say the onus is on me to prove my view, but somehow the onus isn't also on you to prove yours? That's ridiculous.
Take 2 Peter 2:4, for example. I won't stoop to the level you have stooped to here and call you dishonest in your treatment of that verse since I don't believe you are dishonest, but I think your treatment of that verse is very biased. There is no indication in that verse whatsoever that it's talking about human beings there. In verses 5 and 6 it makes it clear that it's talking about human beings that disobeyed God and were punished by God, but that is not the case in verse 4.
Similar threads
