Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the Lord.

[ScottA]

Matthew 5

You're deleting scripture.
Don't do that.

Matthew 5 what verse(s)? Put it out there (and I will explain how it's not "deleting").

 

[ProverbsInPink]

Matthew 5 what verse(s)? Put it out there (and I will explain how it's not "deleting").

You said,So the difference is not that we should love our enemies, but to pray for them.

Matthew 5:44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

 

[ScottA]

You said,So the difference is not that we should love our enemies, but to pray for them.

Matthew 5:44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

You are correct in principle, but it is as I had already explained: To pray for our enemies is to love them--which is love to and for them, but not of them.

 

[Chrysostomos]

I think it will help you if you read the New Testament before joining a Bible discussion.
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I think it would help if you read this thread in full. I already addressed a similar question in post #69. I’ll repeat it again just for you.

For discussing what Jesus meant by "love your enemies," I have a separate thread: "Do Not Murder vs. You Must Kill: Understanding 'Kill' and 'Murder' in Biblical Commands." If you read it, you'll see there are different types of enemies. You make a common mistake by not considering who Jesus was addressing, in what context, and for what purpose when He said, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:44). My focus is on the Jewish context of Jesus’ sermon and how His contemporaries, familiar with the Torah in Hebrew, understood His words.

Jesus spoke these words in the Sermon on the Mount, addressing a crowd that included Pharisees, scribes, and their followers, many of whom "hated Him without cause" (John 15:25, quoting Psalm 69:4). In this context, Jesus was speaking to those who saw Him as a sanē (נַאֲךָ), a personal opponent, per the Torah (Proverbs 25:21: "If your enemy is hungry, give him bread"). He said, "Though you see Me as sanē (נַאֲךָ), you must love Me, as the Law commands." Jews couldn’t view Him as an oyev (איב), a military or external enemy like the Romans. Jesus said nothing new; He reiterated the Torah known to His audience.

The tragedy and immorality lie in this: these Jews, seeing Him as sanē (נַאֲךָ), handed Him over to the Romans, the oyev (איב), Israel’s external enemies. This was an unprecedented crime for Jews. In Jewish thought, using an oyev (איב), like the Romans, to deal with a sanē (נַאֲךָ) was unthinkable—comparable to a Jew in Nazi Germany betraying another Jew to Hitler, the oyev (איב). This act was a monstrous moral crime, incomprehensible without the full Gospel context.

P.S. You need to read not only the New Testament but the entire Bible. And it’s not enough to just read the Bible—you must study and understand it.

 

[Chrysostomos]

You said,So the difference is not that we should love our enemies, but to pray for them.

Matthew 5:44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

The phrase "love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44) is often misunderstood, much like the commandment "You shall not murder" (Exod. 20:13).
Ignorant or deceptive preachers claim "do not murder" means never killing under any circumstances, ignoring that God, shortly after giving this commandment, sanctioned the killing of military enemies (oyev) and lawbreaking criminals (harag, Deut. 13:9).
Similarly, "love your enemies" is misapplied to all adversaries, including military foes, criminals, or God’s enemies like blasphemers, when it specifically refers to personal enemies (sanē, Prov. 25:21). This misinterpretation distorts God’s call for justice, falsely suggesting mercy extends to those under divine judgment.

The commandment "You shall not murder" (Exod. 20:13) prohibits unlawful killing, specifically denoted by the Hebrew word raṣaḥ, which refers to criminal or premeditated murder, including unintentional cases (Num. 35:16-31). This distinguishes it from lawful killing in war or execution, described by harag or mot (Num. 31:7; Deut. 13:9). The Septuagint uses phoneuō for murder and thanatoō for lawful killing, reinforcing this distinction. English translations like NIV and ESV reflect this, using "murder" for raṣaḥ and "kill" for harag in contexts like war or punishment.

In Matthew 5:44, Jesus commands, "Love your enemies," referring to personal enemies (sanē in Prov. 25:21, quoted in Rom. 12:20), such as adversaries or haters, whom we should feed and bless.
For instance, the apostle quotes from Proverbs, so one can always compare Perverted Preachers foolishness and the translation with the word of God in Hebrew.
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him bread" (Prov. 25:21). These are the very words the apostle quotes in Greek in his letter to the Romans (Rom. 12:20). What word is used for "enemy" in Hebrew? It is called "sanē" (נַאֲךָ)—"hater, adversary, personal enemy."
Personal enemies (sanē): Love and do good to them, as Jesus teaches.

However, this does not extend to all types of enemies:
Military enemies (oyev, Exod. 15:9): These are not included in the call to love; they may face destruction in war.

Criminals (murderers, lawbreakers): The guilty, such as those committing raṣaḥ, must be punished (harag, Deut. 13:9) as a divine command, not spared or shown kindness.

Enemies of God (blasphemers, sorcerers, etc.): These are subject to divine judgment, not personal love or mercy.
Exodus 22:18 (NIV): "Do not allow a sorceress to live."
Leviticus 24:16 (NIV): "Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death."

Thus, while we are to love personal enemies (sanē), military enemies (oyev), criminals, and God’s enemies (like blasphemers) are subject to justice or destruction, not compassion. The command to love does not negate the obligation to uphold justice against the guilty.

And no Perverted Preachers nonsense about doing good to murderers or military enemies and love Satan and his followers

Read more in the topic: "Do Not Murder vs. You Must Kill: Understanding 'Kill' and 'Murder' in Biblical Commands"

 

[Chrysostomos]

It is not God's divine ingathering, but the revealing of "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Which is not about that one son, about one man of sin, but about his body among the body of Christ--as the tares among the wheat--each being many.

The prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2:3–4 is directly linked to the prophecy in Revelation 2:9:
“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.”

The “man of sin, the son of perdition” will present himself as God, while the “synagogue of Satan” claims to be Jews but are not, lying instead.
These are the very tares sown by Satan.

As Jesus said: “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted” (Matthew 15:13).

 

[Chrysostomos]

Yes! So the difference is not that we should love our enemies, but to pray for them, for we too were once enemies of God--which is the measure of love that is assigned to us, beyond which matters are in God's hands and not ours.

The command to "love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44) refers specifically to personal enemies (sanē), as seen in Proverbs 25:21 and Romans 12:20, where we are to feed and bless them. It does not apply to military enemies (oyev), criminals, or enemies of God like sorcerers, blasphemers, or Satanists, who face divine judgment or death (you must harag the guilty, and let your hand not spare him, Deut. 13:9; Exod. 22:18; Lev. 24:16).

John 3:36 is clear: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

Jesus saves us from God’s wrath, which abides on those who reject Him, including God’s enemies. How, then, are we to love military foes, lawbreakers, or blatant blasphemers under God’s wrath?

Moreover, Jesus Himself provides an exception even for personal enemies.
In Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV), He instructs that if a brother sins against you and refuses to repent, even after church intervention, "treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

Tax collectors, though Jewish, were collaborators with Rome, treated as outsiders, not personal enemies to be loved or fed.
Thus, Jesus explicitly allows us to treat an unrepentant fellow believer who sins against us personally as an external enemy, not requiring love or kindness.

Read more in the topic: "Do Not Murder vs. You Must Kill: Understanding 'Kill' and 'Murder' in Biblical Commands"

 

[Chrysostomos]

‘Let’s try it again.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world of unsaved people?


Yes, God loves the world.

No, God doesn’t love the world.

You’re pulling John 3:16 out of context, ignoring the rest of the chapter. Why can’t you read the entire chapter of John 3 to the end? Why can’t you go beyond John 3:16?

God’s love in John 3:16 is not a blanket affirmation of universal salvation. It’s a conditional offer: salvation through faith in Christ alone (Acts 4:12). Those who reject Him remain under God’s wrath, as John 3 clearly states.

Your implication aligns with the heresy of apokatastasis, the belief that all will ultimately be saved, including the unsaved. This was condemned at the Fifth Ecumenical Council (Second Council of Constantinople, 553 AD) because it contradicts Scripture’s teaching on eternal judgment (Matt. 25:46; Rev. 20:10–15) and the necessity of faith in Christ (John 14:6). Apokatastasis, championed by figures like Origen, undermines free will, the reality of sin, and God’s justice, suggesting that even those who actively reject Christ—like blasphemers, sorcerers, or unrepentant sinners (Exod. 22:18; Lev. 24:16)—will be restored. This nullifies the cross’s purpose and Christ’s warnings about eternal punishment. God’s love doesn’t negate His wrath against those who choose darkness over light. To claim otherwise distorts the Gospel and dismisses the clear testimony of John 3 and beyond.

 

[JLB]

You’re pulling John 3:16 out of context, ignoring the rest of the chapter.

I asked you a simple question.

Either you will choose to answer it or you won’t.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world of unsaved people?


Yes, God loves the world.

Or

No, God doesn’t love the world.

 

[Chrysostomos]

There are many secrets in this world that we don't know.

For example, many UFO and alien sighting reports have been deliberately fabricated to make it seem as if God is an alien with high-tech and immortality. I have seen a lot of such cases and feel that someone is intentionally distorting people's faith, just as they know God exists but still rebel against Him.

Another time, I saw a miracle in the sky in front of a supermarket. There were cameras at the entrance of the supermarket, but soon after that, the supermarket was demolished.The demolished supermarket was not torn down for real estate development.
Can you tell me if this is a coincidence?

I just think people are deceived by something, and that is the real enemy.

In my view, belief in UFOs is, so to speak, another denomination of atheism. Talk about UFOs became widespread in the second half of the 20th century, and this is no coincidence. The "theory of evolution" might have held some relevance in the 19th century and perhaps up to the first half of the 20th century, before the discovery of DNA, before we understood the incredible complexity of the living cell, and before grasping the intricacies of biochemistry. Before we realized the fine-tuning of the Solar System and how the complex programming of DNA was designed to match this fine-tuning. In other words, the microcosm is precisely calibrated to align with the fine-tuning of the macrocosm. Everything is interconnected and delicately balanced. Frankly, even atheists no longer believe in the "theory of evolution" today.

Darwin is suffering a crushing defeat. This is despite the fact that evolutionary scientists are paid enormous sums and given millions for research to prove the "theory of evolution," yet they can’t do it, even with all that funding. A transnational shadow government has mandated the inclusion of the "theory of evolution" in school curricula worldwide, employing unprecedented administrative resources to push their atheistic propaganda. But even that hasn’t worked.

Truth has a way of being persuasive. Any creationist scientist, driven purely by enthusiasm, can dismantle the "theory of evolution" with ease. Just consider a few names that immediately come to mind: Stephen Meyer, Dr. James Tour, Dr. John Lennox, and Ken Ham.

Even atheists now acknowledge that life could not have arisen by chance.

Even Richard Dawkins (the British ethologist, zoologist, science popularizer, atheist, humanist, and critic of Abrahamic religions, particularly Christianity) admits the following:

For life to emerge, a self-replicating molecule is necessary.
Dawkins believes that life could not have arisen by chance.
Biochemistry shows signs of design, pointing to the existence of a higher intelligence.
Biochemistry and molecular biology suggest the creation of a system by a higher intelligence.
Information and codes cannot arise naturally.
Dawkins suggests that extraterrestrials could have created life on Earth.

Now, the extraterrestrial origin of life will likely become the main theory for atheists—or at the very least, their primary "backup" theory for the origin of life.

 

[Chrysostomos]

I asked you a simple question.

Either you will choose to answer it or you won’t.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world of unsaved people?


Yes, God loves the world.

Or

No, God doesn’t love the world.

You can ask your question another 1000 times—the answer won’t change.

God’s love in John 3:16 is a conditional offer of salvation through faith in Christ alone, extended to a fallen world, but those who reject Him remain condemned and under wrath, as John 3:18–20 and 3:36 clearly state: “Whoever does not believe stands condemned already” and “God’s wrath remains on them.”

Even in John 3:16 itself, it says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
The key is “whoever believes in Him.” Salvation is explicitly for those who believe in Jesus Christ, not for the unsaved who reject Him.

 

[Lizbeth]

I think it will help you if you read the New Testament before joining a Bible discussion.
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Amen. As long we realize that loving our enemies and showing kindness to them, repaying evil with good etc, does not mean to be unequally yoked with them. And nor does it mean to hold back on pointing out their wrong for their good if the situation calls for it.

 

[JLB]

You can ask your question another 1000 times—the answer won’t change.

You have not answered.

You keep talking around the question, without answering my question.

You keep slinging other scriptures at the question, all the while dodging my actual question.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world of unsaved people?


Yes, God loves the world.

Or

No, God doesn’t love the world.

 

[Chrysostomos]

You have not answered.

You keep talking around the question, without answering my question.

You keep slinging other scriptures at the question, all the while dodging my actual question.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world of unsaved people?


Yes, God loves the world.

Or

No, God doesn’t love the world.

You’re not just pulling John 3:16 out of the chapter’s context—you’re ripping the phrase “God so loved the world” out of the verse itself.

Even within the single sentence of John 3:16, the answer is crystal clear: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” The key is “whoever believes in Him.” Salvation is only for those who believe in Christ, not for every unsaved person rejecting Him.

If you read the rest of John 3, it’s even plainer. John 3:18–20 and 3:36 (NIV) state: “Whoever does not believe stands condemned already” and “whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.” God’s love in John 3:16 is an offer of salvation to a fallen world, but those who refuse Christ remain under His wrath.

What’s unclear?

 

[ProverbsInPink]

You are correct in principle, but it is as I had already explained: To pray for our enemies is to love them--which is love to and for them, but not of them.

I'm right in scripture.
You're defending as right that what was actually, and as evidenced by the posted passage,wrong.

 

[Chrysostomos]

That’d be one thing if Zionists kept their agenda separate from Christianity, pushing a purely political or ideological program that had nothing to do with our faith. But instead, they’re hijacking Christianity with their propaganda, distorting its message and occupying nearly the entire Christian media space.
In essence, Zionists are stealing from God.

Listen to the parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard, put a fence around it, dug a winepress in it, built a tower, and leased it to vinedressers before going away. When the wicked vinedressers killed his servants and even his son, the landowner came and put those evildoers to a miserable death, giving the vineyard to other vinedressers who promised to render him its fruit in due season.

But after some time, bandits and thieves—a gang of impostors—came, loudly proclaiming, “We are the true vinedressers! The landowner promised this vineyard to us!” They lied, claiming to be chosen, but their hearts were full of greed. These impostors attacked the new vinedressers the landowner had appointed. Some they killed, others they bound and gagged to silence their cries for help. The thieves plundered the vineyard, stealing its fruit, taking all they could, and leaving it desolate, thus robbing the landowner himself.

So, when the landowner returns, what will he do with these thieves and impostors? He will put them to a miserable death and cast them into the lake of fire burning with brimstone, along with Satan who inspired their lies, as it is written: “The devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:10).

 

[Chrysostomos]

“For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.”
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

 

[Lizbeth]

“For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.”
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

Just as long as we don't forget that they are loved on account of the patriarchs and that Paul himself could have wished himself accursed that his countrymen might be saved. It also helps to know that Gentiles wouldn't have done any better if we had been in their shoes....the whole point was to show the depth and intractable nature of sin, that it required/s a razing to the roots of it. Israel "died" in childbirth as it were, in giving birth to the Messiah, and Rachel dying in giving birth to Benjamin foreshadowed this. But now they may receive mercy by our mercy, thankfully, whosoever will of them. No one straight way having tasted the old wine desires the new.......they were blinded in part until the gospel was established among the Gentiles, but now they are free in that sense to receive the gospel ever since. I even wonder if because there are many unnatural branches being broken off in this falling away of the church, whether it is making room for more natural branches to be grafted back in.

 

[HealthyShape]

Just as long as we don't forget that they are loved on account of the patriarchs and that Paul himself could have wished himself accursed that his countrymen might be saved. It also helps to know that Gentiles wouldn't have done any better if we had been in their shoes....the whole point was to show the depth and intractable nature of sin, that it required/s a razing to the roots of it. Israel "died" in childbirth as it were, in giving birth to the Messiah, and Rachel dying in giving birth to Benjamin foreshadowed this. But now they may receive mercy by our mercy, thankfully, whosoever will of them. No one straight way having tasted the old wine desires the new.......they were blinded in part until the gospel was established among the Gentiles, but now they are free in that sense to receive the gospel ever since. I even wonder if because there are many unnatural branches being broken off in this falling away of the church, whether it is making room for more natural branches to be grafted back in.

Who would you call to be a natural branch, 2,000 years after Christ, after the final judgement over Jerusalem and Israel?

It seems that people born in Christian nations are much more natural branches of the kingdom of God than people with some portion of Palestinian genes, but after two millennia of unbelief. And plenty of today's Jews are just Euro-Asian converts to Judaism, genetically much less original Jews than today' Palestinians.

 

[Lizbeth]

Who would you call to be a natural branch, 2,000 years after Christ, after the final judgement over Jerusalem and Israel?

It seems that people born in Christian nations are much more natural branches of the kingdom of God than people with some portion of Palestinian genes, but after two millennia of unbelief. And plenty of today's Jews are just European converts to Judaism, genetically much less original Jews than today' Palestinians.

I think God knows who they are. The Jews stuck together in the diaspora for the most part, because of not being particularly welcomed wherever they went, including periodic persecutions.