Should Nations help Immigrants and the Poor?

[Richard Aberdeen]

Apparently to justify their undying support of the Republican so-called 'free' market agenda, Evangelical and other conservative Christian leaders have invented an axiom seemingly taught religiously to their congregations, that only individuals and, not nations collectively, should help the sick and poor.

Fortunately for the sick and poor and, unfortunately for those who promote such nonsense, various prophets in the Bible and God himself seem to have the opposite opinion. Rather than debate with folks who apparently believe Jesus was a capitalist, let's see what the Bible actually says about this:

In Leviticus 23, God commands the nation of Israel: "When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger. . ."

From Wikipedia: "On one of the two occasions that this is stated in Leviticus, it adds that in vineyards, some grapes should be left ungathered, a statement also found in Deuteronomy. These verses additionally command that olive trees should not be beaten on multiple occasions, and whatever remains from the first set of beatings should be left. . . Deuteronomy commands that it should be left for widows, strangers, and paternal orphans."

Imagine if in the modern United States, 10% or even 5% of all taxation was devoted annually to house and feed the poor. Soon enough, there would be no poor people left to house and feed. Or, imagine if 10% of all monies collected by religious organizations was earmarked annually for helping the poor. Likely the same result would soon occur.

Both Malachi 3:6 and Zecharia 7:10 warn us not to oppress immigrants and the poor but rather, help them. In Exodus 22, unlike the Trump and Biden administration, God says: "you shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him. . ." And, God is strongly against charging any interest to the poor, rather than the 30% plus often charged by modern capitalist banks.

Jesus in the New Testament, teaches us to take the stranger in, rather than build a wall to keep poor refugees out and far worse, deliberately separate immigrant children from their weeping parent's arms. And in the so-called "dark" ages, it was considered barbaric to charge more than 5-6% interest.

According to the prophet Ezekiel (16:49), a primary reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because they were a proud and haughty people who refused to help the poor and needy. Virtually all of the prophets were angry with political leaders and the nations of Israel and Judah for not helping the needy, poor and oppressed and, for often making their lot worse, like the Republican agenda does in modern-day America.

In Nehemiah chapter 5, Isaiah 3 & 10, Jeremiah 7 & 22, Amos 6 & 8, Michah 2 & 3, Zephaniah 3 and Habakkuk 2, the prophets are angry with political leaders and the nations of Judah and/or Israel for not helping and worse, often harming the poor. Moses likewise admonishes the children of Israel as a collective nation, to open their hand to the poor and needy.

In the New Testament, early followers of Jesus shared all things in common, distributing to each according to need. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, the foundation of socialism is "to each according to need". Conservative Christian leaders call socialism "evil", even though the real followers of Jesus seem to have believed giving our excess to the poor is Godly, moral and correct.

Early "assemblies" of Jesus, that is groups of people, not buildings or religious organizations, often took up collections for the sick and poor. They seem to have forgotten to take up collections to build temples made with hands or for anything else that modern so-called 'churches' typically do.

It's rather difficult to imagine Jesus deliberately attempting to take healthcare away from the sick and poor, like Republicans have repeatedly tried to do. And, rather than attempt to list the myriad of places where Jesus teaches in both word and deed to help immigrants, the sick, the poor and the otherwise oppressed, it is perhaps wise to check out the four biographies of Jesus in the New Testament for our self.

Those who have been taught by religious leaders that only individuals and not nations should help immigrants, the poor and needy, have been lied to by wicked leaders who will answer to God Almighty for being against God's law and prophets.

 

[Armour of God]

I think governments should help the poor in their own nations.

As far as immigrants goes, our western nations were founded on Christianity, therefore only Christians should be accepted for immigration in my opinion.

We can see all over the world that immigrating people of other religions and cultures creates division and slowly kills our identity and culture.

The same reason why Japan, China and Korea don't allow immigrants that are white, black or Muslim. They want to preserve their culture and identity

If people must migrate then Asians should immigrate to Asian countries, Muslims to Muslim countries, Africans to African countries, etc. So that our culture and identity is preserved and to avoid ethnic cleansing

 

[stevesonthebay]

Apparently to justify their undying support of the Republican so-called 'free' market agenda, Evangelical and other conservative Christian leaders have invented an axiom seemingly taught religiously to their congregations, that only individuals and, not nations collectively, should help the sick and poor.

Fortunately for the sick and poor and, unfortunately for those who promote such nonsense, various prophets in the Bible and God himself seem to have the opposite opinion. Rather than debate with folks who apparently believe Jesus was a capitalist, let's see what the Bible actually says about this:

In Leviticus 23, God commands the nation of Israel: "When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger. . ."

From Wikipedia: "On one of the two occasions that this is stated in Leviticus, it adds that in vineyards, some grapes should be left ungathered, a statement also found in Deuteronomy. These verses additionally command that olive trees should not be beaten on multiple occasions, and whatever remains from the first set of beatings should be left. . . Deuteronomy commands that it should be left for widows, strangers, and paternal orphans."

The New Testament also says that Christians should help the poor, widows and orphans. This is a basic value of Christianity. But the world has their own idea of this. The early Christians were rebuked for not helping the Christian widows and orphans that were among them.

Imagine if in the modern United States, 10% or even 5% of all taxation was devoted annually to house and feed the poor.

Its already happening and its more than 5 or 10%. Around 40% of income through taxes goes to helping the welfare State.

Soon enough, there would be no poor people left to house and feed. Or, imagine if 10% of all monies collected by religious organizations was earmarked annually for helping the poor. Likely the same result would soon occur.

Chruches and charities have for a long time supported the poor from their own money and no or little help from the State. If it was not for Christian charities throughout history society would be in a much worse situation.

Both Malachi 3:6 and Zecharia 7:10 warn us not to oppress immigrants and the poor but rather, help them.

Yes God uses the experience of the Isrealites enslaved in Egypt to not treat others that way.

In Exodus 22, unlike the Trump and Biden administration, God says: "you shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him. . ." And, God is strongly against charging any interest to the poor, rather than the 30% plus often charged by modern capitalist banks.

The modern world is different to the ancient world which had slavery and the like. Nations were yet to be established. Isreal went on to become a nation.

They had certain criteria and belief for that nation which God forbid they mix with other cultures. God punished them when they invited and mixed with the Canaanites and their pagan beliefs and idols.

Jesus in the New Testament, teaches us to take the stranger in, rather than build a wall to keep poor refugees out and far worse, deliberately separate immigrant children from their weeping parent's arms. And in the so-called "dark" ages, it was considered barbaric to charge more than 5-6% interest.

Are you saying we should not have borders and just allow millions to cross into whatever nation they want in todays climate of waring ideologies. I would say that allowing millions who have an opposing belief to Christianity is actually undermining Christianity. Is that what God wants ?.

According to the prophet Ezekiel (16:49), a primary reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because they were a proud and haughty people who refused to help the poor and needy. Virtually all of the prophets were angry with political leaders and the nations of Israel and Judah for not helping the needy, poor and oppressed and, for often making their lot worse, like the Republican agenda does in modern-day America.

Yeah they wiped out most of the Canaanites and other (ites) to ensure they were not taken over by them. Or are you saying they should have helped them to succeed thus destroying themselves in the process.

In Nehemiah chapter 5, Isaiah 3 & 10, Jeremiah 7 & 22, Amos 6 & 8, Michah 2 & 3, Zephaniah 3 and Habakkuk 2, the prophets are angry with political leaders and the nations of Judah and/or Israel for not helping and worse, often harming the poor. Moses likewise admonishes the children of Israel as a collective nation, to open their hand to the poor and needy.

He also wiped out other cultures who were a threat to Isreal by Gods command.

I think this is about treating those who were already within Isreal. Or the dominant cultures Isreal was under and being a good example. But not Isreal inviting people into their nation conflicting cultures to then allow them to undermine their belief and nation. This is conflating two seperate issues.

In the New Testament, early followers of Jesus shared all things in common, distributing to each according to need. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, the foundation of socialism is "to each according to need".

That is not socialism. Socialism is a political ideology that conflicts with Christianity. This is just picking out a similar value. But they have different means and ideas of achieving those values.

Conservative Christian leaders call socialism "evil", even though the real followers of Jesus seem to have believed giving our excess to the poor is Godly, moral and correct.

Thats because socialism is evil. Its a world ideology made by man and not God. Look at the results of socialism. Even without Christians its caused much harm. There is only one truth and thats Christianity under Christ.

It entails much more than just citing good values. It is an ideological belief about who we are , who is God and how society should be ordered. For one socialim is a human made political ideology that rejects God. Like feminism, marxism, communism and the like.

Early "assemblies" of Jesus, that is groups of people, not buildings or religious organizations, often took up collections for the sick and poor. They seem to have forgotten to take up collections to build temples made with hands or for anything else that modern so-called 'churches' typically do.

This I can agree with. If anything the church has become more like the world of secular ideas and beliefs. The problem with all these secular ideologies is that they exist to make the world better rather than Gods kingdom or the gospel. They are the very anti idea that is opposed to Christianity ideologically.

It's rather difficult to imagine Jesus deliberately attempting to take healthcare away from the sick and poor, like Republicans have repeatedly tried to do. And, rather than attempt to list the myriad of places where Jesus teaches in both word and deed to help immigrants, the sick, the poor and the otherwise oppressed, it is perhaps wise to check out the four biographies of Jesus in the New Testament for our self.

This sounds more like politics than any truth of how we should be as a society or nation. Attacking rep gave it away.

Those who have been taught by religious leaders that only individuals and not nations should help immigrants, the poor and needy, have been lied to by wicked leaders who will answer to God Almighty for being against God's law and prophets.

Western nations have always helped other nations. The fact that most nations who are struggling want to come to western nations is testimony to this fact. There are no other nations that will do the same. In fact they kill Christians and anyone different.

Now they want to take over the west. The western Christian culture is the only thing that has helped the world. It needs to be saved and supported rather than undermined. Its a misrepresentation to make out that western nations are the bad guys and all these other cultures are the good ones and victims.

But in recent years as populations have grown and the growth of anti God and Christ ideology a war is forming between dark forces and principalities over what is the true way.

Its now a case of saving the little that is left before its completely turned on its head. Which would mean like when God commanded Isreal to purge itself of evil pagan ideologies so that it would not destroy the entire nation of Gods people. But rather now we have legal ways through vetting those who come in so that they align with the western worldview.

 

[ScottA]

Yeah, yeah...and Jesus said if you don't have a sword go buy one, you should engage in usury...yadda, yadda!

The thing is..."To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven"--and being responsible and considering the full outcome of every seemingly charitable circumstance, is called for now more than ever. Knowledge has increase, tribulations have become greater, and so has evil activity--especially among the easiest victims. And it's not just that we now have to be more careful not to give money to a junkie to go by more drugs. But no, look at all the FRAUD. They have just begun to uncover the evil going on among all the would-be "good causes."

But, yeah, sure, we should be biblically charitable. But that does not mean opening up to all the evils--and yes, we should put on our own oxygen mask before helping others. And stop being all political about it--stop pointing the finger, and take care of the log in your own home. If you want to feed the hungry, or leave your doors unlocked, have no fences, invite the homeless to stay over, and run a chow line--go for it--start at home--your place...maybe it will catch on.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

I think governments should help the poor in their own nations.

As far as immigrants goes, our western nations were founded on Christianity, therefore only Christians should be accepted for immigration in my opinion.

We can see all over the world that immigrating people of other religions and cultures creates division and slowly kills our identity and culture.

The same reason why Japan, China and Korea don't allow immigrants that are white, black or Muslim. They want to preserve their culture and identity

If people must migrate then Asians should immigrate to Asian countries, Muslims to Muslim countries, Africans to African countries, etc. So that our culture and identity is preserved and to avoid ethnic cleansing

The United States was founded on capitalism and the backs of human slavery. Nothing "christian" about it. There is no capitalism in the New Testament and Jesus says he came to set the slaves free.

American slavery was what is called "chattel slavery", where slaves were defined by law as "property", had no hope of ever being free and could legally be beaten, raped, tortured and murdered by their masters; among the worst forms of slavery known to history. Millions of slaves died on the voyage to the Americas and many others died soon after landing, as much as 40% of the slaves on board of a ship.

A nation that fears God does not allow slavery, nor does it mass deport immigrants, nor does it engage in "pre-emptive" wars, nor does it allow citizens to be homeless, nor does it not ensure healthcare for everyone within its borders. The U.S. is not a Godly nation and never has been. It has only become more wicked under Trump.

 

[Armour of God]

The United States was founded on capitalism and the backs of human slavery. Nothing "christian" about it. There is no capitalism in the New Testament and Jesus says he came to set the slaves free.

American slavery was what is called "chattel slavery", where slaves were defined by law as "property", had no hope of ever being free and could legally be beaten, raped, tortured and murdered by their masters; among the worst forms of slavery known to history. Millions of slaves died on the voyage to the Americas and many others died soon after landing, as much as 40% of the slaves on board of a ship.

A nation that fears God does not allow slavery, nor does it mass deport immigrants, nor does it engage in "pre-emptive" wars, nor does it allow citizens to be homeless, nor does it not ensure healthcare for everyone within its borders. The U.S. is not a Godly nation and never has been. It has only become more wicked under Trump.

I'm not American but.
Your complaining about history.
That can't be changed.

The fact that your country was founded by the British under their laws and morals makes it a Christisn nation. Slavery can be found all over the bible, nothing new by America. Besides that was abolished a long time ago anyway so there's no use still complaining about it.

You seem to be complaining about capitalism. Do you have a better option? You have one of the best countries in the world and your complaining about it. Geez.

Every American president has been involved in wars, allowed citizens to be homless and had a crap healthcare system. Nothing new about any of that.
The fact that Trump has taken care of illegal immigrants I would say is a good thing for your country.

Aside from that I stand by everything I said, I'm speaking for my nation in particular, Australia. Help the poor in our country. Minimise immigration, especially from other cultures with opposing values

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

I'm not American but.
Your complaining about history.
That can't be changed.

The fact that your country was founded by the British under their laws and morals makes it a Christisn nation. Slavery can be found all over the bible, nothing new by America. Besides that was abolished a long time ago anyway so there's no use still complaining about it.

You seem to be complaining about capitalism. Do you have a better option? You have one of the best countries in the world and your complaining about it. Geez.

Every American president has been involved in wars, allowed citizens to be homless and had a crap healthcare system. Nothing new about any of that.
The fact that Trump has taken care of illegal immigrants I would say is a good thing for your country.

Aside from that I stand by everything I said, I'm speaking for my nation in particular, Australia. Help the poor in our country. Minimise immigration, especially from other cultures with opposing values

I agree that history can't be changed. I was responding to someone who claims the U.S. was founded on Christian principles, which obviously it was not. Every American president has not been involved in wars, John Quincy Adams, Obama and Biden, as examples. But even if that were true, it is irrelevant to what Jesus commands us to do.

America hasn't learned anything from history. We continue to lose wars, from Vietnam forward, which should never have been waged in the first place.

 

[CrowCross]

The United States was founded on capitalism and the backs of human slavery. Nothing "christian" about it. There is no capitalism in the New Testament and Jesus says he came to set the slaves free.

Slaves to humanity or slaves to sin?

 

[Bob]

California's homeless population has significantly increased over the past decade, growing from approximately 114,000 in 2014 to at least 187,084 in 2024. This represents a rise of about 73,000 individuals, highlighting a worsening homelessness crisis despite substantial government spending (per Hoover Institute and Stanford University).

How many able-bodied individuals have opted for government handouts instead of supporting themselves? The Apostle Paul was clear about such individuals not asking for charity.

In addition, millions of dollars of fraud have been uncovered there and other states just this year.

The lure of social spending by governments, which promise to take care of needy people, has always been found to be lacking because the spending is inefficient (if not fraudulent), and results in increasingly higher tax rates.

Argentina said “no” several years ago, and a number of other South American countries have followed in the past year. Argentina can cite decreasing poverty and a dynamic economy as a result. Even ChIna has realized that a free market (or at least freer one) grows an economy and lifts more people out of poverty.

Christians are called to help the needy, as an individual responsibility, and that should always be the primary focus.

 

[Armour of God]

I agree that history can't be changed. I was responding to someone who claims the U.S. was founded on Christian principles, which obviously it was not. Every American president has not been involved in wars, John Quincy Adams, Obama and Biden, as examples. But even if that were true, it is irrelevant to what Jesus commands us to do.

America hasn't learned anything from history. We continue to lose wars, from Vietnam forward, which should never have been waged in the first place.

Obama was heavily involved in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You obviously don't know your history very well

 

[CrowCross]

Does this verse apply...."For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat." 2nd Thes 3:10

 

[Bob]

Immigration: open borders?

Assume Congress passed a new immigration law that said, “Anyone anywhere in the world who wants to come to the U.S., to study, work, visit, play, hangout, kindly fill out a Visa Application, and if you pass a health and a security check, then welcome!”

Next: You are in charge of a staff that reviews security checks.

Question: what might be revealed that would give you pause in issuing a Visa (at least until additional information surfaced)?

Possibilities: connections to gun running? Drug running? Sex trafficking? Gang membership? Contraband smuggling (e.g., elephant ivory, exotic endangered animals)? Terrorist activities?

Is the point of this “What if” clear?

Peace.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Slaves to humanity or slaves to sin?

Slavery is based on the love of wealth and is caused by human sin. The slave trade of 17th - 19th centuries was one of the most profitable and possibly the most profitable enterprise in human history. Wealth nations today are wealthy primarily because of this global slave trade.

American slavery was "chattel slavery", where slaves were called "property" under the law and, had no rights or hope of freedom. A slave owner could beat, rape, torture and murder a slave with impunity; children and spouses were often sold separately and separated for life from each other. It remains one of the worst forms of slavery known to history.

 

[Bob]

Slavery is based on the love of wealth and is caused by human sin. The slave trade of 17th - 19th centuries was one of the most profitable and possibly the most profitable enterprise in human history. Wealth nations today are wealthy primarily because of this global slave trade.

American slavery was "chattel slavery", where slaves were called "property" under the law and, had no rights or hope of freedom. A slave owner could beat, rape, torture and murder a slave with impunity; children and spouses were often sold separately and separated for life from each other. It remains one of the worst forms of slavery known to history.

Nations are wealthier today, and we have a higher standard of living, because more efficient mechanization has replaced human labor. Wherever human labor is still employed, when a machine would increase the productivity many-fold, society is poorer.

During the Great Depression, special government projects employed hundreds of people with shovels. Milton Friedman, awarded the Nobel Prize in Economics, asked a foreman on one project why existing mechanized labor wasn’t used instead. The foreman replied that the whole purpose of the project was to employ many people, period. Friedman replied, “So, think of how many more you could hire if you gave them spoons instead of shovels.”

Blessings.

 

[CrowCross]

Slavery is based on the love of wealth and is caused by human sin. The slave trade of 17th - 19th centuries was one of the most profitable and possibly the most profitable enterprise in human history. Wealth nations today are wealthy primarily because of this global slave trade.

American slavery was "chattel slavery", where slaves were called "property" under the law and, had no rights or hope of freedom. A slave owner could beat, rape, torture and murder a slave with impunity; children and spouses were often sold separately and separated for life from each other. It remains one of the worst forms of slavery known to history.

You still didn't answer the question....Slaves to humanity or slaves to sin?

The question was in refrence to Jesus saying...in the New Testament Jesus says he came to set the slaves free.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Nations are wealthier today, and we have a higher standard of living, because more efficient mechanization has replaced human labor. Wherever human labor is still employed, when a machine would increase the productivity many-fold, society is poorer.

During the Great Depression, special government projects employed hundreds of people with shovels. Milton Friedman, awarded the Nobel Prize in Economics, asked a foreman on one project why existing mechanized labor wasn’t used instead. The foreman replied that the whole purpose of the project was to employ many people, period. Friedman replied, “So, think of how many more you could hire if you gave them spoons instead of shovels.”

Blessings.

Every historian I am aware of agrees that the slave trade is highly responsible for the wealth of modern nations. The global slave trade was the greatest generator of wealth known at the time. The world still has millions of literal slaves and many millions more of economic slaves, who are trapped in low-wage situations with no hope of progressing upward.

 

[Bob]

Every historian I am aware of agrees that the slave trade is highly responsible for the wealth of modern nations. The global slave trade was the greatest generator of wealth known at the time. The world still has millions of literal slaves and many millions more of economic slaves, who are trapped in low-wage situations with no hope of progressing upward.

Not sure what your point is now. Are you justifying slavery because of any wealth it produces?

Technically, all of our riches today are because humans began a decisive transition from hunter-gathering to agriculture & animal husbandry over 10,000 years ago. Of Course, Romans became wealthy through slavery (swapping wine for Gaulish slaves), but that dissipated after the fall.

Meanwhile, California’s marijuana industry is built on the backs of illegal immigrants. It is CA that imposed ultra-high minimum wages and proceeded to pay illegal aliens far less in the form of cash under the table.

Peace.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Not sure what your point is now. Are you justifying slavery because of any wealth it produces?

Technically, all of our riches today are because humans began a decisive transition from hunter-gathering to agriculture & animal husbandry over 10,000 years ago. Of Course, Romans became wealthy through slavery (swapping wine for Gaulish slaves), but that dissipated after the fall.

Meanwhile, California’s marijuana industry is built on the backs of illegal immigrants. It is CA that imposed ultra-high minimum wages and proceeded to pay illegal aliens far less in the form of cash under the table.

Peace.

Of course I'm against slavery, why would you ask otherwise? There is no such thing as an "Illegal" human being. We literally stole land from Mexico, which they stole from Natives. God owns the earth, we are just the caretakers, however horrible of a job we are doing, with a president who could care less what kind of habitat we leave for our children.

 

[Bob]

Of course I'm against slavery, why would you ask otherwise? There is no such thing as an "Illegal" human being. We literally stole land from Mexico, which they stole from Natives. God owns the earth, we are just the caretakers, however horrible of a job we are doing, with a president who could care less what kind of habitat we leave for our children.

A careful review of American and World history yields a substantially different picture.

To begin, nearly all of the land in the Americas was once occupied by Natives. That is, all of the inhabited land had a network of boundaries defended by various tribes. The boundaries were not static, but altered considerably as regional climates changed and strong tribes pushed weaker tribes away and out. It was a land of “might makes right“ (the idea of “property rights” was unknown).

The forced migrations and reoccupations in the Americas occurred many times as well on the world stage. For example, the original Britons were overrun by Celts, who in turn were overrun by Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, etc., who in turn were conquered by the Normans. Surely you are familiar with the world history of migrations and newly occupied land.

In turn, America now occupies all of this land, and we now have property rights as part of our Constitution. One reads about celebrities regurgitating the “stolen land” mantra, but strangely none have offered to give up personal ownership of their mansions.

The term “illegal alien“ is written into established law. We have borders and require permission before a non-citizen enters. (It have written elsewhere in this thread about the need for border security, no matter how many Visas we want to offer.)

Do you prefer term like trespasser? If someone enters your home without your permission, he is a trespasser, he is breaking established law, and he is there illegally.

The current Administration believes that conservation is served best by land owners, not bureaucrats.

Peace.